As we know, most freight cars could go anywhere in North America via interchange. However, the big Canadian roads had some car series that, due to customs regulations, were restricted either to international service or to service on one side of the Canada-US border. Generally, these were cars that were either built in Canada and restricted to domestic service in the US, or built in the US and not permitted to be used for domestic Canadian service. These cars were often assigned special reporting marks, e.g., "CPAA", or "BCIT".
My question--how strictly were these regulations observed? Would a car built and assigned to domestic service in the US ever find its way into Canada, and would a car restricted to international service ever be used to handle a domestic Canadian shipment?
Many thanks, as always, in advance.
A quick search found photos of cars with BCOL and BCIT reporting marks in the US as well as Canada.
One reporting mark list I found says "BCIT BC Rail (International Service)"
There are also photos of cars with CPAA reporting marks in both countries.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
A regulation that only allow a car to be used in one country would probably be more of a headache and reduce the shipments that it could be used for. The only reason I could see a car being legally restricted to one country is that it doesn't meet the safety standards of the other country.
I've worked for real railroads for over 30 years and haven't heard of any cars restricted in international interchange.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Thanks dehusman. I've seen this information in ORER and other sources. Typically, it applies to particular number series and particular reporting marks. There may not be any indication of this restriction on the car itself, and is more likely an accounting matter than an operational concern. Perhaps with free trade between the US and Canada this is not as common now as it might have been back in my modelling era--late 1970s.
As I suggested in my original post, my assumption is that it was intended in part to protect the domestic freight-car building industry in each country, for example to encourage the American subsidiaries of the Canadian roads to buy American, while permitting Canadian roads to buy American-built cars, but only for international service. That way, the car builders in both nations had some protection from foreign competition.
Agents and accountants would have to know which cars were available for which service, but operating crews would not have to know and probably wouldn't care.
So I guess this is really a question for the green eye-shade types out there who may know how strictly these customs regulations were enforced.
Sorry for the double post. Here is a list of the reporting marks in question:
CPI: CP, Canadian-built cars restricted to international service and not to be used in domestic service in either country;
CPAA: CP, US-built cars restricted to international service;
BCIT: BC Rail, mostly US-built and owned and restricted to international service;
DWC: DW&P (CN), Canadian-built, to be used in US domestic service only.
Dayliner So I guess this is really a question for the green eye-shade types out there who may know how strictly these customs regulations were enforced.
I'd imagine they weren't the ones too worried with it. They're worried about security regulations more than a taxation issue. Someone in a low rise office building in Ottawa probably worried about it.
NittanyLion Dayliner So I guess this is really a question for the green eye-shade types out there who may know how strictly these customs regulations were enforced. I'd imagine they weren't the ones too worried with it. They're worried about security regulations more than a taxation issue. Someone in a low rise office building in Ottawa probably worried about it.
For some reason when I read it, I thought "sunglasses" and went to the actual guys in tactical gear with dogs at the border.
I did find a little bit of discussion at the following link: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,630595
The restrictions were entirely because of financial considerations. By having the ownership of the freight car residing in a US-based pool certain Canadian taxes could be avoided. I have now idea as to how the deal would be structured, and the later Free Trade Agreement may have rendered the issue moot.
In much the same manner, foreign owned cars from the UP or NYC could not be used in Canadian domestic service unless import duties were paid on the car. But they could be reloaded to go back home to the USA.
Was the situation at the time similar in the US, that Canadian owned cars could not be used for a domestic haul? I have no idea what the status of "Canadian" international cars might be in this regard. They were not fully Canadian, but were they fully American?
While they were supposed to be used exclusively in international service, I would be very surprised if a domestic loading never occurred. People are human, and mistakes are made. Presumably that would make the railroad liable for Canadian import tariffs on the car if the infraction was noticed. More than likely however it would never come to official notice.
Thanks maxman--the Trainorders discussion is on the right track. I believe these reporting marks for international service are all about car-building, not operations. The relevant regulations have to do with customs, not taxation, which is what leads me to believe that this is about protecting freight car builders from foreign competition.
Most of the time, these reporting marks identified cars restricted to international service, which makes sense. What is confusing me is the notation in my April 1982 ORER concerning all cars marked "DWC": "Canadian Built, May Be Used Only in United States in Accordance with United States Customs Regulations." Restricting a car to service on one or the other side of the border makes no sense to me, hence my original question, how strictly was this regulation observed?
Dayliner: exactly. This is **all** about customs/import regulations and where the cars were built/purchased and assigned. An American road's car can cross into Canada just fine, and vice versa, the problem would be if that Canadian car now starts carrying loads back and forth between two points in the USA. If that car is going to end up staying in the states, it needs to be exported and duties paid. This can be avoided if the car goes back to Canada within a certain amount of time (*please note I am not a customs agent or broker). Otherwise there'd be some violation of import regulations and tariffs.
Note for example that the ORER listings for Canadian Pacific normally indicated on cars with CPAA marks these are American built cars that can be used in the same manner as any US domestic car, and some Canadian fans will also recall the American-built/assigned CP "International of Maine" division assigned cars, which were a pre-cursor to using the CPAA marks to identify cars under this arrangement. In this case, these cars are American; they can be used between points in the USA, or cross-border, but to use them domestically in Canada causes customs issues because they haven't actually been imported. (Note that a significant amount of cars had their marks changed from CPAA to CP or vice versa over the years, so certain groups probably were imported/exported at various points and re-classed. There's also one specific case of a series of Canadian-built cars with CPAA marks, but they were acquired second-hand from an American road, so already exported to the US. Rather than reimport them, the American marks were used.)
I'm quite sure that the directives were routinely violated (specific clear example: in the 1970s-1980s CP was running a certain unit train of pulp logs in northern Ontario. Although the origin and destination where both in Ontario, the train ran with a sold set of 66' bulkhead flatcars with side stakes and CPI reporting marks, which should have been designated as International service. Although this was probably less problematic than if the cars had been CPAA (American-built and assigned, not imported into Canada) cars.) and that railroad clerks and agents didn't pay much attention to this, but by assigning them this way, it at least should have had the result of keeping the cars crossing the border, so it didn't end up on the "wrong" side too long and avoid customs duties. I think that changes with NAFTA may have also turned everything on its ear and relaxed things.
All due respect to Dave H, who I would take his answers as gold for pretty much all railroad subjects, this was indeed a thing. Although it was probably primarily a way of organizing their cars with special ownership/import arrangements together. You don't find this sort of arrangement on any US railroads, but they don't have the same situations here. The big Canadian roads had cross border operations or subsidiaries in the states, or had cars assigned to US based pools (and the latter were pretty much always exclusively American built and assigned cars with "International" marks).
However, note that when American roads ever had operations in Canada (e.g. C&O (still surviving as an isolated CSX operation), Wabash and NYC/Michigan Central's Canada Southern subsidiary in Ontario) they also bought built-in-Canada diesel locomotives from the Canadian subsidiary of EMD that were specifically assigned to the Canadian division(s), again because of customs and import.
The separate reporting marks aren't technically a requirement, but certainly helps to keep things easily identified, particularly in the days when full-scale and centralized computerization was still developing.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Dayliner Sorry for the double post. Here is a list of the reporting marks in question: CPI: CP, Canadian-built cars restricted to international service and not to be used in domestic service in either country; CPAA: CP, US-built cars restricted to international service; BCIT: BC Rail, mostly US-built and owned and restricted to international service; DWC: DW&P (CN), Canadian-built, to be used in US domestic service only.
To fully flesh out the list of all major marks and particularly International/US usage for Canadian roads with International Service marks:
Canadian Pacific:
CP (standard mark, Canadian domestic)
CPI (Canadian-built cars in International service)
CPAA (American-built/purchased cars in US domestic or international service)
Canadian National (& family):
CN (standard mark, Canadian domestic)
CNA (American-built cars, US domestic and International service)
CNIS (Canadian-built cars, International service)
Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific (CN):
DWP (standard mark, US domestic)
DWC* (Canadian built cars, International service - just newsprint boxcars back in the 1970s-80s)
Central Vermont (CN):
CV (standard mark, US domestic)
CVC (Canadian built cars International service - all newsprint/paper assigned boxcars)
Grand Trunk Western (CN)
GTW* (standard mark, US domestic)
* - more recently, CN has pretty much been using GTW and DWC for its primary reporting marks on new or newly acquired freight cars. Haven't seen an actual "CN" mark on a new series in quite a long time. Both Canadian and American built or acquired cars are showing up in either mark. Of course CN has an extensive system in the United States today reaching all the way to the Gulf of Mexico.
British Columbia Railway (formerly Pacific Great Eastern):
BCOL (standard mark, Canadian domestic - formerly PGE)
BCIT (International service, some US and Canadian built cars - formerly PGER)
Ontario Northland:
ONT (standard mark, Canadian domestic)
ONTA (American built cars, International service - couple of secondhand ex NRUC boxcar series)
Algoma Central:
AC (standard mark, Canadian domestic)
ACIS (Canadian built, International service - single series of woodchip cars)
As I recall, there were restrictions on international service cars on both sides of the border. For example, a reduced sales tax was paid on a car built in Canada for international service subject to the restriction that it could not be used for shipments within Canada. The same car could not be used for shipments within the US because it was built in Canada and had not had duties or taxes paid on it in the US.
Very recently I saw an instruction to shippers from CN advising that if certain international service center beam flats were loaded for a shipment within Canada, the shipper would pay a fine (penalty) for inappropriate use of the car. Unfortunately, I can't recall the reporting marks or number series with certainty but I believe they were DWC cars.
With the NAFTA agreement and changes in taxation rules I don't think the advantage to international service cars is as strong as it once was, but they still seem to be around.
Mike
Chris, all--thanks much for your input and info. Chris, you are "the man" when it it comes to CN freight cars, I'm learning.
Mike, thank you for the update that tells this is still happebning to a limited extent, at least.
The upshot of all this is that it should be OK for me to run my new DWC lumber boxcar on my 1979-era western Canada layout, providing the lading is billed to a customer in the US!.
But I'm still puzled by the notation in my 1982 ORER that seems to limite these cars to US domestic service only.