PennsyBoomerThere is no more correlation between graffiti and mechanical condition than there is that grime on an auto is indication the tires are going flat or the trasnsmission is busted.
You're dead on. All this stuff about "what else did they miss" and "it shows no pride" is complete nonsense. All it does demonstrate is that the typical freightcar spends much of its life outside of a secured area. Locomotives spend, on average, more of their idle time in more secure areas and they're less likely to be tagged. Amtrak equipment spends more of its idle time in secure areas and I'm not sure I've ever seen one tagged. WMATA, MARC, and VRE don't get tagged because they're stored behind fences. That's it. That's all it is.
Won't bother the corporate weasels keeping the wall street trash happy and demanding ever larger returns. Good corporate citizens are becoming hard to find these days.
Diesel- fried chicken guy's current project is being threatened by the NS mess even though they had nothing to do with it and are far away. The chicken littles of the world, irrational and uninformed as they are, are exploding in number and being stirred-up by the wackos in the yellow press.
Not a popular or "realistic" thought, but to me graffiti reveals poor use of the asset. Also no pride in the effort. Sad.
"If the railroads and other car owners cannot manage to keep the graffiti cleaned off the equipment and keep it painted, what else are they missing?"
Fred, this really sounds like apples and oranges. Unless you run a cut of cars through some sort of chemical paint wash every time they are pulled, the problem is nearly intractable. It is a visual depiction of the state of society that seems to accept such behavior. Moreover, graffiti has its fans and a lot of rolling stock has been rendered a blank canvas with little more than a reporting mark. There is no more correlation between graffiti and mechanical condition than there is that grime on an auto is indication the tires are going flat or the trasnsmission is busted.
Remember - the desired level of required maintenance among the railroads is - ZERO
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Overmod that it would NOT be fitted with a zerk or any other sort of field-supplied lubricant. Too many contaminants that can get in; too many ways for the little ball head to break off and leave a channel into the bearing. Better seal design is where to put your effort.
Completely agree. I was just trying to point out that in the absence of fittings, there really isn't a lot of periodic maintenance to do (or miss) on a sealed bearing. Look for looseness, look for leaks, look for discoloration...that's about it.
Notwithstanding that, the integrity of the seal is a point of vulnerability, right off the factory floor. Not for all units produced, just the rare one where a flaw finds it's way into the process.
One of the points of the M-942 greased package bearing design, as I recall, was that it would NOT be fitted with a zerk or any other sort of field-supplied lubricant.
Too many contaminants that can get in; too many ways for the little ball head to break off and leave a channel into the bearing.
Better seal design is where to put your effort.
UlrichYes, tagging of rail equipment really only became prolific after 2000. Before the turn of the century there was very little of it... even as late as 1999. The railroads are in a tough spot.. clearly tresspassing on railroad property is a common everyday occurrence everywhere. Yet, an injury (drunk lady gets hit by train while sitting on a rail) results in a huge $557 million dollar settlement against the railroad.
The railroads are in a tough spot.. clearly tresspassing on railroad property is a common everyday occurrence everywhere. Yet, an injury (drunk lady gets hit by train while sitting on a rail) results in a huge $557 million dollar settlement against the railroad.
Cars spend a significant amount of time OFF railroad property. On the property of the shippers and consignees - for day(s) at a time.
chutton01 Remember when auto chassis had zerks, Well, no, since I never saw that word till 5 minutes ago as of this writing. Grease fittings, OTOH, I have heard of and have used them (the fittings) in the past. Still have a grease gun somewhere in the garage, haven't used for decades.Anyway, i've made no secret I live in the NY area, and often did take NYC Transit in the 1980s (and 90s). It is true that graffitti was fairly common ata the beginning of that period, but a concerted effort of policing the yards/stations along with taking trains out to remove the graffitti before returning them to service (takes away the 'glory' of your artwork boldly travelling the lines) made a significant effect on said graffitti (and scratchfitti of the windows) albiet varying a bit depending on how seriously such efforts were maintained (it fluctuated depending on adminstrations and finances). Returning to freight railroads, I mentioned in some previous thread I was revieing many photographs (a hundred+) of freight cars I took in the 1990s/very early 2000's in locations like Newark, Patterson, Irvington, Long Island City, and so on, and contrary to my memory those feight cars were fairly clear of graffitti - yes there was a handful of tags, but even large light grey covered hoppers, yellow UPFE reefers and high-side gondola which nowadays would scream out 'mural bait' were not tagged. DId the railroads as well as private car owners/leasers just give up? Is security just a nice-to-have (as exemplified by that Los Angeles IM corridor littered with the remements of looted containers on IM trains)? Yeah, 2 decades is a long time...but not that long in the big scheme of things.
Remember when auto chassis had zerks,
Well, no, since I never saw that word till 5 minutes ago as of this writing. Grease fittings, OTOH, I have heard of and have used them (the fittings) in the past. Still have a grease gun somewhere in the garage, haven't used for decades.Anyway, i've made no secret I live in the NY area, and often did take NYC Transit in the 1980s (and 90s). It is true that graffitti was fairly common ata the beginning of that period, but a concerted effort of policing the yards/stations along with taking trains out to remove the graffitti before returning them to service (takes away the 'glory' of your artwork boldly travelling the lines) made a significant effect on said graffitti (and scratchfitti of the windows) albiet varying a bit depending on how seriously such efforts were maintained (it fluctuated depending on adminstrations and finances). Returning to freight railroads, I mentioned in some previous thread I was revieing many photographs (a hundred+) of freight cars I took in the 1990s/very early 2000's in locations like Newark, Patterson, Irvington, Long Island City, and so on, and contrary to my memory those feight cars were fairly clear of graffitti - yes there was a handful of tags, but even large light grey covered hoppers, yellow UPFE reefers and high-side gondola which nowadays would scream out 'mural bait' were not tagged. DId the railroads as well as private car owners/leasers just give up? Is security just a nice-to-have (as exemplified by that Los Angeles IM corridor littered with the remements of looted containers on IM trains)? Yeah, 2 decades is a long time...but not that long in the big scheme of things.
Yes, tagging of rail equipment really only became prolific after 2000. Before the turn of the century there was very little of it... even as late as 1999.
zugmann SD70Dude How do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them? They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged..... every car will have a caboose coupled to it.
SD70Dude How do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them? They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged.....
every car will have a caboose coupled to it.
Better put a marksman in each one along with the conductor.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudeHow do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them? They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged.....
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
How do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them? They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged.....
Fred M Cain n012944 Fred M Cain Is there a connection here? No. Sorry, but your "no" is not convincing.
n012944 Fred M Cain Is there a connection here? No.
Is there a connection here? No.
Fred M Cain Someone needs to look into this.
No, they don't.
Fred M Cain At the very least, re-read my last paragraph. It makes the entire industry look bad and it's probably disquieting to the general public at large. Surely no way to build confidence especially after some high-profile derailments. Having equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence.
At the very least, re-read my last paragraph. It makes the entire industry look bad and it's probably disquieting to the general public at large. Surely no way to build confidence especially after some high-profile derailments.
I doubt the railroads care. Paint added to the outside of the car has nothing to do with inspections on the important parts of the car.
An "expensive model collector"
Flintlock76Hmm, maybe the railroads need designated marksmen armed with .22's to shoot the cans out of the hands of the taggers? And causing the paint to splatter all over them? I know, I know, a stupid unworkable solution. But isn't it fun to think about?
Paintballs and video - and a reception party to greet them as they leave the property...
Where's that "smite" cartoon when you need it?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACD Rattle cans in the hands of those that know how to use them can cover a lot of area, quickly.
Hmm, maybe the railroads need designated marksmen armed with .22's to shoot the cans out of the hands of the taggers? And causing the paint to splatter all over them?
I know, I know, a stupid unworkable solution. But isn't it fun to think about?
Ulrich Fred M Cain n012944 Fred M Cain Is there a connection here? No. Sorry, but your "no" is not convincing. Someone needs to look into this. At the very least, re-read my last paragraph. It makes the entire industry look bad and it's probably disquieting to the general public at large. Surely no way to build confidence especially after some high-profile derailments. Having equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence. I agree, but there's not much the railroads can do about it.. It's worse in Europe where even the passenger trains are tagged. In Naples Italy last summer my wife and I got on a train with "FRail written" (use your imagination) clear across the front of the engine (in English too!). There's just no way the railroads can keep the graffiti off. But I don't think the tagging indicates that the equipment doesn't get inspected.
Fred M Cain n012944 Fred M Cain Is there a connection here? No. Sorry, but your "no" is not convincing. Someone needs to look into this. At the very least, re-read my last paragraph. It makes the entire industry look bad and it's probably disquieting to the general public at large. Surely no way to build confidence especially after some high-profile derailments. Having equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence.
I agree, but there's not much the railroads can do about it.. It's worse in Europe where even the passenger trains are tagged. In Naples Italy last summer my wife and I got on a train with "FRail written" (use your imagination) clear across the front of the engine (in English too!).
There's just no way the railroads can keep the graffiti off. But I don't think the tagging indicates that the equipment doesn't get inspected.
Several years ago I saw a YouTube video of a European passenger train being 'tagged' at a outlying station passenger stop in less than three minutes with crew and passengers on board. The 'taggers' were a group of 10 to 12 individuals working in concert with each other and knew what they were trying to accomplish. Rattle cans in the hands of those that know how to use them can cover a lot of area, quickly.
I agree, but there's not much the railroads can do about it.. It's worse in Europe where even the passenger trains are tagged. In Naples Italy last summer my wife and I got on a train with "FRail written" (use your imagination) clear across the front of the engine (in English too!). Somehow that didn't equate to "unsafe" in my mind.. perhaps it would have 20 or 30 years ago.
There's just no way the railroads can keep the graffiti off. But I don't think the tagging indicates that the equipment doesn't get inspected. I've also never felt particularly unsafe on the NYC subway system although it looks like an awful mess (although better than it was years ago).
Fred M CainHaving equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence.
Fred's got a bit of a point, not a perfect point but one worth thinking about. Public perception is a powerful thing. Those of us with a bit of knowledge about railroads know perfectly well that graffitti is sometimes unavoidable, but to Joe or Joan Average sitting at a grade crossing waiting impatiently for that THING that looks like a slum on wheels to get out of the way? It's understandable for them to wonder "What else is that railroad doing wrong?" Especially in the light of current events. And if that train's a monster train that keeps them waiting longer than they think they should? Well then...
Fred M Cain Are the brakes, cylinders and wheel bearings getting a thorough inspection?
Remember when auto chassis had zerks, and a periodic "chassis lube" was standard fare? I recall taking my car in for work about 30 years ago, insisting that they include a chassis lube as part of the work list, and the guy just laughed at me.
In view of the claims made by people here that the bearings in question are built to have a longer service life than the axels they are mounted to, I'd anticipate that thourough, hands-on bearing inspection likely isn't real high on anyone's list. At least not until they report as hot to some detector.
My experience with permanently sealed bearings is that they are amazingly durable, unless there is a flaw built into the seal, permitting contamination to find it's way in. Visual inspection at the factory doesn't always catch that.
And considering the environment that rail car axels operate in, I'd guess that contamination is a risk.
Fred M Cain Is there a connection here?
n012944In the end, people don't like having to do more with less, and there was a lot of pushback from that.
Pesky things like engines, cars, maintenance, inspectors.
I'll give you that the original PSR ideals have gotten bastardazied, but I also didn't see too much vocal opposition from PSR proponents.
chutton01 So Balt, what you seem to be saying that under EHH PSR was neither Precise, nor Scheduled, nor really even Railroading, but rather "Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash". If so, from what I see, I would agree.
So Balt, what you seem to be saying that under EHH PSR was neither Precise, nor Scheduled, nor really even Railroading, but rather "Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash". If so, from what I see, I would agree.
As someone who lived and worked through EHH's PSR at CSX, I disagree. Had he lived to see it through, I think it would have been a decent operation. Despite Balts claims, it was a scheduled railroad. One of the first things EHH did was to get rid of the the stupid "28 hour day" stupidity schedule that CSX was using, and run manifests on true schedule. There was a real push to run trains and time, pushing late trains to get them to destination quickly. It was after his death, that we got PSR on a budget, and it showed in the quality of operation.
In the end, people don't like having to do more with less, and there was a lot of pushback from that.
tree68 BaltACD Ocean shipping has seen vessels move from the size of the Liberth ships that won WW II and formed the basis of the after war merchant shipping fleets of many seafaring countries. The Great Lakes have seen that as well. There are a number of "footers" (1,000 feet and longer) and they are mainly constrained by the Soo Locks, which can only handle slightly over that. I believe the longest ship on the lakes right now is 1,014 feet. Smaller ships are getting fewer and fewer. Salties are limited to the ~700 feet that can be handled by the St Lawrence Seaway locks and the Welland Canal.
BaltACD Ocean shipping has seen vessels move from the size of the Liberth ships that won WW II and formed the basis of the after war merchant shipping fleets of many seafaring countries.
The Great Lakes have seen that as well. There are a number of "footers" (1,000 feet and longer) and they are mainly constrained by the Soo Locks, which can only handle slightly over that. I believe the longest ship on the lakes right now is 1,014 feet.
Smaller ships are getting fewer and fewer.
Salties are limited to the ~700 feet that can be handled by the St Lawrence Seaway locks and the Welland Canal.
For NS, the bad news keeps on coming. This morning in Cleveland a dump truck collided with a locomotive on the Cleveland-Cliffs property and the NS conductor was killed.
https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/norfolk-southern-train-collides-with-dump-truck-kills-1
PennsyBoomer Perhaps the most recognized of the "short/fast" carriers was Rio Grande when 4000 tons made a train (on some routes) - but that was largely a function of geography and density. The natural low resistance of steel wheel on steel rail tends toward longer consists and with the advent of DPU locomotive consists greater train length has been made much more practicable. Every economy over the past, say, 40 years has significantly affected operating efficiency. Elimination of the caboose and crew consist reductions increased the amount of time necessary to inspect trains, fix mechanical problems and make set outs and pick ups. Yard capacity was affected by remote control crews slowing the processing of traffic, backing up onto the mainline, draining the crew base. The experiential base was basically disdained and discarded through buyouts so that now one wonders what is left. The days when just about any delay could be resolved within twenty minutes or so are long gone. Anyone remotely familiar with operations knew PSR was an oxymoron. There are just too many variables in a large-scale operation for any approximation of "precision" other than upon very broad precepts. PSR is just an innocuous sounding phrase for cashing-in of assets - be it employees, physical plant or ability to sustain events and what used to be called surge capacity. Some carriers have apparently reached the point of no return in this arena - as evidenced by UP's "We Can Embargo It" philosophy. The trend seems to be toward transportation entropy as dictated by the eternal buck. The only resistance to this trend, I guess, is regulation; and that is too often a function of reaction to disasters - of one kind or another.
Perhaps the most recognized of the "short/fast" carriers was Rio Grande when 4000 tons made a train (on some routes) - but that was largely a function of geography and density. The natural low resistance of steel wheel on steel rail tends toward longer consists and with the advent of DPU locomotive consists greater train length has been made much more practicable.
Every economy over the past, say, 40 years has significantly affected operating efficiency. Elimination of the caboose and crew consist reductions increased the amount of time necessary to inspect trains, fix mechanical problems and make set outs and pick ups. Yard capacity was affected by remote control crews slowing the processing of traffic, backing up onto the mainline, draining the crew base. The experiential base was basically disdained and discarded through buyouts so that now one wonders what is left. The days when just about any delay could be resolved within twenty minutes or so are long gone.
Anyone remotely familiar with operations knew PSR was an oxymoron. There are just too many variables in a large-scale operation for any approximation of "precision" other than upon very broad precepts. PSR is just an innocuous sounding phrase for cashing-in of assets - be it employees, physical plant or ability to sustain events and what used to be called surge capacity. Some carriers have apparently reached the point of no return in this arena - as evidenced by UP's "We Can Embargo It" philosophy. The trend seems to be toward transportation entropy as dictated by the eternal buck. The only resistance to this trend, I guess, is regulation; and that is too often a function of reaction to disasters - of one kind or another.
The Union Pacific of the 1970s was also known for running short fast trains with enormous power on the point. This seemed somewhat out of step with the times given the oil crisis of 1973 and the 55 mph speed limit imposed on interstates to conserve oil.
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