It was in the newswire a few days ago. Essentially, 844 is likely to return to steam in 2016 (with them hoping for Fall 2015), the restoration timeline for the 4014 is still aiming towards operation by 2019, and the 3985 isn't retired.
Not to mention that they're hiring people for the program. Been several job listings posted over the past few months, including this one.
http://www.glassdoor.com/job-listing/boilermaker-steam-JV_IC1138322_KO0,17_IE691.htm?jl=1368612950&utm_source=jobalert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=ja-jobtitle&utm_campaign=jobAlertAlert&paoIdKey=MA==
Odd move for a company that's getting out of this.
The UP channel on YouTube has a recent video which mentions ongoing Cheyenne shop changes. Apparently diesel related activity is being reduced / moved to other facilities to make more square footage available for steam engine refurbishment - a good sign.
OTOH I'm a little skeptical about their new shop manager - he is relatively new to UP and has an IT background rather than RR mechanical. Hmmm.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
The reason they are hiring is they have have had OVER 100% employee turnover in the past 4 years. Not one of the original crew (Steve Lee's group) is left. THAT is why they are hiring for the program. Note that all the experience that these employees had is GONE.
I hate to say it, but I am VERY concerned about the state of the UP Steam Program.
Isn't all of the oil used in UP steam engines the old oil removed during oil changes?
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
I was under the impression that they burned the same fuel that the diesels do.
Little history here on one of the greatest steam restoration events in the United States in recent years. Union Pacific retrieving a 4-8-8-4 from a museum and preparing to use it in public relations operation! The reclaiming of it steam heritage and the largest steam locomotive ever built going back into service! This is a world class event on any calendar.
Alfred Bruce comments on the big articulated designs of Union Pacific.
-------------------------
Challenger 4-6-6-4 Type
The first 4-6-6-4 type articulated engine with four simple cylinders (this type has never been developed as a compound) was built by the American Locomotive Company in 1936 for the Union Pacific Railroad to supplement the existing three-cylinder 4-12-2 type Union Pacific engines in higher speed operation. They were immediately successful that they were adopted in quantity by the Union Pacific and by other roads having manifest-freight-train service for which they were very well adapted because their riding stability was superior to that of any other existing articulated engine when they were running at higher speeds.
The total weight of the 4-6-6-4 type Challenger articulated engine was very evenly distributed between the front and back engine units. In general the weight on the front unit was equal to about 90 percent of the weight on the back unit. This feature and the guiding qualities of the four-wheel leading truck was necessary for the proper balance required at high speed. Although they were not applied to the first engines of this type, front boiler supports with flat bearing surfaces, together with only a working vertical clearance on the single vertical articulation pin, were introduced about 1940. Now the front engine had only the vertical movement permitted by its spring deflections, as in the case of the rear rigid-chasis engine. The result was the most stable-riding atriculated engine ever built and one that could be safely operated at speeds of up to 60 and 70 miles per hour. There are no smoother riding articulated steam locomotive engines built than the 4-6-6-4 type on the Union Pacific and the Delaware & Hudson railways at the speeds mentioned. The flat bearing-plate surfaces required careful alignment on the erecting floor, but they were well worth the extra effort.
Because of the speeds required, this type has always been built with 69 inch drivers which lengthened the engine to such an extent that the firebox had to be located over the rear drivers and the trailer truck. Consequently, the grates were generally blocked off at the rear of the throat to provide clearance for the rear drivers as was also developed in the design of the three-cylinder 4-12-2 type Union Pacific engines. The firebox was relatively shallow, but it had an extended internal combusion chamber which provided ample firebox volume for the available grate area so that the boilers were all good steamers with the thin fires used with mechanical stokers.
On these six-coupled-axle articulated chasis engines with 69 inch drivers, the designers of steam locomotives must choose between producing an engine with the best riding stability and producing one with the best combustion conditions. Both may be had in a single rigid frame engine with five coupled axles, but not in a rigid frame engine with six coupled axles and 69 inch drivers such as the 4-12-2 type Union Pacific design.
The 4-6-6-4 type Challenger type of articulated engine undoubtedly had the best riding stability at high speeds and at the same time had combustion conditions that have proved satisfactory on many hundreds of steam locomotive engines. The 2-6-6-4 type such as Norfolk & Western 1200 series undoubtedly had the best combustion conditions obtainable and at the same time had riding stability at MEDIUM speeds that had proved satisfactory to the users. Thus, the choice must really be determined by the operating speed - and this is generally the procedure that is followed. The 4-6-6-4 type Challenger was well balanced and accessible, and had adequate ashpan capacity. In addition, it had all modern improvements, including integral cast steel bed frames and roller bearings on all axles.
The 4-6-6-4 type Challenger has been adopted for manifest service on the Union, Pacific RR, the Northern Pacific RR, the Western Pacific RR, and the Denver & Rio Grande Western RR, the Western Maryland RR, the Clinchfield RR, and the Delaware & Hudson RR. It was last built in 1944 for the Union Pacific Railroad.
There have been 215 of the 4-6-6-4 type Challenger articlated engines built in the United States. This is roughly 7% of all articulated steam locomotives constructed and is an equal tie to the 210 of the 2-6-6-4 type which also share 7% of the total build number.
--------------------------
To understand Big Boy 4014 you really need to understand what preceded it - The Challenger! Although not the largest, I would venture to say it was the Best! Lets hear it for UP 3985 - A Standard Of Excellence!
Doc
------------------
Challenger Statistics - 1936 build of UP 3902
Boiler pressure - 255 lbs.
Cylinder size - (all 4) - 22" x 32"
Drive wheel diameter - 69"
Tractive effort - 97,400 lbs
Factor of adhesion - 4.0
Boiler maximum outside diameter - 102 inch
Boiler tube length - 22 foot
Combustion chamber - 86 inches
Firebox size - 213 inch x 108 inch
Grate area - 108.2 square feet
Heating surface evaporative area - 5,391 sq. ft.
Superheat surface - 1,650 sq. ft.
Driver wheelbase - 35 feet 1 inch
Engine wheelbase - 59 feet 11 inches
Engine and tender wheelbase - 97 feet 11 inches
Engine weight on drivers - 386,000 lbs.
Engine weight - 566,000 lbs.
Tender capacity - 18,350 gallons
Tender weight - 310,000 lbs.
stdgauge The reason they are hiring is they have have had OVER 100% employee turnover in the past 4 years. Not one of the original crew (Steve Lee's group) is left. THAT is why they are hiring for the program. Note that all the experience that these employees had is GONE. I hate to say it, but I am VERY concerned about the state of the UP Steam Program.
I have to wonder what is going on there. It sounds like a thorough going housecleaning, for want of a better term. Might help explain the business with boiler water treatment methods (apparently using pool chemicals) on 844 referenced in an earlier thread last year I believe. If the experienced shop crew (and leadership) is heading out the door, UP really will be in trouble if they are unable to recruit equally experienced replacements. If not, I would regretfully expect more bad news.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
It looks like UP is running into a variation of what happened with CB&Q when they decided to drop the fires on 4960 and 5632. In this case, a lot of institutional memory and knowledge is heading out the door and the new hires and new management is going to have to learn everything just short of re-inventing the wheel. The steam program may be entering its final years.
If you shop around the Internet a little, you'll find plenty of evidence that the new program head is capital-T Trouble. In the best, or worst, U.P. tradition -- remembering people like Art Shoener and others -- he seems to have the company's full support. Little wonder the hands are bailing.
Any major railroad such as Union Pacific can and will find the talent it needs to run its operations. The good news is that Ed Dickens is developing a full steam shop facility on the location of the major company backshop. I realize that steam fans are often very jealous of those picked for position but other railroaders just see it as a job in public relations and others its just a paycheck. These programs like UP steam are larger than any one individual or group of individuals.
When I was a member of Michigan State Trust For Railway Preservation the group the restored C&O 1225/ PM 1225 the group was constantly loosing talented people. Do you think individuals can devote a lifetime to this type of activity? Generations of workers came and went. One student at Michigan State University, David Jones, if I remember, stayed for years after his degree was obtained - I believe in teaching English. David hung around just to keep working on PM 1225 while others went on with their lives and careers. David if I remember sadly came to one of our engineering meetings one day and told us that he just couldn't continue - he loved the fellowship and the club but he had to "get on with his life!" - his parents and girl friend were calling him "to be more than what the club was!" - to be the person "he was supposed to be!" - he had to take a teaching position in New England! - David sadly left us.
How long can any one of us take time out to do some of these things no matter how much we want to do them? If we are lucky we get to do them for a while!
-----------------------------
The men who built the great steam fleet of the Union Pacific Railroad are gone. The bankers and railroaders that funded the locomotive builds are gone. The American Locomotive designers and engineers who constructed them are gone. The shop staff that built UP 4014 on the erecting floor are gone - so the steel makers and the machinists. The engineers that knew the day to day operation of every one of the UP 4000 series are gone - every crew that ran a locomotive in revenue service - are gone or just about gone. The boiler makers, the round house wipers - all gone.
Because its a living technology that gets handed on - lost - found again and reclaimed again!
My dad - veteran soldier of General McArthur and the invasion of the Pacific Islands used to say to me - "Son, see that cemetary over there? It's filled with 'big wheels' this world cannot live without!"
UP 4014, UP 3985, UP 844 will run again - better than before - because it's in the will of the people to do so, and also the heritage of a great American railroad to do this thing.
----------------------------
"So come away and hear the singing of the Lark! Its like a dream out of a blessed sleep!"
So at what point do we stop calling Cheyenne a steam shop and start calling it historic equipment maintanice facility? Their hasnt been any steam there for going on two years and counting.... Just saying.
Considering what they're often working on, what exactly is your point?
Dr D When I was a member of Michigan State Trust For Railway Preservation the group the restored C&O 1225/ PM 1225 the group was constantly loosing talented people. Do you think individuals can devote a lifetime to this type of activity? Generations of workers came and went. One student at Michigan State University, David Jones, if I remember, stayed for years after his degree was obtained - I believe in teaching English. David hung around just to keep working on PM 1225 while others went on with their lives and careers. David if I remember sadly came to one of our engineering meetings one day and told us that he just couldn't continue - he loved the fellowship and the club but he had to "get on with his life!" - his parents and girl friend were calling him "to be more than what the club was!" - to be the person "he was supposed to be!" - he had to take a teaching position in New England! - David sadly left us. How long can any one of us take time out to do some of these things no matter how much we want to do them? If we are lucky we get to do them for a while! ... My dad - veteran soldier of General McArthur and the invasion of the Pacific Islands used to say to me - "Son, see that cemetary over there? It's filled with 'big wheels' this world cannot live without!"
How long can any one of us take time out to do some of these things no matter how much we want to do them? If we are lucky we get to do them for a while! ...
Spare us, Doc!
These people bailing on the U.P. steam program are not volunteers, but regular U.P. employees, and paid accordingly. Their departure is costing them wages, benefits and seniority.
And your father, if he said what you say he did, was merely borrowing, and mangling his borrowing, to boot. The exact quote, which comes from Charles DeGaulle, is: "The graveyard is full of indispensible men."
What might be happening at up, and I have no way to be sure, is a lot might just be retiring. Some times things just cycle that way. It can't see up pushing folks out the door when they are ramping things up to get the big boy done.
Dakotafred,
Sorry to hear that you had friends leaving UP Steam Program. Hard to see them go and not feel the pain of the changes. Corporate "shake up" is often unexpected and bitter. Friend of mine just retired from UP as engineer. Spent most of his life moving freight from Omaha to Cheyenne, can't tell from the way he talks, but the "camera on the engineer" program was not a pleasant subject for him. John Leslie was quite a steam fan in his youth but as a professional engineer he lost his taste for hobby railroading.
Thought I would share some of Alfred Bruce commets on the UP 4000 series.
--------------------------------------
Big Boy 4-8-8-4 Type
The 4-8-8-4 type has been built only with four simple cylinders. It probably represents the maximum development of the articulated steam locomotive engine with a reasonable axle loading for manifest-freight train operation, since it incorporated both four-wheel leading and trailing trucks to provide maximum boiler capacity and riding stability at high operating speeds. It had a very even distribution of weight between front and rear engine units and was well balanced in every way. As on all eight-coupled-axle articulated engines, the firebox was relatively shallow and located over the rear drivers and trailer truck. But since it had ample grate area and firebox volume, the boiler steamed well with thin fires and provided ample power.
The basic problem on the 4-8-8-4 type was, of course, to obtain the best firebox and ashpan conditions that the clearances permitted with the 68 in. diameter drivers and a height of 133 inches from the rail to center of boiler. Service performance records indicate that this problem was solved satisfactorily. The firebox crown sheet was about 29 feet in length, but gave no trouble with uncovering on the maximum 2.2 per cent grades because of the presence of an ample water space over the crown of 32 inches.
Another problem was the equalization of the four-wheel leading truck with the drivers of the front engine unit. This had not been necessary on the 4-6-6-4 Challenger.
The 4-8-8-4 type of articulated engine was built by the American Locomotive Company only for the Union Pacific, first in 1941 and later in 1944, and was known as the Big Boy on this road. The design was outstanding because its 68 inch drivers and flat boiler-support contacts enabled it to reach speeds of 60 miles per hour or more in daily operation. It was conservatively rated at 7,000 horsepower at 40 miles per hour, although its maximum output was probably at least 7,500 horsepower or more.
These engines were built to include all improvements that tended toward better operation, such as cast-steel integral bed frames, roller bearings on all axles, accessible high-pressure steam pipes to the front engine unit, 300 psi steam pressure. The total weight of the last engines built in 1944 was 772,200 pounds with a driving-axle loading of 68,000 pounds.
These are still the heaviest steam locomotive engines in the world today with reciprocating pistons and direct-rod drive. There were 25 of these locomotives built to reduce helper service on the heavy grades eastbound over the Wasatch Mountains out of Ogden, Utah to Green River, Wyoming, on the Union Pacific Railroad.
-------------------
Seems Union Pacific was very aware of the unique nature of Big Boy. Only two 4-6-6-4 Challenger locomotives were saved by the company out of a roster of close to 105 engines. Fortunately, owing to the unique nature of UP 4000 engines eight locomotives were saved out of the 25 constructed. This unprecidented survival rate is 30% of existing locomotives. Of all articulated steam built in America UP 4000 Big Boy series represented .8% of total production. These are truely impressive figures. Largest locomotive, largest surviving number of the total produced. I guess when it comes to Big Boy - every thing is big!
(numbers corrected per Challenger3980 post)
----------------------
Big Boy Statistics - 1941 build of UP 4002
Boiler Pressure - 300 lbs.
Cylinder size - (all 4) - 23 3/4" x 32"
Driving wheel diameter - 68"
Tractive effort - 135,400 lbs
Factor of adhesion - 4.02
Boiler maximum outside diameter - 107 inch
Boiler tube length - 22 feet 0 inches
Combustion chamber - 112 inches
Firebox size - 235 inch x 96 inch
Grate area - 150.3 square feet
Heating surface evaporative area - 5,755 sq. ft.
Superheat surface - 2,073 sq. ft.
Driver wheelbase - 47 feet 3 inches
Engine wheelbase - 72 feet 5 1/2 inches
Engine and tender wheelbase - 117 feet 7 inches
Engine weight on drivers - 545,000 lbs.
Engine weight - 772,000 lbs.
Tender capacity - 25,000 gallons
Tender weight - 435,000 lbs.
Well that begs to question if any work of consequence is being done.
844's boiler was good till 2019. But here we are in 2015 with 844 gutted years early because the boiler was packed full of mud and the tubes scaled beyond belief. The current management decided to change proven water treatment and blowdown programs for no reason. There use to be a lot of equipment that Cheyenne was tasked with keeping in service. Is 844 in service? Are the E units in service? Was the Rotary ready to go if this winter caused problems? Is 6936 in service? 3985? No to all of the above. Now we have a big boy in the house for over a year. There hasn't been one single update about any work. Look at the other steam programs around the country. Santa Fe 2926 gives weekly updates of all the work they are getting done with all volunteer labor. N&W 611 had a load of coal delivered this week for the first test fire.
My point is that if any work was being done on anything there would be updates. All that I have seen is work on the building and a bunch of new tools.
As far as the crew no one with any experience will work with the current manager. Under previous management the only turn over in the crew was mostly limited to retirement. Its very telling that all the previous crew members have left. UP has been advertising for a certified boiler maker for months. Until they find one no work can be done on any of the steam locomotive boilers. I love the UP steam program and was very excited about the big boy but I'm not holding my breath on it getting done anytime soon.
Don't believe what I have said? No problem doesnt bother me a bit. Just remember that since rails have been laid in Cheyenne almost 150 years ago there has always been a steam engine in service ready to work...that is till now.
Dr D., Alfred Bruce had his numbers wrong, UP rostered 105 Challengers, not "close to 200"
From UP's own website:
It is one of 105 Challengers built for Union Pacific between 1936 and 1943
UP had 25, not 24 Big Boys, #4000-4024. The Challengers numbering changed both by Class, and fuel type, the "Early" Challengers were originally #'ed in the 3900 class, then later re-numbered in the 3800 class, the "Late" Challengers were then #'ed in the 3900 class, with both types renumbered into the 3700 class if/when converted to oil firing.
The 3985 was retired as a dirt burner, and even burned coal after being returned to service, later when the 3985 was converted to oil firing in excursion/PR service, being the ONLY Challenger in service there was no need to renumber her, and she retained the 3900 class #, even though she then was oil fired.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Challenger3980,
Thanks for the correction to my post on Big Boy. I changed the figures as you were correct in my mis interpretation of Bruce's data. The 215 total build for Challenger design was undoubtedly for the copies of this is 4-6-6-4 type used on Northern Pacific, Western Pacific, Denver & Rio Grande Western, Western Maryland, Clinchfield RR, and Delaware and Hudson. It appears that only Union Pacific loved the design enough to save two examples. Hard to figure as the locomotive design was truely a great one. I would think Union Pacific would have a better passenger engine in the UP 3985 Challenger, the UP 4014 Big Boy was a freight locomotive for sure. However, the "Biggest is the Best" and "Most Famous" titles are sure to push the Big Boy into passenger service - something I am not sure it was ever built to do. We will have to see just how much speed they can get out of her commonly held 60 mph speed limit. Challenger was suposed to be good for 70 mph "back in the day" wonder if they ever topped it?
DEREK HOWELL Well that begs to question if any work of consequence is being done. 844's boiler was good till 2019. But here we are in 2015 with 844 gutted years early because the boiler was packed full of mud and the tubes scaled beyond belief. The current management decided to change proven water treatment and blowdown programs for no reason. There use to be a lot of equipment that Cheyenne was tasked with keeping in service. Is 844 in service? Are the E units in service? Was the Rotary ready to go if this winter caused problems? Is 6936 in service? 3985? No to all of the above. Now we have a big boy in the house for over a year. There hasn't been one single update about any work. Look at the other steam programs around the country. Santa Fe 2926 gives weekly updates of all the work they are getting done with all volunteer labor. N&W 611 had a load of coal delivered this week for the first test fire. My point is that if any work was being done on anything there would be updates. All that I have seen is work on the building and a bunch of new tools. As far as the crew no one with any experience will work with the current manager. Under previous management the only turn over in the crew was mostly limited to retirement. Its very telling that all the previous crew members have left. UP has been advertising for a certified boiler maker for months. Until they find one no work can be done on any of the steam locomotive boilers. I love the UP steam program and was very excited about the big boy but I'm not holding my breath on it getting done anytime soon. Don't believe what I have said? No problem doesnt bother me a bit. Just remember that since rails have been laid in Cheyenne almost 150 years ago there has always been a steam engine in service ready to work...that is till now.
Derek tells it like it is. Elsewhere on this thread, there seems to be a lot of willful denial about what is going on in Cheyenne. Look at the pudding, people -- no drivers turning!
And, as I said in an earlier post, just go to the Internet and see what the news is and what people are saying. Who cares about how many Challengers were built or the vital stats on the Big Boy?
Dakotafred wrote:
Who cares about how many Challengers were built or the vital stats on the Big Boy?
Well, OBVIOUSLY NOT YOU, but there are others here who have intrests that differ from your own. Did you have a rough day on the playground? Probably even took your ball and went home, when the game wasn't going your way too!
It is a Shame that UP is willing to spend the money on the Steam Program, but doesn't seem to be getting much of a return on their investment.
But, what you and Derek seem to forget, is that the Steam Program is a DISCRETIONARY PR Program, not something that is mandatory. Some here give the impression that UP OWES them a Steam Program, NEWSFLASH, They DON'T.
Spot on Doug.... But let's hope they can pull off the big boy project.
I Really Appreciate the UP Steam Program, and I Hope to see it continue as Great of a Success, or Greater than it was under Steve Lee.
Sometimes that seems to be Wishful Thinking, but the program is still being funded, so there is still Hope.
i too would Love to see the 4014 under Steam again, imagine the 4014, 3985 and the 844 all with Fires in their Bellies at the same time.
Hey, I can Hope/Dream can't I?
Heck, I even play the Lottery, so to ME, Anything is Possible
One thing we can all be appreciative of is that the men and women in Omaha know how to run a railroad right. They had an operating ratio in 2014 in the low 60s, nipping at the heals of CN in that category, and made over $5 billion, clearing 21% of their revenue to the bottom line.
Why is that important to the heritage operations? Because UP is as aware of their heritage as Wells Fargo or Budweiser, and like those companies, they take it seriously and do it right. If they are having any issues with the heritage operations, history says Omaha will figure it out and get it right. One great example is their response to the grid lock on the Sunset Route in the not too distant past. That response is ongoing and it is incredible when you think about it - building another transcontinental track alongside the first transcontinental track while running operations full bore.
Omaha is apparently investing what is easily seven figures in restoring the steam shop to its prior capability. They have a Big Boy, Challenger and FEF-3 in the roundhouse. They did a pretty decent job moving the Big Boy out of Pomona and back to Cheyenne without a hitch. Thay are investing multiple seven figures in getting the Big Boy operational. They are going to get 844 back on the road again in late 2015 or 2016 and you can bet that if something bad happened to 844 on the New Mexico great circle tour (which itself was quite successful), they will never do that again because they will have learned the hard way, but they won't repeat it.
UP also has, worst case, decades and decades worth of swappable spare parts with 7 other Big Boys around the country, the Challenger in North Platte, and FEF-3 838 and FEF-2 833 in Utah.
Budweiser won't be putting the Clydesdales out to permanent pasture anytime soon, and UP's heritage program will likely outlast several more generations of caretakers and their learning curves.
In the meantime, I am going to pop open a Budweiser and toast the UP for the show they have given us to date with 844 and 3985 from West Coast to Gulf Coast, and the "Big Jack" 6936 and the E-9s on inspection specials and the Frontier Days events, and for the show that will inevitably come because The Lords of the High Iron in Omaha, with their multimillion investment in process, are saying it will be so.
(Dr. D, thanks so much for the information on the Challenger and Big Boy. It was very enjoyable reading!)
kgbw49,
Well with an invitiation like that I won't hold back from - The Third Chapter! There is more in the historical mission of Union Pacific to fulfill its heritage of steam railroading! One more part to the great Union Pacific Steam ReEnactment Pageant.
The steam locomotive named for the railroad itself - never used by any other railroad - part of Nebraska and Wyoming rural heritage - seen for decades chasing the sunset or siilouteted across the American Great Planes - I'm talking classic big steam! UP 9000 the prototype of 4-12-2 named for the railroad - The UNION PACIFIC Type!
Alfred Bruce describes the 4-12-2.
------------------------
Union Pacific 4-12-2 Type
The 4-12-2 type was developed in 1926 as a three-cylinder engine to provide a maximum tractive effort of about 96,600 lbs in a rigid engine with a low axle loading, not to exceed 60,000 lbs.
The three cylinders delivered the power directly to two different driving axles, the outer cylinders to the third axle and the center cylinder to the second axle, permitting good balance in the 67" driving wheels, and gave a very good and even torque line. Although the outside pistons and main rods connected to the number three drivers were very long, they were also readily accessible and gave no trouble.
These Union Pacific Type engines were recognized by the builder, the American Locomotive Company, as slow-speed engines, and when put into service on the Union Pacific Railroad the speed restriction of 35 miles per hour went with them; and so long as this was observed very little trouble was experienced. However, because of the long wheel base the locomotives were very stable riding, and speeds of 60 miles per hour or more were very frequently reported. The original operation of these locomotives was over an undulating trackage profile with about 1 1/2 per cent grades and 4-degree curature of track; later operations were on trackage over 2 per cent grade and 6- to 8- degrees of curvature on a reduced-speed schedule and were very successful. The Union Pacific Type 4-12-2 has good adhesion and a lateral controlled movement of the drive wheels numbers 1 and 6 - of two inches of side movement - another design which never gave any trouble.
Because of the size of the locomotive and the long drive wheel base of 30 feet 8 inches, there were other numerous new development problems to be overcome. Among them were the adaptation of the locomotive to track curvature of perhaps 20 degrees in entering or leaving the roundhouse; the equalization between the leading four wheel truck and the drive wheels on a three cylinder engine of this size, along with the ready access to the middle cylinder for maintaince and lubrication; as well as the inertia of its moving parts which were very heavy.
Another major problem which held up the construction of the Union Pacific Type 4-12-2 was the design of the firebox. It was too large to be placed entirely behind the drive wheels and had to be redesigned and relocated. The solution was a horizontal grate blocked off at the front end over number 6 drive wheels to provide additional combustion chamber volume to the usual inside combustion chamber, and to permit the number 6 drive wheels to extend up slightly into the firebox. This construction worked out remarkably well, as it provided a free-steaming boiler with good steam space and ample firebox depth and volume. These concepts were later used on the articulated 4-6-6-4 Challenger and 4-8-8-4 Big Boy locomotives having four-wheel leading trucks and whose construction entailed about the same general firebox conditions.
Although there were no comparable six-coupled-axle engines in operation in the world in 1926, the experience gained in the building of previous three-cylinder engines for the Southern Pacific in 1925 enabled the American Locomotive Company to undertake the construction of the Union Pacific Type 4-12-2 with full confidence in the outcome. To this day it is an outstanding design and one that has never been attempted with a two cylinder construction. Higher main-line speeds achieved with the Challenger 4-6-6-4 eventually forced the retirement of these remarkable engines in 1936 to a slower-speed division where they continued in daily operation into the 1950s.
About Ninety of these engines were built for the Union Pacific between 1926 and 1930.
-----------------------------------
Did I get that right? 105 Challenger 4-6-6-4 locomotives were built and 90 Union Pacific 4-12-2 locomotives were built? It is apparent the railroad felt that the design was a total success. Two Challenger 4-6-6-4 survive and one Union Pacific 4-12-2. Out of 25 Big Boy 4-8-8-4 built and 7 were preserved. Of all railroads except perhaps Norfolk and Western, Union Pacific was enamored with massive big steam power and a lot of it that no other railroad would even consider in size and quantity. All three of these locomotive designs that led one to the other 4-12-2, 4-6-6-4 and 4-8-8-4 were true TITANS! and the railroad became famous for them.
The Union Pacific design lead to the Challenger which in turn lead to the Big Boy. The time frame was 1926-30 for the 4-12-2 and 1936-42 for the 4-6-6-4 followed in 1940-45 with the 4-8-8-4. Look how the tractive effort and other specifications compare - 96,000 lbs tractive effort to 97,000 lbs of Challenger and 105,000 lbs of Big Boy. Driving wheel size the same within inches, the boiler diameter length of tubes capacity of he tenders The speed range of 60 miles per hour on the 4-12-2 lead to a 70 miles per hour Challenger and back to 60 mph again for Big Boy.
The success of UP 9000 4-12-2 is not well appreciated today - we are talking of a time when Linbergh flew the Atlantic, when the gasoline engine new development. All three of these locomotives were from one UP motive power development program and all were surprisingly about the same size, weight, and of similar overall multi-cylinder construction. UP 9000 is part of the bigger picture and I can imagine seeing this thing run.
Union Pacific 2-10-2 UP 5511 could be traded to Pamona for 4-12-2 UP 9000 - that is unless UP 5511 could provide spare parts. The heritage of Union Pacific Steam Railroading will then have come round full circle. Why not?
Union Pacific Statistics - 1926 build of UP 9000
Boiler pressure - 220 lbs.
Cylinder size - (3 cylinders) inside 27" x 31" and outside 27" x 32"
Drive wheel diameter - 67"
Tractive effort - 96,600 lbs.
Factor of adhesion - 3.66
Boiler maximum outside diameter - 105"
Combustion Chamber - 81 inches
Firebox size - 184" x 108"
Grate area - 108.3 square feet
Heating surface evaporative area - 5,817 sq. ft.
Superheat surface - 2,550 sq. ft.
Driver wheelbase - 30 feet 8 inches
Engine wheelbase - 52 feet 4 inches
Engine and tender wheelbase - 91 feet 7 inches
Engine weight on drivers - 354,000 lbs.
Engine weight - 495,000 lbs.
Tender capacity - 15,000 gallons
Tender weight - 287,000 lbs.
For those interested in putting some numbers to turnover in the Cheyenne steam shop, see today's Wyoming Tribune Eagle at wyomingnews.com.
dakota, what did the eagle say?
ROBERT WILLISON dakota, what did the eagle say?
dakotafred For those interested in putting some numbers to turnover in the Cheyenne steam shop, see today's Wyoming Tribune Eagle at wyomingnews.com.
Looked at the Eagle - no sight of the story you mention. Working link would help the millions that don't reside in Wyoming
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
UNION PACIFIC's BIG THREE
Locomotive: UP 9000 - 4-12-2 UP 3902 - 4-6-6-4 UP 4002 - 4-8-8-4
Year Built: UP 9000 - 1926 UP 3902 - 1936 UP 4002 - 1941
Boiler Pressure:
UP 9000 - 220 psi UP 3902 - 255 psi UP 4002 - 300 psi
Cylinder size: bore and stroke:
UP 9000 - (3 cylinders) 27"x 32" outers with 27"x 31" inner
UP 3902 - (4 cylinders) 22"x 32"
UP 4002 - (4 cylinders) 23 3/4" x 32"
Driver Diameter:
UP 9000 - 67 inches UP 3902 - 69 inches UP 4002 - 68 inches
Tractive Effort:
UP 9000 - 96,000 lbs UP 3902 - 97,400 lbs UP 4002 - 135,400 lbs
Factor of Adhesion:
UP 9000 - 3.66 UP 3902 - 4.0 UP 4002 - 4.02
Boiler Maximum Outside diameter:
UP 9000 - 105" UP 3902 - 102" UP 4002 - 107"
Boiler Tube Length:
UP 9000 - 22'0" UP 3902 - 22' UP 4002 - 22'
Combustion Chamber Length:
UP 9000 - 81 inches UP 3902 - 86 inches UP 4002 - 112 inches
Firebox Dimensions:
UP 9000 - 184"x 108" UP 3902 - 213"x 108" UP 4002 - 235"x 96"
Grate Area:
UP 9000 - 108.3 sq ft UP 3902 - 108.2 sq ft UP 4002 - 150.3 sq ft
Heating Surface Evaporative Area:
UP 9000 - 5,817 sq ft UP 3902 - 5,381 sq ft UP 4002 - 5,755 sq ft
Superheat Surface Area:
UP 9000 - 2,550 sq ft UP 3902 - 1,650 sq ft UP 4002 - 2,043 sq ft
Drivers Wheelbase:
UP 9000 - 30' 8" UP 3902 - 35' 1" UP 4002 - 47' 3"
Engine Wheelbase:
UP 9000 - 52' 4" UP 3902 - 59' 11" UP 4002 - 72' 5 1/2"
Engine and Tender Wheelbase:
UP 9000 - 91' 7" UP 3902 - 97' 11" UP 4002 - 117' 7"
Weight on Drivers:
UP 9000 - 354,000 lbs UP 3902 - 386,000 lbs UP 4002 - 545,000 lbs
Weight of Engine:
UP 9000 - 495,000 lbs UP 3902 - 566,000 lbs UP 4002 - 772,000 lbs
Weight of Tender:
UP 9000 - 287,000 lbs UP 3902 - 310,000 lbs UP 4002 - 435,000 lbs
Tender Capacity:
UP 9000 - 15,000 gal UP 3902 - 18,350 gal UP 4002 - 25,000 gal
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Some observations - That each locomotive represents the "state of the art" in "largest built" steam locomotive for Union Pacific Railroad in the year it was built.
All locomotives used close to 68 inch drivers. Piston Stroke on all three engines is the same 32 inches the center cylinder on the 4-12-2 is one inch shorter. Tractive effort for Challenger and Union Pacific types is within 1000 lbs of each other and Big Boy tops these by 39,000 lbs. Boiler diameter for Union Pacific type is within two inches of Big Boy and Challenger. Flue tube length for all three engines is the same 22 feet. Combustion Chamber length is within 5 inches for Challenger and Union Pacific types and Big Boy is two feet longer. Grate Area for Union Pacific and Challenger is a total of 108 square feet and the Big Boy has 42 square feet more. Union Pacific 4-12-2 has more boiler Heating Surface Evaporative Area than Big Boy by 60 square feet and 400 more square feet evaporative area than Challenger. Superheating Surface Area is larger in the 4-12-2 than Big Boy by 500 square feet and Big Boy has in turn 500 square feet more Superheater Surface area than Challenger - thats a lot of Superheat Surface area for the 4-12-2.
"Driver wheelbase" for Big Boy is 47 feet, the Challenger is 35 feet and Union Pacific is 30 feet.
"Engine wheelbase" is 72 feet in engine length for Big Boy 60 feet in engine length for Challenger and 52 feet in engine length for Union Pacific.
"Engine and Tender inclusive wheelbase" is 117 feet for the Big Boy and 98 feet for the Challenger and 91 feet in length for the 4-12-2 - total length between Challenger and Union Pacific is only 7 foot but when they went to Big Boy they went for 26 feet more.
Engine "weight on the drivers" for Challenger is 40,000 lbs heavier than for Union Pacific and Big Boy is 200,000 lbs heavier on the drivers.
The famous "total engine weight" for Big Boy tops the world's scales at 772,000 lbs, Challenger comes in at 566,000 and Union Pacific at 495,000 lbs. It is interesting to note the 4-8-8-4 is 30% heavier than the 4-12-2. Union Pacific Type was long and lean.
Big Boy at 772,000 lbs compares to 751,000 lbs for C&O "Allegheny" 717,000 lbs for Northern Pacific 2-8-8-4, 665,000 lbs for Rio Grande 2-8-8-2, 657,000 lbs for the SP "cab forward" and 628,700 lbs for the B&O 2-8-8-4, and 573,000 lbs for N&W "1218."
Union Pacific 4-12-2 engine weight of 495,000 lbs compares to other rigid frame steam - Santa Fe 5000 class 2-10-4 is 538,000 lbs, and Santa Fe 3700 class "northern" is 510,000 lbs. - Pennsy Q2 non articulated duplex was 621,100 lbs and Pennsy T1 duplex was 497,200. New York Central's "fleet footed "Niagara" 4-8-4 was only 471,000 lbs. I don't have specs for the UP "Four Eight Four."
"Engine train speed" for Union Pacific 4-12-2 are reported 60 mph, for the Challenger its 70 mph, and for Big Boy its back to 60 mph.
The 1926 Union Pacific "three cylinder" 4-12-2 design is of course a copy of English practice. One must remember that in England the "three cylinder" was highly successful as a high speed passenger engine and used to set the world speed record of 126 mph. The Gresley valve gear developed in England was used on the 4-12-2 with license from Sir John Gresley in England. The four cylinder articulated Challenger and Big Boy were a second generation design concepts to go where it was not possible to build a 4-12-4 or a 4-16-4 for the railroad.
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