Holy crap they really are going authentic, I would have thought for sure they would convert to a 26L for commonality with the rest of their diesel fleet.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
844
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
blue streak 1Here is a minor update on both 844 & 4014. Rebuilt brake control & stand. Any one know what the brake type is ( such as 26L ) ?
Clearly labeled in the video as an 8ET. His choice of words explaining what the automatic brake system does is a bit strange, as if it were unfamiliar.
I hope everyone noted the last few sentences about how they have all the 'subassemblies' done and are going to start bolting the locomotive back together ... that shuld not really take them all that long, if all the 'quality assurance' stuff has been done.
that is what I head too, but I would have liked to see the locomotive operate with caol first
I joined the 844 community on Facebook they are got all 58 tubes reinstalled in her plus started on all the Superheaters they said. From what was being said in previous updates of what they found in teardown that problems were being hidden. The airbrake stand had not been rebuilt for 60 years some of the piping under the cab was original according to some with inside knowledge. The kicker was what they found with some of the parts that Steve Lee supposedly rebuilt in 1994. They had just been repainted not stripped and gone thru. They found studs corroded off and other issues that were older than the last Overhaul. In one video the new guy claims that part of the reversor what ever that is had so much wear in it they were amazed that it even worked.
Don't forget the asbestos they said they found on 844 too...
Sorry, I hear a lot of "stuff" coming from Cheyenne, and it is not adding up. I trust people like Wes Camp, Steve Lee, Bob Krieger, Jack Wheelihan, the whole WRRC group, etc.
They've been working on and with steam locomotives for decades, and have a great track record. They've also proven MANY things that have been said from the current group wrong. And there are other sucessful steam operators who say the same thing - the current UP Steam shop is not good!
Let's look at just a few examples recently:
1. Turnover at the UP Steam shop has been 200% in recent years
2. The fact that the boiler of 844 is full of sludge is due to changing long-successful water treatment programs and not doing proper blow-downs.
3. Flat-spotting the drivers
4. Wrecking the tool car
5. Others, which i won't go into here
I am hoping for the best, but I fear the worst until some things (people!) change in Cheyenne.
S. Connor Don't forget the asbestos they found on 844 too...
Don't forget the asbestos they found on 844 too...
stdgauge S. Connor Don't forget the asbestos they found on 844 too... WRONG. It was found on 4014 AFTER it was moved back to Wyoming. Yet another error....
Tell that to Mr. Dickens. From the man himself, they found asbestos on 844: https://youtu.be/YsPl73r6i18?t=11m37s
What about all of it that he missed on 4014???
Sorry, too many stories coming out of Cheyenne. I trust the true, proven experts.
Shadow the Cats ownerI went over all the reports I found in the Facebook 844 group. They did find asbestos on the 844 in the air brake stand. It had never been apart in the last 60 years. Some of the packing in it was asbestos according to both a video and other people. 60 years without tearing apart the brake stand. As for your turnover question why has it been higher easy the new guy has instituted Quality control on the work plus is demanding someone be held accountable for their work for the first time in years. I guess no one ever had to be held responsible if it broke down on the road. He wants a reliable engine on the road away from Cheyenne. The sludge in the boiler they found so much other stuff wrong with the boiler that the sludge was the least of their concerns. Stuff like Busted Stay bolts improper mounted stays also 2 of the 4 washout plugs had not been removed for 30+ years how do they know that from the amount of Rust on them. They literally had to cut them out of the boiler. The Stays that where broken not one had the weep hole in them so they only found them broken when they tore down the boiler. The tool car getting damaged was an accident.
I fired off a question on the amount of asbestos found on the 844 and 4014 via the Facebook group and wheter they knew about the asbestos on 4014 when they took it from CA. The answer I got back was they where fully aware of all the Asbestos on the 4014 and where going to remidiate during its overhaul as scheduled. They found close to 60 Lbs of asbestos total on 844 and they had paperwork signed off by Steve Lee himself stating that all asbestos had been removed in the 70's by certified personal.
stdgauge,
I have done most of the steam mechanical activities that Ed Dickens and crew are doing on UP 844 only I worked on PM 1225.
Replacing and installing the large studs into the boiler plate for accessory mounting, working on the boiler feed ball check valves and piping. Reaming out the multiple throttle assembly, hanging the entire locomotive throttle from quadrant to valve head. Removing the side rods and valve gear, working on the brake rigging.
I guess I never did large scale "hot riveting" like they are doing to the firebox interior.
I have even turned the large brass main rod bushings on the huge shop lathe and done it to blueprint spec.
I find little or nothing to complain about Ed Dickens and his work crew - in fact they have very high standards of work.
I feel bad that Union Pacific moved out your friends and "the former steam crew" but that's the company politics of getting fired.
So do us all a favor and quit complaining about the "true steam crew," we are all stuck with the Ed Dickens administration and would like to enjoy this one spectacular steam restoration event in peace.
As with any crew, all are different with different focus, different strengths and abilities - and the new Ed Dickens bunch is here even if they are more like museum conservators and curators.
I am just real dam glad that someone is rebuilding the 4-8-4 - any 4-8-4 to that degree of quality. And they also have the entire class 1 Union Pacific railroad to run the locomotive on! Try to find that anywhere else in the USA besides Cumbries & Toltec Senic RR or Durango Silverton RR.
Likely UP 844 will run the remainder of your and my lifetime! I'm glad, arn't you?
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Doc
Doc, we don't always agree, but this time you nailed it. Company culture is company culture. Its time to stop listening to rumors and let the up get on with it.
I don't know if everyone one saw up latest financial results. But they took a big hit, we are lucky they haven't scaled back their steam program like ns has.
So less complaining and bit more support. Their are far worse possible out comes out their.
Dr D stdgauge, I have done most of the steam mechanical activities that Ed Dickens and crew are doing on UP 844 only I worked on PM 1225. Replacing and installing the large studs into the boiler plate for accessory mounting, working on the boiler feed ball check valves and piping. Reaming out the multiple throttle assembly, hanging the entire locomotive throttle from quadrant to valve head. Removing the side rods and valve gear, working on the brake rigging. I guess I never did large scale "hot riveting" like they are doing to the firebox interior. I have even turned the large brass main rod bushings on the huge shop lathe and done it to blueprint spec. I find little or nothing to complain about Ed Dickens and his work crew - in fact they have very high standards of work. I feel bad that Union Pacific moved out your friends and "the former steam crew" but that's the company politics of getting fired. So do us all a favor and quit complaining about the "true steam crew," we are all stuck with the Ed Dickens administration and would like to enjoy this one spectacular steam restoration event in peace. As with any crew, all are different with different focus, different strengths and abilities - and the new Ed Dickens bunch is here even if they are more like museum conservators and curators. I am just real dam glad that someone is rebuilding the 4-8-4 - any 4-8-4 to that degree of quality. And they also have the entire class 1 Union Pacific railroad to run the locomotive on! Try to find that anywhere else in the USA besides Cumbries & Toltec Senic RR or Durango Silverton RR. Likely UP 844 will run the remainder of your and my lifetime! I'm glad, arn't you? -------------------- Doc
Missing Fantrips! Yes, I will grant you that there is more going on today about meticulious restoration of UP 844 into "museum piece" condition than gett'n her down the road on another excursion! Possibly this restoration effort will become the ground work for real workable steam program in the future. Imagine an engine of this restoration quality actually running though!
Whatever the case, you are not going to change Union Pacific's plans about having Ed Dickens in charge of whatever game they are up to by whining about it. Clarity of vision is needed here.
Water Treatment and Boiler Blow Down Procedures or lack thereof also seem to be one of the main concerns about the damage to the FEF - as they are on all steam locomotives. Just why this procedure was altered on UP 844 is unclear.
I believe the boiler blow down procedures may be changing as part of an Enviornmental Protection Agency concern for random toxic ground pollution covered under new guidelines limiting the locations and manor in which this can be performed.
Similar enviornmental concerns govern the dumping of firebox waste ash and other combustion products onto the ground to say nothing of the oil and exhaust smoke pollution issues. Hasn't California prohibited railroad steam locomotive exhaust? Seems that many things we once took for granted like passenger car waste may now become some kind of future haz-mat issues. The days of smoking it up for a fan trip run by surely must be over! Possibly UP may have concerns over other looming politically correct issues.
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I know Ross Rowland and have ridden in the cab of C&O 614 with him. Rowland and McCormack, however knowledgable do not constitute the responsibile, opinions and decisions of a Class 1 railroad like Union Pacific.
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Yah, I heard the part where Ed Dickens talks about being a M60 machine gunner in the Army. I would think they would have chosen a former Army officer for leadership in a managment position such as the UP steam shop. A US Army sergeant might make a better foreman than a steam program director.
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It is what it is!
Shadow the Cats ownerI have gone back thru and watched the updates they have posted on youtube. In them they described how the Separator had quit working allowing scale and sludge buildup and that 3 different drainage tubes that were supposed to end up under the firebox instead had been routed into the firebox and various lines that should have been steel tubes had been replaced by rubber hoses by the last crew to run her. Sorry if your running a locomotive that has never been retired at all by your employer you do not jury rig repairs. I looked at my husbands old issues of Trains magazine when 844 was put back into service after her overhaul in the 90's by Steve Lee. Even on her Break-in run things did not sound right to me back then looking back. He was like she has a pair of Air Compressors she can run with one of them out of service or the Diesel helper can provide the air needed for the train. HELLO that is not how you run a railroad steam program.
Could we please stop the back-and-forth about what is happening?
This thread is about the Big Boy 4014, not the polictics of the UP steam program and what has happened in past years. If that is what you so desire to discuss, keep the mud-slinging in private message, or start a new thread.
Shadow the cats owner..... you are not gonna make any friends by upsetting people or picking fights. the people in this thread me including have discussed this in depth. you coming in and telling us were wrong is not a good idea. i lived in cheyenne. i have discussed the hard water issue in the thread. check the notes..... cheyenne has alway,s had hard water. the railroad new this. even way back then. they developed a very strict plan on how to treat the hard water and the scale it created. worked very well. fast forward to the issue with 844,s boiler. the fact that the treatment was tweaked and the additive of chlorine was the result. think about what chlorine can do in a boiler. it eats it. cause the acide in it. what does acide do to mettle. it eats it up like crazy. leading the discovery to what happend to the left side of the boiler. now if you think i am wrong in what i say and know..... me and my peers can back me up in my knowledge and theirs as well. as i and they have proved it in the threads i and them that have written and responded to. and i personally don't like you taking jabs at my friends who may know more then you.
HERE IT IS - a few facts concerning STEAM LOCOMOTIVE BOILER POLLUTION that may be the reason that Union Pacific is handling the steam program differently.
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From the Healthcare Enviornmental Resource Center.
STEAM BOILERS
The enviornmental impact from steam generating boilers can arise from smoke air emissions from burning fuel, also from wastewater from blowdown and cleaning procedures, and from ash solid waste disposal.
AIR EMISSIONS POLLUTION FROM BURNING FUELS
Use of commonly obtained gas, coal, solid waste, or any combination of these fuels produce smoke exhaust pollutants. Air emissions from boilers include smog producing compounds of nitrogen oxides and volatile organic compounds which in the presence of sunlight combine to form ground level ozone. The effect upon humans can exacerbate asthma, cause lung damage, irritate eyes and similarly damage plant life.
Air emissions also include smoke particulate matter which can lodge in the human lung causing respiratory difficulty. Can include Carbon monoxide which combines with hemoglobin in the human lung to prevent oxygen transport. Can include sulpher dioxide which is a component of acid rain. Can include air toxins known to or are suspected to cause adverse health effects in humans and the enviornment. Smoke can cause greenhouse gases of carbon dioxide, a product of combustion of fuels to generate greenhouse gases that contribute to global warming.
BOILER BLOWDOWN WASTE WATER POLLUTION
Non-combustion pollution waste waters are generated from the activity of operating steam boilers. These are all released to water. These non-combustion wastes are from water used for once-through cooling, cooling system blowdowns, boiler water blowdowns, water-side boiler cleaning operations, and demineralizer regenerant cleaning chemicals.
FIREBOX WASTE ASH POLLUTION PRODUCTS
Bottom and fly ash and flue gas desulfurization waste products result from the burning of fuels that are not related to those smoke pollution products released through the locomotive smoke stack. Firebox ash is the typical solid waste product and may also include flue gas desulfurization products washed out of the firebox in solid or water slurry form. Because firebox ash can contain heavy metals and other hazardous components it should be disposed of with care.
AIR POLLUTANTS RELEASED BY FIREBOX FUEL TYPE
COAL FUEL - Smoke to air emissions in the form of sulfer dioxide, nitrogen oxide, carbon monoxide, volitile organic compounds, particulate matter, and metals such as arsenic, beryllium, cadmium, chromium, mercury, lead, selenium and also sulfur emissions come from the locomotive stack.
Boiler blowdown waste water emissions are in the form of clorine, organic chemicals, metals, acids, suspended solids and dissolved solids, ferrrous sulfate, sulfuric acid and pyrite.
Firebox waste ash pollutants are in the form of heavy metals, ferrous sulfate, sulfuric acid, calcium sulphate, and calcium oxide.
OIL FUEL - Smoke stack air pollution emissions are in the form of sulpher dioxide, nitrogen oxide, carbon monoxide, volitile organic compounds, particulate matter, metals like arsenic, beryllium, cadmium, chromium, also sulfur, hazardous air polutants and hydrogen cloride.
Boiler blowdown waste water discharges of chlorine, organic chemicals, metals, acids, suspended solids and disolved solids as well as metals.
Firebox waste products contain volatile organic compounds and heavy metals.
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Steam Boiler pollutions are monitored under the following federal acts of legislation in the United States of America.
CLEAN AIR ACT - New Source Performance Standards, section 111 requires the Enviornmental Protection Agency (EPA) to establish federal emission standards for source categories which cause or contribute significantly to air pollution. - for details see the Combustion Portal Boiler NSPS section of the law.
NATIONAL EMISSION STANDARDS FOR HAZARDOUS AIR POLUTIANTS - (NESHAPs) are emission standards set by the United States Enviornmental Protection Agency (EPA) for an air pollution not covered by the National Ambiant Air Quality Standards (NQAAQS) that may cause and increase in fatalities or in serious, irreversible, or incapacitating illness. - for details see the Combustion Portal Boiler NESHAP section of the law.
ASBESTOS - Any steam boiler or facility that contains asbestos used in insulation for boilers and pipes is subject to the Asbestos National Emission Standard for Hazardous Air Pollutants (NESHAP). The demolition or renovation standards stipulate Enviornmental Protection Agency (EPA) notification and proper handling and disposal when asbestos material is disturbed.
NOx SIP Call - This is the nitrous oxide state implementation call requiring 22 states and the District of Columbia to submit state implementation plans that address regional transport of ground level-ozone pollution, requiring emission reduction measures to be in place by May 1, 2003. The law requires control of ozone recursors such as nitrous oxide which are emitted by - fuel fired steam boilers.
CLEAN WATER ACT - The water used in the maintaince of steam boilers which can contain pollution contaminants must be managed in accordance with a pretreatment program. The law is addressed in Clean Water Act (CWA) National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) and is controlled by the issuing of permits to dump boiler water. The generation of waste water streams and their effluent limitations cover chemical boiler metal cleaning generated wastes monitored for total suspended solids, oil and grease, iron and copper. Non chemical metal cleaning waste water products of boiler maintaince are monitored for "low cleaning water usage." All boiler blowdown water disposal is monitored for acid, poly-clorinated biphenyls also known infamously as PCB's. Boiler cooling water blowdown procedures are monitored by the Enviornmental Protection Agency for "flow assisted corrosion", chromium, and zinc content.
Coal pile storage rain water or wash water runoff is also checked now for total suspended solids. This part of the law would effect locomotive tenders of coal fired boilers.
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It seems odd to me that Union Pacific Railroad Steam Program director Ed Dickens is so concerned for the ongoing firebox water jacket repairs. Specifically the mud ring to lower corner plate repairs and of the erroded sections of the mud ring itself. After all this is a 65 year old firebox that has been continually patched up on UP 844.
Ed Dickens in the latest video release keeps talking about the many years of damage to the steel caused by "flow assisted corrosion." Which also just happens to be one of the legal concerns of the Clean Water Act (CWA) which monitors for high levels of "flow assisted corrosion," and also for the Enviornmental Protection Agency (EPA) legal monitoring of "frequency of boiler blowdown produre" under Clean Water Act (CWA) - National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES).
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We better re-think what might be really going on with the reduction of boiler blowdowns and the hyper repairs to UP 844's boiler in the updated UP Steam Program.
I was not trying to start a fight at all. My husband has several friends that work for the UP including a couple in Cheyenne in the Steam Program they transferred into it in the last couple years. They have been there thru the moving of 4014 into Cheyenne from CA and also the Overhaul of 844. One of them is a friend of his from HS and was less than impressed with the quality of work of the last crew. His father was a High pressure Steam fitter at our local Nuke plant and sent him a few pics for his father to look at. His father's words were colorful to say the least.
I looked up the New EPA guidelines for water treatment of Boilers in Steam engines since that was brought up. The UP had no choice but to change what they were doing as the Prior method was deemed a danger to the enviroment. So what do you do risk being fined possibly Millions of Dollars per excursion and have to stop or change to different process that complies with the EPA. Same thing with the Fuel Source going from Waste oil to #2 Diesel. Waste oil is contaminated with heavy metals like Lead and other things that you do not want people breathing in. Diesel fuel is a lot safer and eaiser to get your hands on. Also with waste oil there is always the chance it could be contaminated with Antifreeze so to comply they had to change fuel.
Businesses have to adapt to keep up with regulations. If the UP wants to keep running Steam in the 21st Century they better keep the EPA happy or 844 3985 and 4014 are all going to end up stuffed and mounted on a track someplace.
Lots of "trolling" going on in this thread...those of you who are truly interested in UP steam and want to see for yourself whats happening should head to Cheyenne later this month for Cheyenne Depot Days. It's the one time each year when UP lets the general public into the steam shop.
I'll be there! :)
Sound's like a plan
i agree. wish i could go back to the town i lived in and loved . but can't. live in oregon now. so would be very far to travel. it would be worth it.
As an aside, California has not banned smoke from steam locomotives, or smoke from any type of historical steam apparatus. It would be exempt as being a historical item, as much as we like our clean air, it doesn't qualify for the cap and trade system nor is it regulated...but the SF Bay Area is trying to ban fireplaces, at least wood burning ones, as if that's going to work.
Shadow the Cats ownerI looked up the New EPA guidelines for water treatment of Boilers in Steam engines since that was brought up. The UP had no choice but to change what they were doing as the Prior method was deemed a danger to the enviroment. So what do you do risk being fined possibly Millions of Dollars per excursion and have to stop or change to different process that complies with the EPA. Same thing with the Fuel Source going from Waste oil to #2 Diesel. Waste oil is contaminated with heavy metals like Lead and other things that you do not want people breathing in. Diesel fuel is a lot safer and eaiser to get your hands on. Also with waste oil there is always the chance it could be contaminated with Antifreeze so to comply they had to change fuel. Businesses have to adapt to keep up with regulations. If the UP wants to keep running Steam in the 21st Century they better keep the EPA happy or 844 3985 and 4014 are all going to end up stuffed and mounted on a track someplace.
1. What are all of the other successful steam operators that DON"T have boilers full of corrosive water and mud doing for water treatment if the old stuff was outlawed, and why does it work for them and not UP?
2. Please cite the exact EPA and/or FRA regulations that cover locomotive feed water.
3. Please cite the EPA and FRA regulations on steam locomotive fuel.
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