charlie hebdo Railroad mainlines would be the most logical and easiest to safely automate if it weren't for labor contracts.
Railroad mainlines would be the most logical and easiest to safely automate if it weren't for labor contracts.
Euclid charlie hebdo Railroad mainlines would be the most logical and easiest to safely automate if it weren't for labor contracts. It is true that railroads would be the easiest form or transportation to automate, but for the resistance of Labor. However, management views automation as a way to overcome Labor’s resistance to reducing crew size. That is why they like automation. Automation just sidesteps that issue by eliminating crews. Railroad management abhors some improvements such as ECP brakes, but they seem to be very fond of autonomous freight trains. Management loves autonomous freight trains as much as much as they love monster trains, and for the same reason. Automation will be easy to expedite because manufacturers and vendors of automation see a golden opportunity in marketing these sorts of revolutions to such a big customer as the U.S. railroad system, which is all standardized with the same universal needs. This fantastic marketing push will sweep the industry off its feet with this marketing revolution. It will be the biggest thing since dieselization. But it won’t all be easy. On one hand, railroads don’t suffer the problem of trains needing to sense and react to endless obstacles on their right of way in the same manner that cars and trucks have to on public roads do. However it will be very challenging for autonomous freight trains to navigate through all of operational contingencies just by following a program of operation the way Rio Tinto trains do with the consistency and predictability of their operations. So autonomous trains are likely to require a lot of changes to simplify their operation where it is most congested if they are going to follow a program of automatic operation. Otherwise, if they are just programed, the program will require frequent modification. This will tend to require human intervention, so it will be like the trains are not actually autonomous, but more like remote control.
Better start checking the quality of the hemp rope you all have been smoking.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
charlie hebdo Not sure about V-1s landing without damage.
Not sure about V-1s landing without damage.
That kind of sums up some of my misgivings of the pilotless cargo aircraft... The folks launching the V-1s didn't care if less than 100% made it to the target as long as a significant fraction did.
Aircraft, OTOH, operating in three degrees of freedom space (up/down, left/right, faster/slower) are much less likely to collide than ships operating two degrees of freedom space (port/starboard, faster/slower), an even less likely than cars/trucks with two degrees of freedom (left/right, faster/slower), where one of those degrees (left/right by width of road/lane) is tightly constrained. Trains have one degree of freedom and this require much stricter rules of operation especially considering that stopping distances can be further than line of sight. The one degree of freedom for trains makes automatic train control a much easier proposition where the ROW can be protected.
One objection for pilotless aircraft and it's much stronger for autonomous road vehicles is impairment to the sensors. The 77GHz radars used on vehicles are rendered useless when covered with slush or mud and LIDARs are even more sensitive to slush/dirt. Yet another is that a lot more work needs to be done on the pattern recocognotion routines. An example of the latter is that a consientious human driver will recoginize that a bunch of very young children requires a lot more attention than a similar sized bunch of bushes.
OM: I was living in San Diego when that happened and my oldest sister was 6 blocks away from where the planes hit the ground. Number one problem was that there were two aircraft in roughly the same airspace that were being directed by two diferent facilities, ATC and the Lindergh Field tower. Also note that in-flight collisions are more likely around airports.
Looks like pilotless aircraft should have some sort of balloon detection, thouh a more serious issue for delivery drones is detecting wire - power lines, guy wires, antennas.
Speaking of ATC - the rules with respect to airways defined by LF/MF ranges or VORs seem to have been derived from RR dispatching practice.
If railroads were easy to automate trouble-free we'd have started with the Times Square Shuttle lo! these many years ago, and NAJPTC wouldn't have been such a colossal laugher.
One major issue is precisely what Erik mentioned: the 'one degree of lateral freedom' often leading to very close track-to-track centers and some uncertainty with fouling points of 'listing' or damaged equipment. As mudchicken and others will confirm, typical GPS location has difficulty distinguishing what track a train is on, which is a reason the QNS&L-style radio transponder separation has trouble on railroads with multiple tracks in service. It's much the same issue as using drones for navigation aids; it makes a good show when shiny and new, but at rainy zero-dark-thirty under heavy cloud, with a few years of typical railroad negligence-posing-as-maintenance on the clock, "things can start to happen" that the AI won't correctly anticipate, or deal with.
Hmmm, getting an idea...
The reason for using GPS is to be able to know within a few feet where he train is along the line, i.e. how far has the train traveled? This is important to know wehere the train is in respect to fouling points. Due to wheel slippage and wear, counting the number of turns of an axle cannot be relied on to give an exact number for distance traveled. One thought on improving distance measurements is using radar to measure speed and thus distance would drived from integrating the measured speed. To improve accuracy, one could place a series of radar reflectors where the relative spacing between reflectors would be a code for position, e.g. milepost and track number. These could be placed in areas where GPS reception is impossible.
I suspect the ultimate solution would be "all of the above."
GPS would provide the position of the front and rear of the train to a certain level of accuracy. Radar verifies the speed (and would be compared to the GPS), and trackside or center of track transponders would provide site specific information, verifying location and identifying the specific track, among other items.
Transponders already are used to track individual cars - look for the little grey device on the sides of the cars. It would not be out of the question to use the information from track transponders in combination with the GPS to confirm specifics and to provide information to on-board PTC systems.
Anyone who has an E-Z-Pay transponder (or other similar toll payment system) knows this can work, even at highway speeds.
Many reefers (and some other cars) are already being tracked via satellite. It may even be possible to parse some of the information provided by those cars into such a system.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Let's see how clear I can make this.
Longitudinal position on the track isn't a particular issue. GPS, even single-precision, will give you 'good enough' speed and location information for typical block separation; HA-NDGPS with beacons will give you sufficient information for effective CBTC if you have good communications between the trains and wayside equipment.
The issue is distinguishing trains on different track centers.
Whatever it is, it is going to cost BIG bucks, especially when you consider that something that will be this sensitive is going to have to hold up in a hostile environment.
I was suprised that PTC did not include some sort of overhead or between the rails beacon to identify track at CPs
Well one of those automonus trucks was taken offline by a bird. The bird dropped off a present that hit the camera covering it with poop and the truck literally shutdown in the middle of the interstate and even the guy monitoring it inside couldn't get it to move.
Shadow the Cats owner Well one of those automonus trucks was taken offline by a bird.
Well one of those automonus trucks was taken offline by a bird.
Why am I not surprised? Looks like the designer didn't think of various things that go splat on windshields. Which also implies that the people trying to design an autonomous truck need a lot more real world experience. Pretty much the same thing goes for autonomous trains.
My wife's car has a very nice camera for the "rearview mirroe" and backing up assistance. Even though it's facing backwards, it still require cleaning on a regular basis.
Erik_Mag Shadow the Cats owner Well one of those automonus trucks was taken offline by a bird. Why am I not surprised? Looks like the designer didn't think of various things that go splat on windshields. Which also implies that the people trying to design an autonomous truck need a lot more real world experience. Pretty much the same thing goes for autonomous trains. My wife's car has a very nice camera for the "rearview mirroe" and backing up assistance. Even though it's facing backwards, it still require cleaning on a regular basis.
Like anything else - the Devil is in the details and there are more details than can be thought of - until the detail hits.
Erik_MagMy wife's car has a very nice camera for the "rearview mirroe" and backing up assistance. Even though it's facing backwards, it still require cleaning on a regular basis.
No damage to my truck, and minimal damage to her bumper.
I would imagine that the bird poop incident is making some designers look at the design to see if it can somehow be improved.
But remember the Pinto...
The recent and serious NS derailment once again exposed the fallacy of superiority of human crews. Also shows rails to be dangerous neighbors to have.
Pipeline opponents continue to require us to move huge amounts of oil by rail.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
charlie hebdo The recent and serious NS derailment once again exposed the fallacy of superiority of human crews. Also shows rails to be dangerous neighbors to have.
Movement ultimately has accidents. No matter, who, where, what or when.
CSSHEGEWISCH charlie hebdo The recent and serious NS derailment once again exposed the fallacy of superiority of human crews. Also shows rails to be dangerous neighbors to have.
Those responses to this are much akin to saying "s***" happens" aka let's not do anything because we have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, i.e. saving jobs versus saving lives. Same old stuff concerning crossings, equipment, accounting etc. Reminiscent of the worse tragedies in Decatur, eastern Canada, etc
A full investment in automation should include an electric trainline with speed and temperature sensors on each axle, electric brakes. Make the car individually addressable so the computer can lock out on any high temp or brake issue.
Another benefit is they can put some LED lights on the side to help with people driving into the train at a dark crossing.
charlie hebdoThose responses to this are much akin to saying "s***" happens" aka let's not do anything because we have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, i.e. saving jobs versus saving lives.
Methinks it's more like discounting any claims that autonomous operation will be safer. This incident likely would have occurred if there was a five person crew.
Absent more defect detectors (one halfway between the others might have caught the problem), this was a failure that may not have been caught by better maintenance. Many defects remain hidden, until they aren't.
tree68 charlie hebdo Those responses to this are much akin to saying "s***" happens" aka let's not do anything because we have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, i.e. saving jobs versus saving lives. Methinks it's more like discounting any claims that autonomous operation will be safer. This incident likely would have occurred if there was a five person crew. Absent more defect detectors (one halfway between the others might have caught the problem), this was a failure that may not have been caught by better maintenance. Many defects remain hidden, until they aren't.
charlie hebdo Those responses to this are much akin to saying "s***" happens" aka let's not do anything because we have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, i.e. saving jobs versus saving lives.
Discounting without any empirical evidence while this accident is vivid evidence of serious malfeasance in the whole system. The move to larger, much heavier railcars and monster trains generated more profits at the expense of more equipment and track failures.
BaltACD Movement ultimately has accidents. No matter, who, where, what or when. Thats why many older folks wear DEPENDS.
Thats why many older folks wear DEPENDS.
rdamonA full investment in automation should include an electric trainline with speed and temperature sensors on each axle, electric brakes. Make the car individually addressable so the computer can lock out on any high temp or brake issue. Another benefit is they can put some LED lights on the side to help with people driving into the train at a dark crossing.
'cause that stuff is going to last more than 3 hours once it gets to an industry or shortline.
I don't think most people have ever seen how many industries handle their cars. Hell hath no fury as a trackmobile, forklift, or front end loader..
To run anything udner any guise of automation, you are going to have to spend big money on maintaining stuff. Not exactly the expert field of many companies anymore. RR or not.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Isn't it really a case of trying to be too efficient? Squeezing the last trace of what's possible out of people and equipment. Why can't the goal be to be unquestionably reliable?
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