When you consider that many municipalities banned leaf-burning quite a few years ago, San Francisco's proposed ban on wood-burning fireplaces should not be too surprising. Aside from the crud that they throw in the air, wood-burning fireplaces are also a potential fire hazard since a lot of chimneys rarely get swept.
Here is the Standard they are aiming to rebuild 844 4014 and 3985 to https://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=EPA-HQ-OW-2009-0819-5558 They want to Exceed even that according in quality.
On the fuel issue it was a combo of Both Future EPA fears and possible CARB issues. Remember this about CARB they are trying to ban all non tier 2 locomotives from California right now. My information about why the UP is doing what they did is coming direct from the Steam shop employees the ones rebuilding the locomotives who would know why they are doing what they are doing it for. I will take that information from them rather than people that are not in there all the time.
Stdgauge,
The answer to your question is obviously that the passenger steam locomotive UP 844 has continually operated on the railroad since it was built and was never retired from active service. I can also see a clear case with the EPA that Union Pacific Railroad is modern Class 1 freight railroad and not "a historic steam train tourist operation." Further, the Federal Government just loves to fine corporations like Volkswagen billions of dollars for disagreements over the technical fulfillment of United States Laws. They would love to hit a Class 1 railroad with a million dollar enviornmental fine.
This the Feds would not do to the Virginia & Truckee Nevada State tourist operation because it is a state supported historic railroad. In fact the Feds with the help of Democratic Senator Harry Reid have funded a part of the new main line for the V&T for historic purposes. I guarrantee you they are not going to fund another main line for Union Pacific unless they have to fight WWII all over again.
No! The Union Pacific Railroad because it is a major corporation, will instead be held to a higher standard "above the rest" of all the small groups of steam operators that could pay them nothing if challenged.
Union Pacific Railroad, must, for its own protection and preservation make sure it meets more than what would be the required EPA clean air and water standards. And to take a good look at what could be or going to or may be demand of them. The they will need to head off the Feds and get those EPA buracrats off their back permanantly!
The best way to do that is a operate a perfect corporate steam locomotive, operated in absolutely the best politically correct fashion for the public joy, entertainment and public relations.
I'm looking for some agressive boiler blowdown procedures in water reteavable locations and then monitoring the water for boiler condition of metals and chlorine by the railroad itself if they havn't already been doing this. To say nothing of improved maintaince procedures of boiler and firebox.
So "say good by" the the air polluting smoking photo runbys of the past guys! They just get the everpresent enviornmentalists, and the local and national politicians, pissed off!
I am also looking for high skill levels on the oil firing valves and the sanding the flues in the fan trip future and the use of some good clean burning anthracite coal and proper fire grate managment use in the coal burning locomotives like NW 611.
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If the Republicans get in office I suspect the EPA will back off its agressive enviornmental issues and a return to some coal production will ensue. Obama has just about shut down the coal industry and Hilliary was promising to continue to shut it down if West Virginia doesn't stop her. Of course I think she is offering some alternative Fed sponsored employment for them.
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Just my take on it all!
Doc
Dr D If the Republicans get in office I suspect the EPA will back off its agressive enviornmental issues and a return to some coal production will ensue. Obama has just about shut down the coal industry and Hilliary was promising to continue to shut it down if West Virginia doesn't stop her. Of course I think she is offering some alternative Fed sponsored employment for them. ------------------------ Just my take on it all! Doc
There a big difference between what the up I trying to than Dr d comparison to volkswsgon fines. The up is trying to operate a historical locomotive. Volkswsgon not only falsified document regarding its vehicles performance to the us government but mislead and lied to 10000's customers.
And the up can't be compared to a historical railroad because by its charter it us not.
I doubt if epa is going to shut down the up steam program.
Shadow the Cats owner Here is the Standard they are aiming to rebuild 844 4014 and 3985 to https://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=EPA-HQ-OW-2009-0819-5558 They want to Exceed even that according in quality. On the fuel issue it was a combo of Both Future EPA fears and possible CARB issues. Remember this about CARB they are trying to ban all non tier 2 locomotives from California right now. My information about why the UP is doing what they did is coming direct from the Steam shop employees the ones rebuilding the locomotives who would know why they are doing what they are doing it for. I will take that information from them rather than people that are not in there all the time.
Dr D Stdgauge, The answer to your question is obviously that the passenger steam locomotive UP 844 has continually operated on the railroad since it was built and was never retired from active service. I can also see a clear case with the EPA that Union Pacific Railroad is modern Class 1 freight railroad and not "a historic steam train tourist operation." Further, the Federal Government just loves to fine corporations like Volkswagen billions of dollars for disagreements over the technical fulfillment of United States Laws. They would love to hit a Class 1 railroad with a million dollar enviornmental fine. This the Feds would not do to the Virginia & Truckee Nevada State tourist operation because it is a state supported historic railroad. In fact the Feds with the help of Democratic Senator Harry Reid have funded a part of the new main line for the V&T for historic purposes. I guarrantee you they are not going to fund another main line for Union Pacific unless they have to fight WWII all over again. No! The Union Pacific Railroad because it is a major corporation, will instead be held to a higher standard "above the rest" of all the small groups of steam operators that could pay them nothing if challenged. Union Pacific Railroad, must, for its own protection and preservation make sure it meets more than what would be the required EPA clean air and water standards. And to take a good look at what could be or going to or may be demand of them. The they will need to head off the Feds and get those EPA buracrats off their back permanantly! The best way to do that is a operate a perfect corporate steam locomotive, operated in absolutely the best politically correct fashion for the public joy, entertainment and public relations. I'm looking for some agressive boiler blowdown procedures in water reteavable locations and then monitoring the water for boiler condition of metals and chlorine by the railroad itself if they havn't already been doing this. To say nothing of improved maintaince procedures of boiler and firebox. So "say good by" the the air polluting smoking photo runbys of the past guys! They just get the everpresent enviornmentalists, and the local and national politicians, pissed off! I am also looking for high skill levels on the oil firing valves and the sanding the flues in the fan trip future and the use of some good clean burning anthracite coal and proper fire grate managment use in the coal burning locomotives like NW 611. ---------------------------- If the Republicans get in office I suspect the EPA will back off its agressive enviornmental issues and a return to some coal production will ensue. Obama has just about shut down the coal industry and Hilliary was promising to continue to shut it down if West Virginia doesn't stop her. Of course I think she is offering some alternative Fed sponsored employment for them. ------------------------ Just my take on it all! Doc
Not taking political sides, but the causes of the decline of coal are more complex than your overly reductive statment. The growth of natural gas began prior to 2008 has been a significant factor in the utilities' declining use of coal for power generation.
The Boiler water regulation was the Final rule or the Final regulation and it was published in the Federal book of regulations in December of 2015 after 3 years of public comments and input from Steam Plant operators. It is the current regulation and was being discussed prior to 844 being taken out of service.
My guess is UP saw the writing on the wall and took agressive measures to show they can clean up the image of the program. Oh the EPA can and will regulate anything they want.
One other Public Relations issue of great importance I forgot to throw down in all this Evironmental Protection Agency discussion is the very nature of the cause!
ENVIRONMENTAL - PROTECTION
This liberal cause of celebration is the rally point for the politically correct order of liberal life and politics. The cause behind the Government legislation of clean air.
It is my firm belief in the growth of America to the present mindset that the AGE OF STEAM was entirely left behind in the minds of Americans. They do not know nor understand what STEAM is or what STEAM POWER was.
The average American does not know that when his car blows a radiator hose on the engine cooling system that STEAM from the radiator is not FIRE. Nor do they understand that steam has power and heat connected with it. Hence the passing of the formidable radiator cap that could blow off and and scald and burn the auto owner. There is a real general misunderstanding that a PRESSURE VESSEL like a steam boiler is a bomb in disguise or a repository for POWER. No rather they think of a steam railroad locomotive as a sort of large automobile with a DIRTY EXHAUST PIPE for a SMOKESTACK.
Consequently this is the PUBLIC RELATIONS PROBLEM:
THAT EXAUST STEAM IS WATER VAPOR CONDENSATION NOT AIR POLLUTION!
Steam railroading really NEEDS to project and communicate this point which we all take mostly for granted.
I am always shocked how much complaint a steam producing power plant gets for the steam mistaken for smoke. And of course the media is of no help here as they are more ignorant of technology than most of the public.
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We all need to be in public relations work on this subject.
I'm not surprised that the steam railroad era has been forgotten when you consider that the last vestiges of steam operation on American railroads were discontinued over fifty years ago. The last steam locomotive built for a Class One railroad left Roanoke shop in 1953. Nothing lasts forever.
The National Environmental Policy Act (which established the EPA) was a bi-partisan effort that was signed into law by President Nixon in 1972 or 1973. Clean air and water are not optional for human beings.
CwexExactly, and the fact that the UP didn't want to spend the $$$ for line side refueling stations. It was planned from the beginning to convert the 4014 to oil, otherwise it would be limited to traveling in Wyoming only.
I recall when the 3985 was stopped in Memphis in 1992 due to a blown draft air valve in her smoke box..She was refueled by tanker truck. The fuel used was 'Bunker Oil" at least that was what the delivering driver called it. [see the following link about Bunker Oil grades @ http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/bunker-oil-marine-fuel-oil/ ] This will help you figure out which grades they might use to fuel UPR Steam engines.
Supposedly, 'the story about #844 having problems on the road' was because she had been fueled with regular Diesel Fuel?? Not the heavier grades of available #5 or#6 bunker oils? Scuttlebutt?? Who knows??
My bet would be that whenever #844, #3985 or #4014 hit the road again; somebody in their entourages will be responsible for boiler water quality, and fuel quality, as well. [my2c]
I could care less about the politics and personalities that seem to run rampant on the topic here. But, related somewhat, the Denver Post says 844 will be leading the Cheyenne Frontier Days train this year on July 23rd. Proof things are moving foreward?????
http://www.denverpost.com/news/local/ci_29863824/cheyenne-frontier-days-train-is-steaming-back-into-the-station
Mega-dittos on that. Bottom line is I am an 844 fan and hopefully the job being done ends up having it running like the proverbial Swiss watch so they can apply that knowledge and processes to the 4014 and then 3985. Omaha will get it right.
A bit late to the party here, but steam locomotives are exempt from any EPA regulations concerning air pollution and have been for years.
EPA agents can fume about it all they want to, and we don't know that they want to, I mean, doesn't EVERYBODY love steam?
So relax everyone, the gummint's not going to bother any steam program over smoke output.
Well, my son & I are headed to Cheyenne today for UP's open house-it will be interesting to see the progress on the locomotives!
Firelock76 I mean, doesn't EVERYBODY love steam?
I mean, doesn't EVERYBODY love steam?
Steam is something that I could take or leave. I'd be more impressed by a restoration of an Alco-GE-IR boxcab from the 1920's to operating condition.
Steam is impressive. But I would love to see a matched set of pa',s or Early e or f running too
OK, everybody except csshegewish (how do you pronounce that anyway?) and Mr. Willison.
But they DO have excellent taste in diesels, I must admit! Honestly, I'd LOVE to see that old CNJ boxcab, Number 1000 at the B&O museum running myself.
Saw it a few years ago, you can still smell the diesel fuel!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The 60s are over ,we need to rein in the
EPA extremist to have steam & coal &manufacturing ,rant off long live coal & steam
Certainly those days are gone, but those who were there at the time told me that after nearly a decade of the Great Depression it was a beautiful sight indeed when those long idle factory chimneys started belching smoke again in 1939.
All depends on your point of view, I suppose.
The crew restoring 4014 now feel that a five to seven year timeframe to get the job done is more likely. The article cited below doesn't indicate that they offered a reason.
http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/wyoming/union-pacific-steam-shop-to-open-for-tours/article_aea057f9-bb62-5daf-baf9-5f9bea075603.html
Big whoop. It'll be done when it's done. I'm not surprised it'll take longer than expected.
Big whoop?
Where I'm from its a term meaning "Big deal" or "so what".
From where Iam from its rather rude. Doesn't help grow a healthy discussion. But typical of many who just like discussions shut down. But in your own words no big whoop. We all know you can't put these kinds of projects on a time table. But I am sure there are some who might want to discuss the project all the same. Many of still remember the last days of steam in regular service. ( some i am sure mourn the day ). The thought of a 4000 class coming back from the dead is a dream come true. So let's keep the communication open and be able to discuss the good news with the bad. I apologize in advance if this hurts any one feelings.
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