The 60s are over ,we need to rein in the
EPA extremist to have steam & coal &manufacturing ,rant off long live coal & steam
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
OK, everybody except csshegewish (how do you pronounce that anyway?) and Mr. Willison.
But they DO have excellent taste in diesels, I must admit! Honestly, I'd LOVE to see that old CNJ boxcab, Number 1000 at the B&O museum running myself.
Saw it a few years ago, you can still smell the diesel fuel!
Steam is impressive. But I would love to see a matched set of pa',s or Early e or f running too
Firelock76 I mean, doesn't EVERYBODY love steam?
I mean, doesn't EVERYBODY love steam?
Steam is something that I could take or leave. I'd be more impressed by a restoration of an Alco-GE-IR boxcab from the 1920's to operating condition.
Well, my son & I are headed to Cheyenne today for UP's open house-it will be interesting to see the progress on the locomotives!
A bit late to the party here, but steam locomotives are exempt from any EPA regulations concerning air pollution and have been for years.
EPA agents can fume about it all they want to, and we don't know that they want to, I mean, doesn't EVERYBODY love steam?
So relax everyone, the gummint's not going to bother any steam program over smoke output.
Mega-dittos on that. Bottom line is I am an 844 fan and hopefully the job being done ends up having it running like the proverbial Swiss watch so they can apply that knowledge and processes to the 4014 and then 3985. Omaha will get it right.
I could care less about the politics and personalities that seem to run rampant on the topic here. But, related somewhat, the Denver Post says 844 will be leading the Cheyenne Frontier Days train this year on July 23rd. Proof things are moving foreward?????
http://www.denverpost.com/news/local/ci_29863824/cheyenne-frontier-days-train-is-steaming-back-into-the-station
CwexExactly, and the fact that the UP didn't want to spend the $$$ for line side refueling stations. It was planned from the beginning to convert the 4014 to oil, otherwise it would be limited to traveling in Wyoming only.
I recall when the 3985 was stopped in Memphis in 1992 due to a blown draft air valve in her smoke box..She was refueled by tanker truck. The fuel used was 'Bunker Oil" at least that was what the delivering driver called it. [see the following link about Bunker Oil grades @ http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/bunker-oil-marine-fuel-oil/ ] This will help you figure out which grades they might use to fuel UPR Steam engines.
Supposedly, 'the story about #844 having problems on the road' was because she had been fueled with regular Diesel Fuel?? Not the heavier grades of available #5 or#6 bunker oils? Scuttlebutt?? Who knows??
My bet would be that whenever #844, #3985 or #4014 hit the road again; somebody in their entourages will be responsible for boiler water quality, and fuel quality, as well. [my2c]
I'm not surprised that the steam railroad era has been forgotten when you consider that the last vestiges of steam operation on American railroads were discontinued over fifty years ago. The last steam locomotive built for a Class One railroad left Roanoke shop in 1953. Nothing lasts forever.
The National Environmental Policy Act (which established the EPA) was a bi-partisan effort that was signed into law by President Nixon in 1972 or 1973. Clean air and water are not optional for human beings.
Stdgauge,
One other Public Relations issue of great importance I forgot to throw down in all this Evironmental Protection Agency discussion is the very nature of the cause!
ENVIRONMENTAL - PROTECTION
This liberal cause of celebration is the rally point for the politically correct order of liberal life and politics. The cause behind the Government legislation of clean air.
It is my firm belief in the growth of America to the present mindset that the AGE OF STEAM was entirely left behind in the minds of Americans. They do not know nor understand what STEAM is or what STEAM POWER was.
The average American does not know that when his car blows a radiator hose on the engine cooling system that STEAM from the radiator is not FIRE. Nor do they understand that steam has power and heat connected with it. Hence the passing of the formidable radiator cap that could blow off and and scald and burn the auto owner. There is a real general misunderstanding that a PRESSURE VESSEL like a steam boiler is a bomb in disguise or a repository for POWER. No rather they think of a steam railroad locomotive as a sort of large automobile with a DIRTY EXHAUST PIPE for a SMOKESTACK.
Consequently this is the PUBLIC RELATIONS PROBLEM:
THAT EXAUST STEAM IS WATER VAPOR CONDENSATION NOT AIR POLLUTION!
Steam railroading really NEEDS to project and communicate this point which we all take mostly for granted.
I am always shocked how much complaint a steam producing power plant gets for the steam mistaken for smoke. And of course the media is of no help here as they are more ignorant of technology than most of the public.
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We all need to be in public relations work on this subject.
Doc
The Boiler water regulation was the Final rule or the Final regulation and it was published in the Federal book of regulations in December of 2015 after 3 years of public comments and input from Steam Plant operators. It is the current regulation and was being discussed prior to 844 being taken out of service.
My guess is UP saw the writing on the wall and took agressive measures to show they can clean up the image of the program. Oh the EPA can and will regulate anything they want.
Dr D Stdgauge, The answer to your question is obviously that the passenger steam locomotive UP 844 has continually operated on the railroad since it was built and was never retired from active service. I can also see a clear case with the EPA that Union Pacific Railroad is modern Class 1 freight railroad and not "a historic steam train tourist operation." Further, the Federal Government just loves to fine corporations like Volkswagen billions of dollars for disagreements over the technical fulfillment of United States Laws. They would love to hit a Class 1 railroad with a million dollar enviornmental fine. This the Feds would not do to the Virginia & Truckee Nevada State tourist operation because it is a state supported historic railroad. In fact the Feds with the help of Democratic Senator Harry Reid have funded a part of the new main line for the V&T for historic purposes. I guarrantee you they are not going to fund another main line for Union Pacific unless they have to fight WWII all over again. No! The Union Pacific Railroad because it is a major corporation, will instead be held to a higher standard "above the rest" of all the small groups of steam operators that could pay them nothing if challenged. Union Pacific Railroad, must, for its own protection and preservation make sure it meets more than what would be the required EPA clean air and water standards. And to take a good look at what could be or going to or may be demand of them. The they will need to head off the Feds and get those EPA buracrats off their back permanantly! The best way to do that is a operate a perfect corporate steam locomotive, operated in absolutely the best politically correct fashion for the public joy, entertainment and public relations. I'm looking for some agressive boiler blowdown procedures in water reteavable locations and then monitoring the water for boiler condition of metals and chlorine by the railroad itself if they havn't already been doing this. To say nothing of improved maintaince procedures of boiler and firebox. So "say good by" the the air polluting smoking photo runbys of the past guys! They just get the everpresent enviornmentalists, and the local and national politicians, pissed off! I am also looking for high skill levels on the oil firing valves and the sanding the flues in the fan trip future and the use of some good clean burning anthracite coal and proper fire grate managment use in the coal burning locomotives like NW 611. ---------------------------- If the Republicans get in office I suspect the EPA will back off its agressive enviornmental issues and a return to some coal production will ensue. Obama has just about shut down the coal industry and Hilliary was promising to continue to shut it down if West Virginia doesn't stop her. Of course I think she is offering some alternative Fed sponsored employment for them. ------------------------ Just my take on it all! Doc
The answer to your question is obviously that the passenger steam locomotive UP 844 has continually operated on the railroad since it was built and was never retired from active service. I can also see a clear case with the EPA that Union Pacific Railroad is modern Class 1 freight railroad and not "a historic steam train tourist operation." Further, the Federal Government just loves to fine corporations like Volkswagen billions of dollars for disagreements over the technical fulfillment of United States Laws. They would love to hit a Class 1 railroad with a million dollar enviornmental fine.
This the Feds would not do to the Virginia & Truckee Nevada State tourist operation because it is a state supported historic railroad. In fact the Feds with the help of Democratic Senator Harry Reid have funded a part of the new main line for the V&T for historic purposes. I guarrantee you they are not going to fund another main line for Union Pacific unless they have to fight WWII all over again.
No! The Union Pacific Railroad because it is a major corporation, will instead be held to a higher standard "above the rest" of all the small groups of steam operators that could pay them nothing if challenged.
Union Pacific Railroad, must, for its own protection and preservation make sure it meets more than what would be the required EPA clean air and water standards. And to take a good look at what could be or going to or may be demand of them. The they will need to head off the Feds and get those EPA buracrats off their back permanantly!
The best way to do that is a operate a perfect corporate steam locomotive, operated in absolutely the best politically correct fashion for the public joy, entertainment and public relations.
I'm looking for some agressive boiler blowdown procedures in water reteavable locations and then monitoring the water for boiler condition of metals and chlorine by the railroad itself if they havn't already been doing this. To say nothing of improved maintaince procedures of boiler and firebox.
So "say good by" the the air polluting smoking photo runbys of the past guys! They just get the everpresent enviornmentalists, and the local and national politicians, pissed off!
I am also looking for high skill levels on the oil firing valves and the sanding the flues in the fan trip future and the use of some good clean burning anthracite coal and proper fire grate managment use in the coal burning locomotives like NW 611.
----------------------------
If the Republicans get in office I suspect the EPA will back off its agressive enviornmental issues and a return to some coal production will ensue. Obama has just about shut down the coal industry and Hilliary was promising to continue to shut it down if West Virginia doesn't stop her. Of course I think she is offering some alternative Fed sponsored employment for them.
------------------------
Just my take on it all!
Not taking political sides, but the causes of the decline of coal are more complex than your overly reductive statment. The growth of natural gas began prior to 2008 has been a significant factor in the utilities' declining use of coal for power generation.
Shadow the Cats owner Here is the Standard they are aiming to rebuild 844 4014 and 3985 to https://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=EPA-HQ-OW-2009-0819-5558 They want to Exceed even that according in quality. On the fuel issue it was a combo of Both Future EPA fears and possible CARB issues. Remember this about CARB they are trying to ban all non tier 2 locomotives from California right now. My information about why the UP is doing what they did is coming direct from the Steam shop employees the ones rebuilding the locomotives who would know why they are doing what they are doing it for. I will take that information from them rather than people that are not in there all the time.
Here is the Standard they are aiming to rebuild 844 4014 and 3985 to https://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=EPA-HQ-OW-2009-0819-5558 They want to Exceed even that according in quality.
On the fuel issue it was a combo of Both Future EPA fears and possible CARB issues. Remember this about CARB they are trying to ban all non tier 2 locomotives from California right now. My information about why the UP is doing what they did is coming direct from the Steam shop employees the ones rebuilding the locomotives who would know why they are doing what they are doing it for. I will take that information from them rather than people that are not in there all the time.
There a big difference between what the up I trying to than Dr d comparison to volkswsgon fines. The up is trying to operate a historical locomotive. Volkswsgon not only falsified document regarding its vehicles performance to the us government but mislead and lied to 10000's customers.
And the up can't be compared to a historical railroad because by its charter it us not.
I doubt if epa is going to shut down the up steam program.
Dr D If the Republicans get in office I suspect the EPA will back off its agressive enviornmental issues and a return to some coal production will ensue. Obama has just about shut down the coal industry and Hilliary was promising to continue to shut it down if West Virginia doesn't stop her. Of course I think she is offering some alternative Fed sponsored employment for them. ------------------------ Just my take on it all! Doc
When you consider that many municipalities banned leaf-burning quite a few years ago, San Francisco's proposed ban on wood-burning fireplaces should not be too surprising. Aside from the crud that they throw in the air, wood-burning fireplaces are also a potential fire hazard since a lot of chimneys rarely get swept.
Shadow the Cats ownerI looked up the New EPA guidelines for water treatment of Boilers in Steam engines since that was brought up. The UP had no choice but to change what they were doing as the Prior method was deemed a danger to the enviroment. So what do you do risk being fined possibly Millions of Dollars per excursion and have to stop or change to different process that complies with the EPA. Same thing with the Fuel Source going from Waste oil to #2 Diesel. Waste oil is contaminated with heavy metals like Lead and other things that you do not want people breathing in. Diesel fuel is a lot safer and eaiser to get your hands on. Also with waste oil there is always the chance it could be contaminated with Antifreeze so to comply they had to change fuel. Businesses have to adapt to keep up with regulations. If the UP wants to keep running Steam in the 21st Century they better keep the EPA happy or 844 3985 and 4014 are all going to end up stuffed and mounted on a track someplace.
1. What are all of the other successful steam operators that DON"T have boilers full of corrosive water and mud doing for water treatment if the old stuff was outlawed, and why does it work for them and not UP?
2. Please cite the exact EPA and/or FRA regulations that cover locomotive feed water.
3. Please cite the EPA and FRA regulations on steam locomotive fuel.
As an aside, California has not banned smoke from steam locomotives, or smoke from any type of historical steam apparatus. It would be exempt as being a historical item, as much as we like our clean air, it doesn't qualify for the cap and trade system nor is it regulated...but the SF Bay Area is trying to ban fireplaces, at least wood burning ones, as if that's going to work.
i agree. wish i could go back to the town i lived in and loved . but can't. live in oregon now. so would be very far to travel. it would be worth it.
Sound's like a plan
Lots of "trolling" going on in this thread...those of you who are truly interested in UP steam and want to see for yourself whats happening should head to Cheyenne later this month for Cheyenne Depot Days. It's the one time each year when UP lets the general public into the steam shop.
I'll be there! :)
I was not trying to start a fight at all. My husband has several friends that work for the UP including a couple in Cheyenne in the Steam Program they transferred into it in the last couple years. They have been there thru the moving of 4014 into Cheyenne from CA and also the Overhaul of 844. One of them is a friend of his from HS and was less than impressed with the quality of work of the last crew. His father was a High pressure Steam fitter at our local Nuke plant and sent him a few pics for his father to look at. His father's words were colorful to say the least.
I looked up the New EPA guidelines for water treatment of Boilers in Steam engines since that was brought up. The UP had no choice but to change what they were doing as the Prior method was deemed a danger to the enviroment. So what do you do risk being fined possibly Millions of Dollars per excursion and have to stop or change to different process that complies with the EPA. Same thing with the Fuel Source going from Waste oil to #2 Diesel. Waste oil is contaminated with heavy metals like Lead and other things that you do not want people breathing in. Diesel fuel is a lot safer and eaiser to get your hands on. Also with waste oil there is always the chance it could be contaminated with Antifreeze so to comply they had to change fuel.
Businesses have to adapt to keep up with regulations. If the UP wants to keep running Steam in the 21st Century they better keep the EPA happy or 844 3985 and 4014 are all going to end up stuffed and mounted on a track someplace.
HERE IT IS - a few facts concerning STEAM LOCOMOTIVE BOILER POLLUTION that may be the reason that Union Pacific is handling the steam program differently.
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From the Healthcare Enviornmental Resource Center.
STEAM BOILERS
The enviornmental impact from steam generating boilers can arise from smoke air emissions from burning fuel, also from wastewater from blowdown and cleaning procedures, and from ash solid waste disposal.
AIR EMISSIONS POLLUTION FROM BURNING FUELS
Use of commonly obtained gas, coal, solid waste, or any combination of these fuels produce smoke exhaust pollutants. Air emissions from boilers include smog producing compounds of nitrogen oxides and volatile organic compounds which in the presence of sunlight combine to form ground level ozone. The effect upon humans can exacerbate asthma, cause lung damage, irritate eyes and similarly damage plant life.
Air emissions also include smoke particulate matter which can lodge in the human lung causing respiratory difficulty. Can include Carbon monoxide which combines with hemoglobin in the human lung to prevent oxygen transport. Can include sulpher dioxide which is a component of acid rain. Can include air toxins known to or are suspected to cause adverse health effects in humans and the enviornment. Smoke can cause greenhouse gases of carbon dioxide, a product of combustion of fuels to generate greenhouse gases that contribute to global warming.
BOILER BLOWDOWN WASTE WATER POLLUTION
Non-combustion pollution waste waters are generated from the activity of operating steam boilers. These are all released to water. These non-combustion wastes are from water used for once-through cooling, cooling system blowdowns, boiler water blowdowns, water-side boiler cleaning operations, and demineralizer regenerant cleaning chemicals.
FIREBOX WASTE ASH POLLUTION PRODUCTS
Bottom and fly ash and flue gas desulfurization waste products result from the burning of fuels that are not related to those smoke pollution products released through the locomotive smoke stack. Firebox ash is the typical solid waste product and may also include flue gas desulfurization products washed out of the firebox in solid or water slurry form. Because firebox ash can contain heavy metals and other hazardous components it should be disposed of with care.
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AIR POLLUTANTS RELEASED BY FIREBOX FUEL TYPE
COAL FUEL - Smoke to air emissions in the form of sulfer dioxide, nitrogen oxide, carbon monoxide, volitile organic compounds, particulate matter, and metals such as arsenic, beryllium, cadmium, chromium, mercury, lead, selenium and also sulfur emissions come from the locomotive stack.
Boiler blowdown waste water emissions are in the form of clorine, organic chemicals, metals, acids, suspended solids and dissolved solids, ferrrous sulfate, sulfuric acid and pyrite.
Firebox waste ash pollutants are in the form of heavy metals, ferrous sulfate, sulfuric acid, calcium sulphate, and calcium oxide.
OIL FUEL - Smoke stack air pollution emissions are in the form of sulpher dioxide, nitrogen oxide, carbon monoxide, volitile organic compounds, particulate matter, metals like arsenic, beryllium, cadmium, chromium, also sulfur, hazardous air polutants and hydrogen cloride.
Boiler blowdown waste water discharges of chlorine, organic chemicals, metals, acids, suspended solids and disolved solids as well as metals.
Firebox waste products contain volatile organic compounds and heavy metals.
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Steam Boiler pollutions are monitored under the following federal acts of legislation in the United States of America.
CLEAN AIR ACT - New Source Performance Standards, section 111 requires the Enviornmental Protection Agency (EPA) to establish federal emission standards for source categories which cause or contribute significantly to air pollution. - for details see the Combustion Portal Boiler NSPS section of the law.
NATIONAL EMISSION STANDARDS FOR HAZARDOUS AIR POLUTIANTS - (NESHAPs) are emission standards set by the United States Enviornmental Protection Agency (EPA) for an air pollution not covered by the National Ambiant Air Quality Standards (NQAAQS) that may cause and increase in fatalities or in serious, irreversible, or incapacitating illness. - for details see the Combustion Portal Boiler NESHAP section of the law.
ASBESTOS - Any steam boiler or facility that contains asbestos used in insulation for boilers and pipes is subject to the Asbestos National Emission Standard for Hazardous Air Pollutants (NESHAP). The demolition or renovation standards stipulate Enviornmental Protection Agency (EPA) notification and proper handling and disposal when asbestos material is disturbed.
NOx SIP Call - This is the nitrous oxide state implementation call requiring 22 states and the District of Columbia to submit state implementation plans that address regional transport of ground level-ozone pollution, requiring emission reduction measures to be in place by May 1, 2003. The law requires control of ozone recursors such as nitrous oxide which are emitted by - fuel fired steam boilers.
CLEAN WATER ACT - The water used in the maintaince of steam boilers which can contain pollution contaminants must be managed in accordance with a pretreatment program. The law is addressed in Clean Water Act (CWA) National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) and is controlled by the issuing of permits to dump boiler water. The generation of waste water streams and their effluent limitations cover chemical boiler metal cleaning generated wastes monitored for total suspended solids, oil and grease, iron and copper. Non chemical metal cleaning waste water products of boiler maintaince are monitored for "low cleaning water usage." All boiler blowdown water disposal is monitored for acid, poly-clorinated biphenyls also known infamously as PCB's. Boiler cooling water blowdown procedures are monitored by the Enviornmental Protection Agency for "flow assisted corrosion", chromium, and zinc content.
Coal pile storage rain water or wash water runoff is also checked now for total suspended solids. This part of the law would effect locomotive tenders of coal fired boilers.
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It seems odd to me that Union Pacific Railroad Steam Program director Ed Dickens is so concerned for the ongoing firebox water jacket repairs. Specifically the mud ring to lower corner plate repairs and of the erroded sections of the mud ring itself. After all this is a 65 year old firebox that has been continually patched up on UP 844.
Ed Dickens in the latest video release keeps talking about the many years of damage to the steel caused by "flow assisted corrosion." Which also just happens to be one of the legal concerns of the Clean Water Act (CWA) which monitors for high levels of "flow assisted corrosion," and also for the Enviornmental Protection Agency (EPA) legal monitoring of "frequency of boiler blowdown produre" under Clean Water Act (CWA) - National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES).
--------------
We better re-think what might be really going on with the reduction of boiler blowdowns and the hyper repairs to UP 844's boiler in the updated UP Steam Program.
Shadow the cats owner..... you are not gonna make any friends by upsetting people or picking fights. the people in this thread me including have discussed this in depth. you coming in and telling us were wrong is not a good idea. i lived in cheyenne. i have discussed the hard water issue in the thread. check the notes..... cheyenne has alway,s had hard water. the railroad new this. even way back then. they developed a very strict plan on how to treat the hard water and the scale it created. worked very well. fast forward to the issue with 844,s boiler. the fact that the treatment was tweaked and the additive of chlorine was the result. think about what chlorine can do in a boiler. it eats it. cause the acide in it. what does acide do to mettle. it eats it up like crazy. leading the discovery to what happend to the left side of the boiler. now if you think i am wrong in what i say and know..... me and my peers can back me up in my knowledge and theirs as well. as i and they have proved it in the threads i and them that have written and responded to. and i personally don't like you taking jabs at my friends who may know more then you.
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