Hijacked train derails

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken

QUOTE: Originally posted by nssr9169

It is not at all ard to move a locomotive, even on our tourist line we ALWAYS REMOVE THE REVERSER BEFORE LEAVING A LOCOMOTIVE UN OCCUPIED, why can a little 23 mile museam operation remember somthing that I thought was a manditory safety procedure?

There is a difference between some dude on a tourist line that runs a silly 23 miles and a certified engineer and conductor. Do you know how your statement sounds to real rails? Think about it. Sheesh! Oh yeah, I have worked that job in Lawrence and what they did is SOP. The FRA should issue an emergency order to stop non qualified people from popping off and critisizing crews. Your signature "at the throttle of a sw blah blah blah." How silly! Most of us rails have spent more time in the crapper on the motor than you have on a loco total.

First off, just because something is SOP, it does not mean that there is no room for improvement. If you don't believe that then you're an accident waiting to happen[soapbox].

Second, if you have indeed spent that much time in the locomotive crapper as you claim, then obviously you have not worked for the railroad that long. Most of them I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole[xx(].

Last, spelling words like "criticizing" incorrectly and unneccessarily going off on the unsuspecting non-railroader public is nothing but an embarrasment to our profession [B)].

I read your profile you dork. Gee whiz, I am a proud graduate of the Modoc Railroad academy class of April 2005. When did you hire out? Which road do you work for? I am an embarassment to our profession? Really! C'mon wise guy how many years do you have in? I am an accident waiting to happen? Wow, maybe I should trade in my 11+ years in the industry (not all in TY&E) and get schooled correctly at a pissant foamer school especially on the subject of safety. You could have went to a real school such as N.A.R.S. in Kansas at least. You are a wannabe. Book geek. If you have less than 5 years, it is not OUR profession, it is MY profession and your on the job training. You smell of foamer! Maybe if I sell my BNSF Safety plates, I too can go to MODOC and become a pro in only 6 short weeks and then I'll be as smart as you! Now go stand at the switch. I'll tell you which way to line it. Can you handle that?

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

This may sound "a little far fetched" regarding locking cab doors, but in industrial complexes and if I'm not mistaken some marine vessels, doors are locked with a mechanism that requires a digital electronic code to unlock.

Maybe not now but perhaps in the future it may be practical for railroads. Potentially with locomotives traveling over different roads the dispatcher or road foreman would be made aware of "foreign power" coming onto his territory from the owner railroad's dispatchers. He could then transmit the door lock access codes by radio or computer to engineers or shop forces that must gain access to those cabs.

As stated, this won't keep "pros" out, but could thwart would be thrill seekers and joyriders.

I agree with you here. Digital Electronic code devices seem to me to be a good way to secure a locomotive. The only problem the railroad would run into with this technology is that, the Electronic Code Device may provide just about the same amount of protection as a pad lock, if the device is either "broken" or shot out, when it's forceibly broken will it go into an automatic "shut down" ? Preventing anything from working in the locomotive? Or will this device only shut down the entry doors? Then if the violater wanted to that person could bust up one of the windows to get in. Or is the railroad going to invest in what I like to call "City Convenince Store Glass" which is extreamly bullet, and shatter proof. Something like that may work. But than again if someone really wants to hijack a locomotive, they are going to find any means possible. It will also most likely be a well thought out plan too. Unfortunitly, all locks can be bypassed somehow, it's only a matter of patience, physics, and time. If it can be built it can be distroyed. [:(]

[rrandb]

The person who comitited this crime was not a terrorist or that knowledgeable as they were not aware of the derailer! Unless there plan was to put her on the ground in which case there plan worked perfectly. A terrorist who could move the train could defeat the derailer with little trouble. As a retired locksmith and safe technition most security devises are best at letting you know someone has or is invading your space. There is much truth in the old adage that locks keep out honest people. Each and everyone of us has a reponsibilty to our neigbors and community to always be vigilant in observing and reporting any suspious activity to the powers that be. It is only thru increased awarenes that maybe we can thwart the efforts of those that desire to do us harm. [2c]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

Those are those on here who say far too much and I suspect most of you haven't got as much seniority as my workcoat. Who are you trying to impress? We're all anonymous here, for the most part. Shhhhhhh.

Valley, you probably have work boots with more seniority than I have. Were you aiming that at me?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

All this talk about padlocks! If someone is determined to "hijack" a locomotive, a mere padlock is not going to even slow them down. Sure, they will stop an opportunist who sees a locomotive and wants to go inside and maybe mess up things, or steal from the grips. And a clever engineer can do things to a locomotive that will prevent anyone other than another trained (pun intended) person from getting it going.

Which reminds me: thanks to all the non-rails that wanted to show off their "knowledge" by announcing to the public the basic safety measures most train crews use to secure their equipment. How would you feel if someone used the information you posted to cause a REAL problem? Maybe caused injuries or death?

Please think before you post. There are greater concerns to consider.

I have a better idea, lets close down the Trains.com and other online railfan forums in the name of homeland security [:p]. Furthermore, if someone is determined enough to cut a padlock off of a locomotive cab door, then certainly none of the other safety measures are going to stop them either... it's only a matter of how long it takes them to figure it out.

[AntonioFP45]

This may sound "a little far fetched" regarding locking cab doors, but in industrial complexes and if I'm not mistaken some marine vessels, doors are locked with a mechanism that requires a digital electronic code to unlock.

Maybe not now but perhaps in the future it may be practical for railroads. Potentially with locomotives traveling over different roads the dispatcher or road foreman would be made aware of "foreign power" coming onto his territory from the owner railroad's dispatchers. He could then transmit the door lock access codes by radio or computer to engineers or shop forces that must gain access to those cabs.

As stated, this won't keep "pros" out, but could thwart would be thrill seekers and joyriders.

[edblysard]

Geeze guys, give it a rest...
In case you didnt catch it, the safey devices in place worked...and as was stated, often, you have to leave it running...as long as a derail or lined/locked facing point switch was in place...well, they made it an incredible 25 feet before they got on the ground...most of the railroaders here already know there really isnt anywhere for them to go that they cant be followed...what do you think, they were going to run it into a chop shop and part it out?

Or maybe steer it into an office building?

The worse they can do is manage to get on the main and hit another train...and unless they knew what the other train was carrying in the way of hazmat, and where it was in the train....not a very effectiv terrorist weapon.

And even if they managed to get it close to a yard, the DS would run them into a siding or a stub long before they could get anywhere near a yard proper.

Ed

[coborn35]

I hope I havent said anything revealing[*^_^*], but I beleive all ive said is know how to un-tie a train........I sure hope so.......If ive sadi anything else....well....it was a li eand you cant believe a word of it![D)][:-^][:-^]

[coborn35]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken

QUOTE: Originally posted by nssr9169

It is not at all ard to move a locomotive, even on our tourist line we ALWAYS REMOVE THE REVERSER BEFORE LEAVING A LOCOMOTIVE UN OCCUPIED, why can a little 23 mile museam operation remember somthing that I thought was a manditory safety procedure?

There is a difference between some dude on a tourist line that runs a silly 23 miles and a certified engineer and conductor. Do you know how your statement sounds to real rails? Think about it. Sheesh! Oh yeah, I have worked that job in Lawrence and what they did is SOP. The FRA should issue an emergency order to stop non qualified people from popping off and critisizing crews. Your signature "at the throttle of a sw blah blah blah." How silly! Most of us rails have spent more time in the crapper on the motor than you have on a loco total.

Actually, me and Kale spend alot of time on loco's a year. Many hours.
Im not disagreeing with you, im just stating a fact.

[ValleyX]

Those are those on here who say far too much and I suspect most of you haven't got as much seniority as my workcoat. Who are you trying to impress? We're all anonymous here, for the most part. Shhhhhhh.

[zardoz]

All this talk about padlocks! If someone is determined to "hijack" a locomotive, a mere padlock is not going to even slow them down. Sure, they will stop an opportunist who sees a locomotive and wants to go inside and maybe mess up things, or steal from the grips. And a clever engineer can do things to a locomotive that will prevent anyone other than another trained (pun intended) person from getting it going.

Which reminds me: thanks to all the non-rails that wanted to show off their "knowledge" by announcing to the public the basic safety measures most train crews use to secure their equipment. How would you feel if someone used the information you posted to cause a REAL problem? Maybe caused injuries or death?

Please think before you post. There are greater concerns to consider.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nssr9169

It is not at all ard to move a locomotive, even on our tourist line we ALWAYS REMOVE THE REVERSER BEFORE LEAVING A LOCOMOTIVE UN OCCUPIED, why can a little 23 mile museam operation remember somthing that I thought was a manditory safety procedure?

That is true. But, there are some things better left unsaid. This is a public forum in the fact that it is open for public viewing. So those of us who work for a railroad and know how to move a loco usually don't give such details to those who do not. It certainly is a good thing that you did not mention a few more details. SAFETY FIRST

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nssr9169

It is not at all ard to move a locomotive, even on our tourist line we ALWAYS REMOVE THE REVERSER BEFORE LEAVING A LOCOMOTIVE UN OCCUPIED, why can a little 23 mile museam operation remember somthing that I thought was a manditory safety procedure?

There is a difference between some dude on a tourist line that runs a silly 23 miles and a certified engineer and conductor. Do you know how your statement sounds to real rails? Think about it. Sheesh! Oh yeah, I have worked that job in Lawrence and what they did is SOP. The FRA should issue an emergency order to stop non qualified people from popping off and critisizing crews. Your signature "at the throttle of a sw blah blah blah." How silly! Most of us rails have spent more time in the crapper on the motor than you have on a loco total.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

What has bin laden got to do with someone (and we can guess who) that takes a train for a ride, goes 200 yards at 14 mph, and this would NOT be classified as a "hijacking" but someone will get a slight talking to for leaving the loco unattended. relax, just relax.

I have worked that job. Why would they get a talking to? Derails were up. Loco/locos were secured (depending on if it was the Lawrence/Tecumpseh coal power or the switcher power). The only thing that they could have done wrong is left the reverser on the unit. Unless they have newer GEs on that coal power, the MACs and old geep that is usually there must be left running as not to freeze up. The locos left unattended thing does not apply if they are secured against undesired movement and protected by a facing point switch lined and locked against main track movement or derail.

[mackb4]

If people would have read the thread that someone had on here sometime ago about the train setting in a siding with the door wide open....man someone needs to go back to that thead and read all that.This is why I can't understand the railroads not investing in a few locks.On the NS we are told to always lock the inside latch and then lock the frontdoor with the switch lock provided,when leaving a engine tied down outside a yard,or outlying part of the yard. I know how much deadly gases,chemicals and other who knows what out there is on the rails.I run those types of trains all the time,and see cars in yards,on sidings,and just think all the time how open the rail yards are.Just like I said in my comment on that thread mentioned above.If terrorist can figure out how to fly a big plane into a building,what could they do with a train.DON'T EVER UNDER ESTIMATE PEOPLE,ESPCIALLY CRAZY PEOPLE FOLKS ! If the engine had a lock on it and it was left unlocked.Fire that crew.If someone in the ranks made the decession on the BNSF to save a few bucks and not put locks on their engines.Fire them !People these rail yards and sidings are full of stuff that terrorist dream of. To use an Earl Pitts phrase,"Wake up America ! "

[kfleeman1]

Well whadaya know? It happened. I posted a topic about this very thing about a month ago and was basically told that it was no big deal and that nobody could figure out how to move a sitting locomotive and so on and so forth. Wrong.

Here is the link to that post. Check it out.
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=53945

[Anonymous]

"Furthermore, it is long overdue time that the AAR developed a national standard padlock for using on locomotive cabs."

The problem with this is eventually they will end up on ebay also just like switch keys and reversers.
And yes, it is criminal unless it fits a model no longer in service. Then it's just a piece of history.

[Anonymous]

As I said in my previous post on this topic, it is UMLIKELY that a potential train hijacker happens to have a reverser on him. Obviously, without knowledge of all of the details of the case, my statement was based on the assumption that the reverser was still in the control stand, in which case the crew did not take all "reasonable measures" to secure the locomotive. If they did in fact take the reverser out, and the hijacker was one of a few railfans that was savvy-enough to acquire a reverser through E-Bay or some other alternative source, then of course the train crew should not bear the responsibility for the incident.

Furthermore, it is long overdue time that the AAR developed a national standard padlock for using on locomotive cabs. We use such padlocks on our locomotives on our Class III shortline, but of course we can do that because our locomotives are never leased out or used on other railroads. Obviously the Class I's and II's don't have such a luxury as their locomotives travel all over the country, which is why there needs to be a standardized lock.

Also, just as an FYI, hopefully anyone selling switch locks, switch keys and employee manuals realizes that they are potentially criminally liable for property theft if the respective railroad catches them, as obviously these items were not obtained through any lawful means.

[Anonymous]

You can get a reverser on ebay- item # 6597402829. Though maybe just a tad vintage!
Like someone mentioned previously, one COULD make do with a little creativety and knowledge of locos. If someone wants something bad enough they will usually find a way.

[chad thomas]

How hard would it really be to enguage the reverser without a proper handle? Couldn't someone do it with a screwdriver? Or mabee a long bolt?

[Anonymous]

One thing all the railroad employees and for that matter non-railroad guys on this board. Most people who would spend the time to read this board or post here cares enough about the railroad and safety of their co-workers not to mention the general public to secure trains and locomotives left unattended. It's really not hard if you are expert on the subject like some web-railroaders are to get on the thing and move evern if the hide the reversor thing and all the breakers are down etc. Now if someone who leaves their engine out in the boondocks and the management gestapo is not as bad as it is here well maybe not securing the power is the normal way? Not the right way but just the way it is. Whenever i leave just engines somewhere i tighten the handbrake then test it with the throttle that way if little johnny takes the brakes off and makes for town with em on the download it'll show that my rear end is in the clear. That way if johhny or osama wants a ride i did all i could

[Anonymous]

Do we know what kind of unit it happened to be?

[route_rock]

All one has to do is knock off the handbrake. Coborn probably knows what I forgot to do even when I have the reverser in place and cant get the *** thing to move!!!!!!
Hes also right on about the whole MSTS comment. Only real life locomotive easy to move is a steam loco. And even then you have certain things you have to do to keep her going.
I am guessing kicked off the handbrake and kicked off the independent and off she rolled. A joy rider would have had it in run 8 going like a bat out of hades when he hit that derail.
BTW I work for BNSF we take the reverser out of the slot and put it where every other train crew puts it. In a holder or hidden somewhere where only other crews know. Plus if your a good engineer you always carry a few to spare.This whole crack that a small tourist line knows more than actual rairoaders is a farce( and before anyone jumps on me I belong to two tourist line orginizations and were with them before I got on here as are about 5 other people I know on my division)We have very profesional people working here.
One thing not stated is if it was a remote unit. Ever think of that?

[tree68]

Given enough gravity (ie, a grade), I think most folks with a little knowledge of locomotives could probably get one moving, even without the reverser. Maybe not in the direction they would like to go, but it could be moving. Even if the diesel quit. Think about it.

[Anonymous]

Next thing ya know, CNN will do a cover story on the Conductor Training Schools (who should be allowed in?) HAHAHA

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nssr9169

It is not at all ard to move a locomotive, even on our tourist line we ALWAYS REMOVE THE REVERSER BEFORE LEAVING A LOCOMOTIVE UN OCCUPIED, why can a little 23 mile museam operation remember somthing that I thought was a manditory safety procedure?

I have to agree with you myself. You always need to take the reverser out, that needs to be a FRA Rule.

[coborn35]

This must have been extensively planned out and researched, and/or he must have been a railorad employee, because as I said above, normal people, even railfans, can not get tied down trains rolling!

[ChrisBARailfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Lawrence KS, hmmm? Jayhawks? Has a familiar ring to it.

I can't imagine a Cornhusker doing any such thing......[:O]

LOL Mookie, but just in jest, at least a Jayhawk could get it moving, I doubt a Husker could.

[Mookie]

Lawrence KS, hmmm? Jayhawks? Has a familiar ring to it.

I can't imagine a Cornhusker doing any such thing......[:O]

[AntonioFP45]

A shame that railfans will be scrutinzed even more.

Farmer93,.......of course terrorists wouldn't be dumb enough to pull a stunt like this off. However, don't dismiss the Bin Ladin threats as propaganda.

Even the "anti-Bush" journalists in Europe are warning us that the threats are credible and not to overlook them as we did back before 9/11/01 when the French warned us.