Holy jeez, I had no idea what I was starting when I invoked the name W.E. Woodward! Somewhere in the Great Beyond that debunking old quasi-socialist is having a giggle knowing he's not forgotten.
I've read Woodward's "A New American History" and to call it a debunking history is putting it mildly. This guy didn't like anybody! Well OK, there were some exceptions like Stonewall Jackson (Woodward was a Southern boy) but everyone else, oh brother.
At least I haven't been accused of taking the name of Will Woodard, that genius from the Lima Locomotive Works who gave us Super Power, in vain!
Hey, I just swerved us back into train content!
“Railroads should throw their stocks and bonds away as mine did and get down to business and make some money.”
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=990CE3D8103CE533A2575AC2A9669D946095D6CF
Woodward was to history what Elbert Hubbard was to philosophy.
No mention of Henry Ford's quote in 1916, that history is more or less bunk?
"Learn to read and write, then work out your own ideas, mix with people, get experience."
Firelock76 ... as a 30's historian W.E. Woodard put it "All the Americans got out of the World War was out."
Is this from the same alternate history where famous locomotive designer C. Vann Woodward developed Super-Power?
Firelock76 Sadly, it also makes understandable the disbelief of the rumors of the Holocaust when they started coming out of Europe. American leaders had "heard it all before" 25 years earlier. Sad thing was, this time it was true.
Sadly, it also makes understandable the disbelief of the rumors of the Holocaust when they started coming out of Europe. American leaders had "heard it all before" 25 years earlier. Sad thing was, this time it was true.
Unfortunately some of what was being during wartime about the concentration camps was propaganda as well. Also didn't help that the Ukrainian mass starvation of the early Thirties got swept under the rug. In the collection of old Reader's Digests that included the Dec. 1945 issue with the story on the Great Escape was a late 1933 issue with a story about concentration camps being set up (using that term BTW and presenting them as an evil thing) and a 1934 or '35 issue with a reprint from a Sci. Am. article extolling the eugenics work being done in Germany.
Ironically, one person who was trying to get the US government to take the German military advances seriously and respond with appropriate increases in military preparedness was tarred with the "isolationist" label - that person being C.A Lindbergh.
As for movies...
I remember watching "Away All Boats" with a bunch of OREM buddies - one of them being the late Wally Richards who served on the landing ships in WW2. Wally's comment was the movie was pretty accurate, which may have had a lot to do with a mid-1950's release date (e.g. about the same time as the original "Dam Busters"). WW2 movies made in the 1960's and later have tended to be a lot more cavalier about historical accuracy.
- Erik
Firelock76 Chaplin's speech at the end of "Great Dictator" is just magnificent! Moving and absolutely timeless. "Great Dictator" was Chaplin's first talkie and when ol' Charlie decided to "speak" what came out of him was just unforgettable. If Hitler did see the film it's for damn sure he didn't learn anything from it.
Chaplin's speech at the end of "Great Dictator" is just magnificent! Moving and absolutely timeless. "Great Dictator" was Chaplin's first talkie and when ol' Charlie decided to "speak" what came out of him was just unforgettable.
If Hitler did see the film it's for damn sure he didn't learn anything from it.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Isolationists also came down hard on another film, Warner Brothers 1939 movie "Confessions Of A Nazi Spy." It got good reviews at the time and it's considered a classic today, one of an astounding number of great movies that were released in 1939, but it bombed at the box office.
The Three Stooges did an anti-Nazi short of their own, "You Nazty Spy" in 1940, beating Chaplin to the punch by several months. Being the Stooges they didn't get the grief Chaplin did but they were always proud that they did the first film to spoof Hitler directly.
I'm a student of the First World War and yes, the isolationist sentiment of the 1930's is very understandable. After the war many Americans felt they'd been sold a bill of goods by the British and the French, and as a 30's historian W.E. Woodward put it "All the Americans got out of the World War was out."
I should add that despite what some people think or would have you believe isolationism cut right across party lines, there were Republican and Democratic isolationists. The American Communist Party was anti-interventionist as well, at least while Hitler had his non-agression pact with Stalin.
The opposition to getting involved in Europe was backlash from what happened in WW1, particularly the over the top propaganda effort (e.g. liberty cabbage) and high casualty rate, which would be equivalent to 32,000 fatalaties per month now.
As a kid reading about the run-up to WW2, I had wondered why the isolationist and pacifist movements was so strong in the US. After reading about what happened in WW1, the motives of the isolationist and pacifist movements made a lot more sense. I had also wondered why Orwell used the term "liberty cabbage" in 1984, then later realized he was trying to remind people what happened in the US in WW1.
Isolationists in the United States came down hard on Charlie Chaplin for making "The Great Dictator". They treated it as a propaganda piece to get the United States involved in a European war.
From what I've read no one really knows what Hitler's reaction to Chaplin's "The Great Dictator" was. The film was banned in Nazi Germany, for obvious reasons, although it's known that Hitler did get a copy of it and watched it out of curiosity. However, Hitler had seen earlier Chaplin comedys and did enjoy them.
Firelock76 "To Be Or Not To Be," great film. Interestingly, it's got one of the best arrangements of "Deutschland Uber Alles" I've ever heard, very stirring and stately. Ironic, since it's an anti-German fim. You had to mention "The Producers", didn't you? Now "Springtime for Hitler" is going to be running through my head for the rest of the evening!
"To Be Or Not To Be," great film. Interestingly, it's got one of the best arrangements of "Deutschland Uber Alles" I've ever heard, very stirring and stately. Ironic, since it's an anti-German fim.
You had to mention "The Producers", didn't you? Now "Springtime for Hitler" is going to be running through my head for the rest of the evening!
vsmith Remember HH was two years *before* Mel Brooks put the goosestepping boot right into Hitlers groin with The Producers.
Remember HH was two years *before* Mel Brooks put the goosestepping boot right into Hitlers groin with The Producers.
1942 Jack Benny movie To Be Or Not To Be
I remember "The Birdmen!" Chuck Connors, Doug McClure, Rene Auborjonois, Richard Basehart as the Kommandant (does anyone else miss that mans incredible speaking voice as much as I do?), great TV film, one of the better ones, along with "Duel" and "The Night Stalker."
If you've never read the book "The Great Escape" by Paul Brickhill I'd suggest you do so. It's a great read and possibly the best of the WW2 escape stories.
You know, in some cases people say "the book was better than the movie," or other times (not often) "the movie was better than the book," but in this case the book "The Great Escape" and the movie version complement each other beautifully. My favorite WW2 film.
Have fun with your trains
erikem The big difference is that WW2 was their grandparents generation, where my dad and a good number of my friends' dads were WW2 vets.
Yes. A quote from James Michener's book "Tales of the South Pacific", "Longer and longer shadows will obscure them, until their Guadalcanal sounds distant on the ear like Shiloh and Valley Forge".
ouibejamn Firelock76 "Stalag 17" is a great film. Don't forget "The great Escape", another good POW movie. Based on real events. Several years ago on PBS some archeologists unearthed the escape tunnel at the old camp. All very interesting. Not the most talked about part of WWII, but still...
Firelock76 "Stalag 17" is a great film.
Don't forget "The great Escape", another good POW movie. Based on real events. Several years ago on PBS some archeologists unearthed the escape tunnel at the old camp. All very interesting. Not the most talked about part of WWII, but still...
The story behind the "Great Escape" was talked about quite a bit in the years immediately following WW2. The December 1945 issue of Reader's Digest had a version of the story.
It's weird talking to my kids about WW2 as thay don't have anywhere near the same knowledge that my classmates and I had at their age. The big difference is that WW2 was their grandparents generation, where my dad and a good number of my friends' dads were WW2 vets.
Firelock76 "Stalag 17" is a great film. It should have been accurate, the two playwrights ( I forget their names) who wrote the play that became the movie were POW's in a German Stalag. I love "Stalag 17!" "Animal" and Harry Shapiro are my heroes! Steal every scene they're in! As an aside, the crowd I ran with in school were all World War Two history buffs, and were fascinated by the various POW escape stories that came out of the war. So much so we called the junior high school we attended (they call 'em middle schools now) "Stalag 17." The high school was down the road a bit and on top of a hill. We called it "Colditz Castle" when we got there.
"Stalag 17" is a great film. It should have been accurate, the two playwrights ( I forget their names) who wrote the play that became the movie were POW's in a German Stalag.
I love "Stalag 17!" "Animal" and Harry Shapiro are my heroes! Steal every scene they're in!
As an aside, the crowd I ran with in school were all World War Two history buffs, and were fascinated by the various POW escape stories that came out of the war. So much so we called the junior high school we attended (they call 'em middle schools now) "Stalag 17." The high school was down the road a bit and on top of a hill. We called it "Colditz Castle" when we got there.
Firelock76"Stalag 17" is a great film.
Anyone who watched Hogans Heroes and expected historical accuracy needs to smacked hard upside the head and told to "snap out of it". HH was a SITCOM, a silly 60's sitcom at that, the entire point was to make people laugh, anyone crying inaccuracies is like someone watching I Dream of Jennie and be-hitching that Nasa wasn't portrayed correctly or whining about inaccurate Railroad operations on Petticoat Junction, there TV shows, there not documentaries. I will say one thing HH did do right was to play up the Nutzies often hilariously uptight, officious and by-the-rules nature, and that many Nutzies were right off the farm and not the sharpest tools in the shed. It was the first media to portray the Nutzies in a manner to take the horror of the third retch and instead play up the aspects that made them laughable buffoons, which in some respects they were. Remember HH was two years *before* Mel Brooks put the goosestepping boot right into Hitlers groin with The Producers. HH helped demistify the Nutzies for millions of Americans and showed they were not all supermen but could be as stupid and major screwups like anyone. As Brooks says (paraphrasing) How do you deal with a monster like Hitler (nutzies), by mocking them incescently until they loose their teeth and your left with a short angry paperhanger with a silly moustache.
And Atomic Train was SO bad I wish I could neuralize it!
Firelock76Because it made the Germans look stupid.
A long-ago friend of the family was a POW in Germany. While he didn't regard his captors as stupid, I believe he did say that the personnel staffing the POW camps weren't the sharpest tacks in the box (which is why they were at the camps and not on the front line). I don't know that he lived long enough to see "Hogan's Heros", but I heard that he had said that Stalag 17 (the movie) was fairly accurate.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
One of the Kalmbach people explained it a while back, I forget if it was on this Forum or the Classic Toys Trains one, but it was explained that there's a time limit on posters. If there's no activity from a poster for a certain length of time (I forget how long) the posters "nom de plume" is changed from whatever it was to "Anonymous."
No deep mystery here.
Oh, and "Anonymous" mentioned "Hogan's Heroes." When I was a kid I loved that show, all the kids did. However, one of my uncles, a World War Two Army Air Force vet absolutely HATED it. Why? Because it made the Germans look stupid. NOT that he was a fan of the Germans, far from it. He said the Germans weren't stupid, they were smart as whips and damn dangerous and the only reason we beat them was because they "ran out of fuel." A bit of an over-simplification, but I could see what he was getting at.
WizlishFor those who don't get the Convicted One's sarcasm, it's another incompetence of the IT "programmers" who wrote (or improperly maintained) some of the site code.
Actually, Anonymous logins were allowed in the past when the Kalmback forum software did not require a login account.
As for 'programmer incompetence', you must look a little further up the food chain. Kalmbach has a very small IT staff and no doubt has to purchase what software will be least expensive to maintain for its modest needs. Non-IT saavy management will often hire some overpriced consultant with a pretty sloppy 'statement of work', hence this current forum.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
And on evilbay
cacole Atomic Train is available on You Tube.
Atomic Train is available on You Tube.
Convicted One Anonymous How in the name of all that is good, did you get 285,000 posts here?
Anonymous
How in the name of all that is good, did you get 285,000 posts here?
Anonymous gets assigned to all that have been banned and I guess all their posts get added together.
Convicted OneHow in the name of all that is good, did you get 285,000 posts here?
surely you can figure that out!
For those who don't get the Convicted One's sarcasm, it's another incompetence of the IT "programmers" who wrote (or improperly maintained) some of the site code. If users leave, or are banned, the software still needs to 'identify' the post with some sort of monicker or whatever. When it can't find a valid identifier to a registered member, it defaults to 'anonymous', even though the site is registration-only to post and 'anonymous' shouldn't even be in the default options list. Then the code that updates post count is too stupid to recognize that 'anonymous' is a catchall for a Very Large Number of orphan posts... and just tots and tots and tots it up. This is not exactly GIGO, it's more like the old parable about the barrels of wine and sewage.
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