For the 1987 wheat harvest, Santa Fe was caught short of grain cars to move the crop (when country grain still moved by rail). About 400 cars (and some from the CSX family) were short termed leased. The standard ICG/IC orange cars and some gray ones began to be used as an actual SF car. The cars stayed around until the fall until being released. In 1989 again SF was caught short and returned back to ICG to borrow cars for harvest. This time, the cars stayed around only about 60 days and by Labor day were all gone. These two summers were memorable times in everyday seeing the foreign equipment. Only time I ever got to photographed ICG/IC grain hops and in KS of all places
jeffhergert Out here in Iowa, many feel IC bought back the CC&P because of the success CC was having in regaining business. Once back in the fold the class one mentality returns and customers leave the rails. I once talked to a guy who did some consulting work for a few businesses that were customers of the CC. It was around the time IC bought them back. He said CC was willing to do business with his clients, all of whom were small volume companies. CC provided them with good service even though they were small. Once IC had the Iowa lines back, those small customers were again pushed out of the way, in favor of the large volume customers. Jeff
Out here in Iowa, many feel IC bought back the CC&P because of the success CC was having in regaining business. Once back in the fold the class one mentality returns and customers leave the rails.
I once talked to a guy who did some consulting work for a few businesses that were customers of the CC. It was around the time IC bought them back. He said CC was willing to do business with his clients, all of whom were small volume companies. CC provided them with good service even though they were small. Once IC had the Iowa lines back, those small customers were again pushed out of the way, in favor of the large volume customers.
Jeff
Those so-called strategies for marketing sure weren't made by operating crews or dispatchers. Retrenchment to serve only the easy, low-hanging fruit is a decision made by middle management up to the top. "Penny wise, pound foolish."
CN at East Dubuque by Brian Hanel, on Flickr
My grandson and I took a railfan trip to that area back in May, and got lucky...
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
I tried to post yesterday and got distracted, by the time I returned to computer, my post had vaporized...hope this is not a duplicate.
A few years ago I was driving south on I57 at Rantoul and the branch line to the west had a train approaching. I pulled off and watched it...big grain train. The elevator is located about 8 miles west at Dewey. Interestingly the current Illinois IDOT Highway Map does not show the line. Perhaps it has been abandoned. Google Maps satelite view shows the line.
Ken, I never could figure out the Iowa line repurchase. That is an interesting theory...but sure doesnt make much sense. I have had a very good customer in Dubuque and would make the trip (back in pre Covid days!) once or twice a year. Always enjoyed following IC west of Freeport, but there were seldom any trains. Nice ROW, no trains. I think CN runs one train each way on that line plus grain or ethanol trains.
There is an ethanol plant near Lena. It was always an interesting piece of railroad...there were wig wag crossing signal at Galena, the tunnel and crossing of Mississippi at East Dubuque, and a yard operation in Dubuque. I always wanted to catch an EB exiting the tunnel...never did.
BNSF provided good action. Also, wanted to hike to try to find the old Chicago Great Western tunnel. Not sure if there are roads to reach that area or not, or where the CN and BNSF hook up south of East Dubuque.
Perhaps IC bought the line really cheap, or perhaps there is enough grain and merchandise to make the line profitable. It is surprizing that CN kept it during the EHH days instead of spinning it off again. Must be some meat on the Iowa bone.
Ed
Overmod charlie hebdo it makes sense to look at educations of top executives of a given railroad to get a sense of their ability to handle change. The problem then becomes 'when is change necessary or desirable' vs. improving based on what is in experience. We have noted again and again that even as 'skilled' a practitioner as EHH has repeatedly missed common-sense things from experience that make a mockery of practical implementation of bright 'ideas4Brad' bold new theories. Something I noted with some interest was when I went down to Louisiana to 'reform' the B&S construction methods. I was all abubble with bright ideas to do things better... and then started looking through the company records. Almost everything I was working toward implementing had been imagined in some detail by the company's founder sometimes several decades earlier -- and was unworkable or unprofitable at that time, or with available technologies. I'd expect this to be true of many of the 'old heads' rising, at least partly through merit, to reach responsible positions: the key is to blend experience and modern management and technical methods ... and be prepared to assess the difference between unworkability and 'needing more time or resources to work'. An interesting point was made by Bill Sword when he was telling my father who the top candidates for Morgan Stanley positions in the '60s would be. He noted the absolute worst were Stanford MBAs ... who were absolutely certain they knew everything, and functionally knew virtually nothing applicable to the culture at the time. Of course this came up at about the same time with railroad 'management' premised on the idea that it was possible to teach 'business administration' that would always give best results implemented in any management situation. In some respects, that's true; in others, an appalling misconception. The key is to know the difference ... and midcourse-correct when needed, but also stay the course when needed. And hey, what's wrong with Columbia?
charlie hebdo it makes sense to look at educations of top executives of a given railroad to get a sense of their ability to handle change.
The problem then becomes 'when is change necessary or desirable' vs. improving based on what is in experience.
We have noted again and again that even as 'skilled' a practitioner as EHH has repeatedly missed common-sense things from experience that make a mockery of practical implementation of bright 'ideas4Brad' bold new theories.
Something I noted with some interest was when I went down to Louisiana to 'reform' the B&S construction methods. I was all abubble with bright ideas to do things better... and then started looking through the company records. Almost everything I was working toward implementing had been imagined in some detail by the company's founder sometimes several decades earlier -- and was unworkable or unprofitable at that time, or with available technologies. I'd expect this to be true of many of the 'old heads' rising, at least partly through merit, to reach responsible positions: the key is to blend experience and modern management and technical methods ... and be prepared to assess the difference between unworkability and 'needing more time or resources to work'.
An interesting point was made by Bill Sword when he was telling my father who the top candidates for Morgan Stanley positions in the '60s would be. He noted the absolute worst were Stanford MBAs ... who were absolutely certain they knew everything, and functionally knew virtually nothing applicable to the culture at the time. Of course this came up at about the same time with railroad 'management' premised on the idea that it was possible to teach 'business administration' that would always give best results implemented in any management situation. In some respects, that's true; in others, an appalling misconception. The key is to know the difference ... and midcourse-correct when needed, but also stay the course when needed.
And hey, what's wrong with Columbia?
One thing I did learn over my career - There are very few Original ideas. Most ideas have been thought of before, however, they could not be successfully implemented for a wide variety of reasons from inadequate culture and inadequate materials through inadequate technologies.
The progression of technologies turn many items of Science Fiction into science fact and a marketable product.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
charlie hebdoit makes sense to look at educations of top executives of a given railroad to get a sense of their ability to handle change.
I've seen terminal leaders afriad to change something - becuase they're afraid of the backlash if it doesn't work. Instead they just sit in their office and blame the operating guys becuase the plan that doesn't work isn't working.
They're response is always "you just have to try harder!"
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Very interesting, Ken. Taking your observation as a working hypothesis, it makes sense to look at educations of top executives of a given railroad to get a sense of their ability to handle change.
Union Pacific is easy to check. Of the folks listed, CEO has an MBA from Northwestern's Kellogg, one of the top five nationally. Beyond him, eight others have various degrees, but only one of comparable excellence.
An MBA or other post-bachelors degree is no guarantee of excellence, but it is a decent predictor. My prediction would be that very few graduates of top MBA programs ( for instance, NU, Chicago, Wharton, Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Berkeley, etc.) would even consider a railroad position.
IC/ICG branch lines:
I was in Rantoul, IL twice for USAF training - 1968-9 and 1973-4. Didn't have a car the first time, so my trainwatching was limited, not to mention that I hadn't really gotten the bug yet.
The second time I had a car. I chased the branch east of Rantoul (which at one time ran to the Indiana line). Not much traffic. At that time it ran to Potomac.
I didn't chase things west of Rantoul, but that ran all the way to Lincoln and beyond. Now it ends at a mill/elevator a few miles west of Rantoul.
I'm guessing the smaller towns eventually lost their elevators, likely a major source of traffic on both lines.
Old topo maps don't show the E-W line crossing the N-S "Main Street of America" line - each was it's own branch.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
OK, this is what I experienced at the ICG.
There were some particularly good people there in higher level positions, but generally it was run by a bunch of good ole' boys who didn't have a whole lot of education. They had experience. That meant they resisted change because any change would devalue the main strength they had, which was their experience. A good leader will need both, education and experience. This allows him/her to accept changes, which are always needed, and evaluate proposals for change in terms the real world. If all you’ve got is experience change can be a personal threat to you. So, there was a whole lot of resistance to change.
The ICG was extremely late in trying to rationalize its network. One VP-Law was Percy Johnson. He was off the GM&O, from Mississippi, and he hated line abandonments. They created political problems and union issues. Often, these were major fights, and the Law Department would be right in the middle of every such fight. But the existing network had been created when farmers hauled their crops out of the fields by team and wagon. When they quit doing that the network lost viability and needed to be restructured. A line abandonment certainly did impact local businesses such as lumber yards, agricultural supply dealers, etc. They screamed bloody murder to their politicians and things went from there. But the fact remained that the railroad simply was not viable while operating all that obsolete network. The unions fought the loss of assigned jobs on the branch line locals. Having the VP-Law wishing to avoid the fights and opposing abandonments harmed the railroad.
People without the relevant education are often easily confused by economics and accounting. That was a major problem at the ICG. I once was going over a cost accounting worksheet and came across a line marked “Fixed Costs Per Gross Ton Mile.” It doesn’t get any dumber. But decisions were being made on such numbers.
Freight claims caused a lot of lost business. We’d damage the freight and then refuse to pay the claim for damage. The freight claims guys said they were just following the government (ICC) mandated procedures. When I once pointed out that intermodal business had been deregulated, I was told: “Not this part of it they didn’t.” I had to get a company lawyer to tell the freight claims people that they were no longer governed by what the ICC said regarding loss and damage claims on intermodal shipments. This unhinged them. That’s all they knew, and it was gone. They literally couldn’t deal with the change.
I could go on and on. I’ll sum it up by saying the ICG just didn’t do a good job of getting the right people in to the right positions of authority. That’ll wreck a company every time.
As to why E. Hunter Harrison reacquired the Iowa line, it’s a mystery. Doug Hagestad had made it to the VP level at the railroad. He also had a Master of Management degree from Northwestern University. I regarded him as a friend. He once said to me: “I’ll never understand why Hunter bought it back.” Doug and EHH have both since died, so it’s still a mystery to me.
One version that I ran across suggested that the Iowa line was repurchased in part to make IC somewhat less attractive to possible merger partners. It obviously didn't work that way.
Keep the ICG discussion going. I grew up on a branch line (Mattoon to Evansville) and the daily locals were the main event of my childhood, particularly when they switched limestone cars into the team tracks a block away from my home.
ICG was a north south Penn Central with some very good mainlines (actually only 1) with too many branch lines and secondaries.
Back in Dec, 2019 I had a hip replacement with way too much time on my hands. I found some old dispatch sheets from 1966 online - Jon Roma has a great site...and spent a few days reviewing the IC's operations including passenger trains. Pre- GMO merger, IC was running a pretty smooth operation, at least between Champaign and Centralia/Bluford.
Upper management did a great job of pruning the tree in the 1980s. I was fortunate enough to purchase IC stock in 1994 and it has exploded as CN ownership. One thing I never understood...why was the Iowa line repurchased? I dont get it now. I had a proxy statement book on it back in the 90s and unfortunately discarded it. Would love to review it now. I think they are only running one train each direction daily plus ethanol trains.
Any updates to that operation would be great.
Another interesting line was the East St. Louis to Duquoin line. I never realized the volumes that line carried until I spent a few hours at Barriger Library back in February (pre Covid) and took a look at a couple of books dealing with East St. Louis ops on ICG. Busy line, not only with coal but quite a bit of manifest business on the IC(G).
zugmann SD70Dude This sort of thing shouldn't happen, and yet it does, over and over and over again. Sometimes it comes down to ticking off one customer vs ticking off 3...
SD70Dude This sort of thing shouldn't happen, and yet it does, over and over and over again.
Sometimes it comes down to ticking off one customer vs ticking off 3...
If railroad decision making was easy - any idiot could do it. In reality it takes a special kind of idiot, some of them very highly paid.
A second truism is 'becareful what you ask for - YOU MAY GET IT!!' Malicious compliance is a female dog.
SD70DudeThis sort of thing shouldn't happen, and yet it does, over and over and over again.
SD70Dude charlie hebdo Firemen on freights started to be eliminated in 1972 and 1985 was the end. Brakemen numbers were reduced starting in the 1970s. These have not been relevant issues (fireman on freight, three brakemen) for many years. But they were during the era Ken was referring to.
charlie hebdo Firemen on freights started to be eliminated in 1972 and 1985 was the end. Brakemen numbers were reduced starting in the 1970s. These have not been relevant issues (fireman on freight, three brakemen) for many years.
Firemen on freights started to be eliminated in 1972 and 1985 was the end.
Brakemen numbers were reduced starting in the 1970s. These have not been relevant issues (fireman on freight, three brakemen) for many years.
But they were during the era Ken was referring to.
I'm not sure exactly when he worked for IC(G).
charlie hebdo But what about management, not just EHH? They seem to get off scot free on here for the most part, as though any time an error occurs, it's never anything to do with them.
But what about management, not just EHH? They seem to get off scot free on here for the most part, as though any time an error occurs, it's never anything to do with them.
You know me, I never let them off easy on here.
If management is stupid/incompetent enough to create an environment that allows and even encourages the BS described earlier, that's on them. After all, it's their train set, even if they don't know how to play with it.
In Ken's example of the bypassed lift, if there was indeed a good reason for it that reason was never communicated back to his department. And in that case the proper course of action would have been to come up with a recovery plan that saw the cars move on the next available train.
We still see this sort of thing happen today, and sometimes it is 100% due to lazyness and incompetence. But more often there is a reason, like three trains with work at a small yard all showing up at the same time, and there is only room for one of them. So someone's work gets bypassed and cars are delayed and misrouted as a result.
This sort of thing shouldn't happen, and yet it does, over and over and over again.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude charlie hebdo mvlandsw And sometimes it's lazy crews that don't want to do the work and managers that don't keep after them. I worked with crews that would kill time any way they could so that they wouldn't have time to pick up interchange cars near the end of their run. Some local crews would time their arrival at their off duty point so that they ran out of time on the main track and could not yard their train. One conductor said making overtime started at the beginning of the day. That's a pretty rough statement to make about operating folks. Front office people often don't appreciate the front line workers' jobs. Except he's right. Take it from me, an actual operating employee, though I don't have nearly as much seniority as him. The bad apples give the rest of us a bad name. I've seen co-workers do everything he listed and then some, and I may have even participated in it myself on occasion (it is amazing how a bullying supervisor can negatively affect a crew's work ethic). As long as I am treated respectfully by management I will work to the best of my abilities. charlie hebdo An earlier post by another member says it all about management attitudes: "union required blatant overmanning" "contract required BS" When referring to the era of three brakemen per train and firemen on diesels, he has a point.
charlie hebdo mvlandsw And sometimes it's lazy crews that don't want to do the work and managers that don't keep after them. I worked with crews that would kill time any way they could so that they wouldn't have time to pick up interchange cars near the end of their run. Some local crews would time their arrival at their off duty point so that they ran out of time on the main track and could not yard their train. One conductor said making overtime started at the beginning of the day. That's a pretty rough statement to make about operating folks. Front office people often don't appreciate the front line workers' jobs.
mvlandsw And sometimes it's lazy crews that don't want to do the work and managers that don't keep after them. I worked with crews that would kill time any way they could so that they wouldn't have time to pick up interchange cars near the end of their run. Some local crews would time their arrival at their off duty point so that they ran out of time on the main track and could not yard their train. One conductor said making overtime started at the beginning of the day.
And sometimes it's lazy crews that don't want to do the work and managers that don't keep after them. I worked with crews that would kill time any way they could so that they wouldn't have time to pick up interchange cars near the end of their run. Some local crews would time their arrival at their off duty point so that they ran out of time on the main track and could not yard their train.
One conductor said making overtime started at the beginning of the day.
That's a pretty rough statement to make about operating folks. Front office people often don't appreciate the front line workers' jobs.
Except he's right. Take it from me, an actual operating employee, though I don't have nearly as much seniority as him.
The bad apples give the rest of us a bad name.
I've seen co-workers do everything he listed and then some, and I may have even participated in it myself on occasion (it is amazing how a bullying supervisor can negatively affect a crew's work ethic).
As long as I am treated respectfully by management I will work to the best of my abilities.
charlie hebdo An earlier post by another member says it all about management attitudes: "union required blatant overmanning" "contract required BS"
An earlier post by another member says it all about management attitudes: "union required blatant overmanning" "contract required BS"
When referring to the era of three brakemen per train and firemen on diesels, he has a point.
Yes, of course. But what about management, not just EHH? They seem to get off scot free on here for the most part, as though any time an error occurs, it's never anything to do with them.
There are good operating guys and there are bad ones.
There are good managers and there are bad ones.
mvlandswAnd sometimes it's lazy crews that don't want to do the work and managers that don't keep after them. I worked with crews that would kill time any way they could so that they wouldn't have time to pick up interchange cars near the end of their run. Some local crews would time their arrival at their off duty point so that they ran out of time on the main track and could not yard their train. One conductor said making overtime started at the beginning of the day.
The actions I observed from SOU crews as they crossed over at Storrs Jct. in Cincinati as the made their way from their yard to interchange with the Big 4 yard West of Storrs Jct. You had to pick a known stationary object to be able to gauge their speed of movement - sometimes the stationary object moved faster.
Management has NEVER seen a non-management employee that they didn't consider a slacker.
For those interested, there is a first person blurb in Rush Loving Jr's book The Well Dressed Hobo concerning the final attrition of the ICG.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
The Boston & Maine crew That I worked with winer]-spring 1952-53 Was customer-service oriented.
charlie hebdo greyhounds charlie hebdo A friend of mine worked IC and ICG in the dispatching side from the late 60s through retirement. He describes that period as at best, very tumultuous, and he wasn't some malcontent. Although the EHH years were the worst, other execs were also very myoptic. Is your friend the guy who blew #51 by a SCHEDULED pick up in Kankakee and left 10 or so very hot R.R. Donnely TOFC loads sitting for two days? If so, I'd like to talk with him. I took the phone call from a very upset major customer first thing on a Monday morning. I had communicated that it was a "Hot Pick Up" and provided the flatcar numbers before I went home Friday. I came in on Monday with the phone riging and a very, very, very upset customer on the other end of the phone call. The loads were still sitting in Kankakee when they should have been delivered in New Orleans. Doubtful, but I don't actually know. I do know (as do the dispatchers and road crews far better than I) that these foul ups are complex with multiple sides to the story, generally related to faulty communication by one or more parties involved.
greyhounds charlie hebdo A friend of mine worked IC and ICG in the dispatching side from the late 60s through retirement. He describes that period as at best, very tumultuous, and he wasn't some malcontent. Although the EHH years were the worst, other execs were also very myoptic. Is your friend the guy who blew #51 by a SCHEDULED pick up in Kankakee and left 10 or so very hot R.R. Donnely TOFC loads sitting for two days? If so, I'd like to talk with him. I took the phone call from a very upset major customer first thing on a Monday morning. I had communicated that it was a "Hot Pick Up" and provided the flatcar numbers before I went home Friday. I came in on Monday with the phone riging and a very, very, very upset customer on the other end of the phone call. The loads were still sitting in Kankakee when they should have been delivered in New Orleans.
charlie hebdo A friend of mine worked IC and ICG in the dispatching side from the late 60s through retirement. He describes that period as at best, very tumultuous, and he wasn't some malcontent. Although the EHH years were the worst, other execs were also very myoptic.
A friend of mine worked IC and ICG in the dispatching side from the late 60s through retirement. He describes that period as at best, very tumultuous, and he wasn't some malcontent. Although the EHH years were the worst, other execs were also very myoptic.
Is your friend the guy who blew #51 by a SCHEDULED pick up in Kankakee and left 10 or so very hot R.R. Donnely TOFC loads sitting for two days? If so, I'd like to talk with him. I took the phone call from a very upset major customer first thing on a Monday morning.
I had communicated that it was a "Hot Pick Up" and provided the flatcar numbers before I went home Friday. I came in on Monday with the phone riging and a very, very, very upset customer on the other end of the phone call. The loads were still sitting in Kankakee when they should have been delivered in New Orleans.
Doubtful, but I don't actually know. I do know (as do the dispatchers and road crews far better than I) that these foul ups are complex with multiple sides to the story, generally related to faulty communication by one or more parties involved.
That assumes that it was a foul up and not a deliberate move to high ball the pickup. I've seen plenty of times when decisions are made because of the contingency of the moment outweigh other considerations. Sometimes it's the right move, sometimes it's not. And what's important to one department (sales/marketing) may not be important to another (operating). Even though one can't exist without the other.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.