Alabama had the state headquarters requirement for awhile. That ended up having the Atlanta & West PointRR and Western RR of Alabama parts the West Point route of the Georgia group. Then you had SOU RRs Alabama Great Southern from Chattanooga - Biringham - to Mississippi border. Then SOU had New Orleans & NE for SOU in Mississippi, Then SOU had in Lousianna the New Orleans and lower coast. No sure about MS and LA.
How the L&N was set up in Alabama is unknown. ACL had the ABC ( Atlanta - Birmingham & Coast ) in Alabama and some of it in Georgia.
You'd know far more about it than I would.
The story as I heard it second-hand (while in business school) was that while the merger was pending, many of the 'real' assets of both ATSF and SP were transferred away from the 'railroads' and this left them both financially weakened as companies when the merger was not approved.
I'd be highly interested to know exactly what was done if that is hooey.
If you have any specifics about 'looted out' I would appreciate that info.
I was active with Santa Fe as Manager Real Estate and Contracts between 1983 and 9-15-1990 when I took a buyout.
wjstixTechnically / legally speaking, all railroads operating in the U.S. are U.S. railroads.
As it was, it's amazing what got looted out of those railroads before the roof caved in. Might have been interested to see how the late '80s and '90s might have played out had those two roads not been 'done'.
Leo_AmesAny truth to a rail line serving a US military base, having to be US owned?
Technically / legally speaking, all railroads operating in the U.S. are U.S. railroads. Railroads that are generally thought of as being long gone (like the Soo Line) often still exist at least on paper, as the U.S. subsidiary of a Canadian corporation.
BaltACD BEAUSABRE An "Articulated Malcontent"? I've never heard of that wheel arrangement. Is it like an Articulated Mastodon? UP had 25 of those In any event it is better than 'Articulated Incontent'.
BEAUSABRE An "Articulated Malcontent"? I've never heard of that wheel arrangement. Is it like an Articulated Mastodon? UP had 25 of those
In any event it is better than 'Articulated Incontent'.
Which in turn is far better than "Articulated Incontinent"..........
Seriously though, you've added a "d". I got called that in an argument with a retired railroad manager in the comments on one of Fred Frailey's blogs a few years ago, and I liked the sound of it so I started using it.
The argument had something to do with whether Hunter Harrison and PSR were good or bad.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
BEAUSABREAn "Articulated Malcontent"? I've never heard of that wheel arrangement. Is it like an Articulated Mastodon? UP had 25 of those
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
An "Articulated Malcontent"? I've never heard of that wheel arrangement. Is it like an Articulated Mastodon? UP had 25 of those
wjstix Short answer to original question is 'yes'. A railroad operating in the US - at least before some of the changes (NAFTA etc.) in the 1990s - had to be majority owned by US citizens, and chartered as a US railroad. For example, the short section of the CN mainline running south of Lake of the Woods in Minnesota was incorporated as a separate US railroad (Minnesota & Manitoba...or was it the Manitoba & Minnesota?). Now of course CN or CP could own 49.99% of a US railroad's stock and have several percent of stock owned by the US railroad's board of directors and other executives who basically voted the way their Canadian bosses wanted them to vote...but it still had to technically be majority American ownership. There also were requirements that say a CN boxcar coming into America, or a CN engine pulling a through train on the DW&P to Duluth, could only stay in the US for so many hours (I think 24 or 36) before being sent back to Canada.
Short answer to original question is 'yes'. A railroad operating in the US - at least before some of the changes (NAFTA etc.) in the 1990s - had to be majority owned by US citizens, and chartered as a US railroad. For example, the short section of the CN mainline running south of Lake of the Woods in Minnesota was incorporated as a separate US railroad (Minnesota & Manitoba...or was it the Manitoba & Minnesota?).
Now of course CN or CP could own 49.99% of a US railroad's stock and have several percent of stock owned by the US railroad's board of directors and other executives who basically voted the way their Canadian bosses wanted them to vote...but it still had to technically be majority American ownership.
There also were requirements that say a CN boxcar coming into America, or a CN engine pulling a through train on the DW&P to Duluth, could only stay in the US for so many hours (I think 24 or 36) before being sent back to Canada.
Canadian Pacific owned 56% of Soo Line before axquiring full ownership about 1990.
Canadian Pacific merger family tree | Trains Magazine
Jeff
wjstix There also were requirements that say a CN boxcar coming into America, or a CN engine pulling a through train on the DW&P to Duluth, could only stay in the US for so many hours (I think 24 or 36) before being sent back to Canada.
Canadian roads owned a lot of equipment that was designated as international service, identified by reporting marks like CNIS, CPAA, or BCIT. CN also identified international service cabooses by painting the cupolas yellow.
I'm not sure what had to be done to designate equipment for international service, but it probably involved tax or duty payments of some sort.
EDIT: Here's another discussion on this topic:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/p/240031/2677998.aspx
Any truth to a rail line serving a US military base, having to be US owned?
I always assumed it was a myth, but it was a regular claim some years ago at the Railroad.net forums when mergers or line acquisitions into the US by the two big Canadian roads were discussed (even though nobody could ever cite a statute to back it up).
Certainly have been some examples past and present that would seem to suggest that there's no such mandate. But since these Canadian operations into the US tend to be officially operated by paper subsidiaries registered in the US, I've never been certain if my hunch is correct that there's nothing to that claim.
Some such examples include the D&H that continued to serve Plattsburgh Air Force Base for several years after the CPR purchase before the base closure program shut it down. Or the still in the courts purchase by CNR of the CSX Massena line serving Fort Drum, which if it proceeds will on paper be owned and operated by their Bessemer & Lake Erie subsidiary (It's not looking good, but they're still hoping to get the STB mandate to allow potential interchange in the future with the Susie Q and Finger Lakes Railway lifted).
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The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
SD70Dude All of CN's American operations are still legally owned by the Grand Trunk Corporation, which of course is a wholly owned subsidiary of CN......
All of CN's American operations are still legally owned by the Grand Trunk Corporation, which of course is a wholly owned subsidiary of CN......
Grand Trunk Western was still operating passengers trains when Amtrak was formed and acquired Amtrak Stocks as part of their buy-in.
Grand Trunk being a subsidiary of CN which in turn was a Canadian Crown Corporation until privatized in 1995......I guess you can say the Canadian Government was one of the an original owners of Amtrak Stock.
Interesting read.....
https://tonyseed.wordpress.com/2017/12/18/who-owns-amtrak/
BEAUSABRE Does Mopac's International-Great Northern count? International–Great Northern Railroad - Wikipedia Gulf Coast Lines - Wikipedia
Does Mopac's International-Great Northern count?
International–Great Northern Railroad - Wikipedia
Gulf Coast Lines - Wikipedia
And a good few other MoPac subsidiaries.
MidlandMike CMStPnP CB&Q = Colorado and Southern, The Texas subsidiary was the Fort Worth and Denver. There was also the Burlington-Rock Island Railroad.
CMStPnP CB&Q = Colorado and Southern,
The Texas subsidiary was the Fort Worth and Denver. There was also the Burlington-Rock Island Railroad.
The Burlington - Rock Island Railroad was the entity used for the joint line from Dallas/Ft.Worth area to Houston/Galveston, plus one or two branch lines of the route. Over time B-RI was phased out and it became the Joint Texas Division.
The Rock Island's Texas lines were at one time under the Chicago Rock Island & Gulf Railway name.
BNSF lists the Rio Grande, El Paso and Santa Fe Railroad Company (TX) as a wholly owned subsidiary.
CMStPnPCB&Q = Colorado and Southern,
A foreign subsidiary for cross border operations is S.O.P. - Payroll, liability, etc, etc. That whole international law thang.
1934 Texas et al v. United States et al put an end to state attempts to regulate the rail merger market, and requirements for in-state railroad facilities.
SD70Dude All of CN's American operations are still legally owned by the Grand Trunk Corporation, which of course is a wholly owned subsidiary of CN. No separate paint schemes anymore, though the GTW and DWC reporting marks remain in use on a lot of freight equipment, along with those of all the other American railroads CN has acquired over the last 25 years. I believe CP has a similar arrangement using Soo Line.
All of CN's American operations are still legally owned by the Grand Trunk Corporation, which of course is a wholly owned subsidiary of CN. No separate paint schemes anymore, though the GTW and DWC reporting marks remain in use on a lot of freight equipment, along with those of all the other American railroads CN has acquired over the last 25 years.
I believe CP has a similar arrangement using Soo Line.
Soo Line and Dakota Minnesota and Eastern. A couple of years ago (I mentioned it once in another thread) Soo Line and DM&E granted each other trackage rights between various terminals near where they "interchange." Where the ownership on paper changes between the two.
Both are operated under the CPRS banner. Customers see a seemless railroad, but the old entities still exist on paper for various reasons.
CN would have purchased the CSX St Lawrence Sub as the Bessemer & Lake Erie, which CN owns.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I prepared 2019 tax returns for several railroaders working for CN or CP. Their W2's were issued with the employer being Wisconsin Central or Illinois Central, Soo Line. Not CN or CP.
rdamonWasn't the Cotten Belt (SSW) also a Texas company part of the SP?
Texas and New Orleans was another one besides the Cotton Belt.
CB&Q = Colorado and Southern,
MoPac = Texas and Pacific,
AT&SF = Panhandle and Santa Fe, ......Gulf, Colorado and Santa Fe.
The Texas law was changed in 1965.
ronrunner Hence Grand Trunk..DWP..D&H had to have US Charters and management on paper..as I also recall GT had a division in Maine
Hence Grand Trunk..DWP..D&H had to have US Charters and management on paper..as I also recall GT had a division in Maine
It is the state requiring that NOT the United States. As mentioned earlier Texas used to require it.
Wasn't the Cotten Belt (SSW) also a Texas company part of the SP?
BNSF seemed to solve the problem by moving their HQ.
OWTXSEC. 3. Every railroad or other corporation, organized or doing business in this State under the laws or authority thereof, shall have and maintain a public office or place in this State for the transaction of business... SEC. 6. No railroad company organized under the laws of this State shall consolidate by private or judicial sale or otherwise with any railroad company organized under the laws of any other State or of the United States.
Or was that theoretically possible, but the necessary approval would never be forthcoming?
T&NO merged into SP around 1960 -- how long before that did the constitution change?
Article X of the 1876 Texas constitution was railroad specific:
SEC. 3. Every railroad or other corporation, organized or doing business in this State under the laws or authority thereof, shall have and maintain a public office or place in this State for the transaction of business...
SEC. 6. No railroad company organized under the laws of this State shall consolidate by private or judicial sale or otherwise with any railroad company organized under the laws of any other State or of the United States.
The ICC and the US Supreme gutted a good portion of it, and the state repealed everything but Sec 2 (common carriers) in 1969.
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