A fallen flag carrier seems to have finally received much delayed national coverage of the Illinois Central Gulf. I have developed a "following" of the ICG. The two national photo essay publishers have come out w/history books of this rr. The lastest is a six part series, of which I already have the first pair. This is an interesting carrier and reading of the 70s era intermodal ops, the not-talked-too much of lines arcoss MO & IA again has a history to tell. In my BNSF hire class @ Kancks in '98. I hired w/ a guy w/worked ICG/CMNW/GWWR there (still working)and need to get in touch w/him about his ICG yrs. For anyone who may have knowledge of the mainline south of Chicago: what are the crew change districts to at least Carbondale, the home terminals, and how many locations does CN still maintain yard jobs through there?
It's been a while, but I remember it took seven crews to move a freight train from Chicago to New Orleans. Remember, the railroad split south of Effingham, IL with two routes to Fulton, KY. The eastern most route, known as the Edgewood Cutoff or the Blueford Cutoff, had much less gradiant but was single track.
If I remember correctly on trains through Carbondale crews changed at:
Champaign, IL, Centrailia (or Carbondale), IL, Cairo, IL, Memphis, TN, Canton, MS, and McComb, MS.
On trains through Blueford crews changed at:
Champaign, IL, Blueford, IL, and Fulton, KY north of Memphis.
But wait, there's more! The railroad split again south of Memphis with the main freight route going through Yazoo City instead of Canton, MS. For trains routed through Yazoo City the crews changed there instead of Canton, MS.
I don't know the home terminals.
This union required blatant overmanning, along with contract required BS such as "Tabulated Locals" just bled the company dry. And the unions were quite happy to do that.
On some of those stretches wasn't one of the lines ex-GM&O, and the other ex-IC?
greyhounds This union required blatant overmanning, along with contract required BS such as "Tabulated Locals" just bled the company dry. And the unions were quite happy to do that.
Regrettably, they were far from the only railroad to suffer from this in the 'bad old days' of the 60s, 70s and to a lesser extent 80s.
What is a "tabulated local"?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I missed the ICG but I worked at Fort Knox, KY for two years while working for EDS while assigned to the U.S. Army Recruiting Command and I remember the former ICG climbing up grade South of Louisville towards Fort Knox along the Ohio River. One of the most beautiful pieces of railroading I have seen and pretty close to mountain railroading with it's trestles and grades. The Army spur into Fort Knox did significant business with the line and the Army had 2-3 red high hood Geeps stationed on Fort Knox, and engine house and track with warehouses everywhere. The two combined always had somewhat of a show going on each day on the drive into or out of work. That was 1995-1996. Forget the railroad named shortline that ran the IC line back......I think it was Paducah and Louisville.
I am sure the line is still in use and if your ever in Louisville, Kentucky it is worth a side trip.
SF Brakman: Here is a link to a website that may interest you in your search for things ICG: Mississippi Rails @ http://www.msrailroads.com/ICG.htm
This one of thiose site with lots of links, and all sorts of information in regards to 'Rails in Mississippi' It is one of those site that will require, coffee in hand, and some time to explore.
Here linked is an ICGRR Locomotive Photo Roster @ http://rrpicturearchives.net
/locolist.aspx?id=ICG
This linked site has a lot of info on the ICRR (and ICGRR) listed and searchable under the 'CONSIST' side of its website page: @ http://illinois-central.net/
Hopefully this will give you sone resources in the search.
SD70Dude On some of those stretches wasn't one of the lines ex-GM&O, and the other ex-IC? greyhounds This union required blatant overmanning, along with contract required BS such as "Tabulated Locals" just bled the company dry. And the unions were quite happy to do that. Regrettably, they were far from the only railroad to suffer from this in the 'bad old days' of the 60s, 70s and to a lesser extent 80s. What is a "tabulated local"?
No, the Chicago-New Orleans main line was all ex-IC. The two ex-GM&O lines though Mississippi were not in good shape.
A tablulated local, or "Tab Local" was a local freight that had found its way in to the labor contracts. The provisions of the labor contracts required that the full four person crew be paid whether the local was operated or not.
The crew got paid even if there were very few (or no) cars to move. So the train operated six days per week.
We couldn't spend the money twice. So main line service, where we could have developed more business, suffered because we had to operate trains that had outlived their economic purpose. Markets change readily, labor contracts don't.
greyhounds SD70Dude On some of those stretches wasn't one of the lines ex-GM&O, and the other ex-IC? greyhounds This union required blatant overmanning, along with contract required BS such as "Tabulated Locals" just bled the company dry. And the unions were quite happy to do that. Regrettably, they were far from the only railroad to suffer from this in the 'bad old days' of the 60s, 70s and to a lesser extent 80s. What is a "tabulated local"? No, the Chicago-New Orleans main line was all ex-IC. The two ex-GM&O lines thought Mississippi were not in good shape. A tablulated local, or "Tab Local" was a local freight that had found its way in to the labor contracts. The provisions of the labor contracts required that the full four person crew be paid whether the local was operated or not. The crew got paid even if there were very few (or no) cars to move. So the train operated six days per week. We couldn't spend the money twice. So main line service, where we could have developed more business, suffered because we had to operate trains that had outlived their economic purpose. Markets change readily, labor contracts don't.
No, the Chicago-New Orleans main line was all ex-IC. The two ex-GM&O lines thought Mississippi were not in good shape.
On the local level - the provisions of the contracts CAN BE CHANGED. It does require Division level company management and Division level union official being able to sit in the same room with wanting to physically kill their counterpart.
In my experience there have been numerous local modifications to the National Agreement implemented for the benefit of both parties to the agreements. On my property they were referred to as 'Side Letters' with specific language being stated and enforced from both sides.
If both entities enter a negotiation with the 'I'm not doing anything' mindset there is no reason to go to the negotiation. In the pre-Staggers era WW II was more amicable than the company-union relationship.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
How many thousands of jobs disappeared because of this war of attrition? Such blindness.
Gramp How many thousands of jobs disappeared because of this war of attrition? Such blindness.
A friend of mine worked IC and ICG in the dispatching side from the late 60s through retirement. He describes that period as at best, very tumultuous, and he wasn't some malcontent. Although the EHH years were the worst, other execs were also very myoptic.
greyhounds A tablulated local, or "Tab Local" was a local freight that had found its way in to the labor contracts. The provisions of the labor contracts required that the full four person crew be paid whether the local was operated or not. The crew got paid even if there were very few (or no) cars to move. So the train operated six days per week. We couldn't spend the money twice. So main line service, where we could have developed more business, suffered because we had to operate trains that had outlived their economic purpose. Markets change readily, labor contracts don't.
This doesn't sound that different from the income protections and guarantees that still exist in our contracts for employees working in assigned service, our term for this type of claim is "held and not used". If the company fails to use the assigned crew at their assigned start time or within their call window they are not required to accept another call, and will still get paid at least the basic daily rate.
This protection, along with the 100 mile/8 hour minimum day, exists so that the company cannot screw around and pay regular employees less than a living wage while also holding them back from other work just so that they have a crew available.
Of course, in our current system the company is free to create and abolish assigned jobs as long as they give the appropriate advance notice, I believe it's a couple weeks.
As you can imagine, held and not used payments are not common these days, and usually occur due to unforeseen situations like locomotive failure or lack of available employees to fill out the crew, not due to lack of work. In the case of a slow day, the crew will still be called and do whatever work there is, and then sit around until their 8 hour shift is done. Or a very short train/light engine will be operated in the case of wayfreight or thrufreight assignments (doing this keeps deadheads and held and not used claims hidden from upper management).
Did the old ICG agreements require a tab local to be operated regularly on each subdivision?
samfp1943It might be that we are looking at the story of the Illinois Central as just one of a railroad that was pretty successful; to the extent that, because of its railroad success it became a target of 'Investors'
I don't think the GM&O lines through Jackson ever qualified as more than streaks of rust at any time in the ICG years. But I was not there.
SD70DudeThis doesn't sound that different from the income protections and guarantees that still exist in our contracts for employees working in assigned service, our term for this type of claim is "held and not used". If the company fails to use the assigned crew at their assigned start time or within their call window they are not required to accept another call, and will still get paid at least the basic daily rate. This protection, along with the 100 mile/8 hour minimum day, exists so that the company cannot screw around and pay regular employees less than a living wage while also holding them back from other work just so that they have a crew available. Of course, in our current system the company is free to create and abolish assigned jobs as long as they give the appropriate advance notice, I believe it's a couple weeks.
I think that's "Just and Reasonable". To use an old time phrase. If an employee has an assigned job, and that job is not required that day it's not his/her fault. The employee's bills don't go away.
The kicker is that the ICG couldn't abolish the assignment without union agreement. Good luck with that. So we were stuck with these four person crews poking along no longer needed branch lines and elsewhere while larger markets for main line service suffered. Can't spend the money twice.
The operation of tabulated locals was extensive but I don't remember, if I ever knew, exactly where they were required.
charlie hebdo A friend of mine worked IC and ICG in the dispatching side from the late 60s through retirement. He describes that period as at best, very tumultuous, and he wasn't some malcontent. Although the EHH years were the worst, other execs were also very myoptic.
Is your friend the guy who blew #51 by a SCHEDULED pick up in Kankakee and left 10 or so very hot R.R. Donnely TOFC loads sitting for two days? If so, I'd like to talk with him. I took the phone call from a very upset major customer first thing on a Monday morning.
I had communicated that it was a "Hot Pick Up" and provided the flatcar numbers before I went home Friday. I came in on Monday with the phone riging and a very, very, very upset customer on the other end of the phone call. The loads were still sitting in Kankakee when they should have been delivered in New Orleans.
greyhoundsIs your friend the guy who blew #51 by a SCHEDULED pick up in Kankakee and left 10 or so very hot R.R. Donnely TOFC loads sitting for two days? If so, I'd like to talk with him. I took the phone call from a very upset major customer first thing on a Monday morning.
I like when a customer demands a super hot shipment - then it sits in the industry for a few days before it gets loaded/unloaded (we ran it there so fast it cooled down?). Sometimes there's a huge disconnect between the people in the office that order the cars and the people on the floor that unload/load/use the product. (this is not a rare incident, either - "the customer who cried hot" ).
greyhoundsI had communicated that it was a "Hot Pick Up" and provided the flatcar numbers before I went home Friday. I came in on Monday with the phone riging and a very, very, very upset customer on the other end of the phone call. The loads were still sitting in Kankakee when they should have been delivered in New Orleans.
Did you tell the crew or someone else?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
samfp1943 Recall that in the 1980's, the ICG operated some 8K + Miles of railroad on somethiong like 33K+ of ROW.
33,000 + miles? Am I reading that correctly?
zugmann greyhounds Is your friend the guy who blew #51 by a SCHEDULED pick up in Kankakee and left 10 or so very hot R.R. Donnely TOFC loads sitting for two days? If so, I'd like to talk with him. I took the phone call from a very upset major customer first thing on a Monday morning. I like when a customer demands a super hot shipment - then it sits in the industry for a few days before it gets loaded/unloaded (we ran it there so fast it cooled down?). Sometimes there's a huge disconnect between the people in the office that order the cars and the people on the floor that unload/load/use the product. (this is not a rare incident, either - "the customer who cried hot" ). greyhounds I had communicated that it was a "Hot Pick Up" and provided the flatcar numbers before I went home Friday. I came in on Monday with the phone riging and a very, very, very upset customer on the other end of the phone call. The loads were still sitting in Kankakee when they should have been delivered in New Orleans. Did you tell the crew or someone else?
greyhounds Is your friend the guy who blew #51 by a SCHEDULED pick up in Kankakee and left 10 or so very hot R.R. Donnely TOFC loads sitting for two days? If so, I'd like to talk with him. I took the phone call from a very upset major customer first thing on a Monday morning.
greyhounds I had communicated that it was a "Hot Pick Up" and provided the flatcar numbers before I went home Friday. I came in on Monday with the phone riging and a very, very, very upset customer on the other end of the phone call. The loads were still sitting in Kankakee when they should have been delivered in New Orleans.
No, I didn't tell the train crew. I was in intermodal marketing and pricing. I didn't talk to train crews unless I was riding a train. But I did communicate that the P/U was "Hot".
This wasn't anything beyond moving the TOFC loads on the schedule we sold. I noted it because I wanted the schedule observed, nothing more.
The loads were telephone books (remember them) printed at the R.R. Donnelley facility in Dwight, IL. They were trucked to our TOFC ramp in Kankakee for movement to New Orleans.
Why were telephone books "Hot Freight"? Well, they held the printing as long as possible so it would include as many changes as possible. Then the phone company didn't get paid for the yellow pages ads until the books were delivered. So there was that time compression. In addition, they had hired workers to distribute the books. If the books weren't delivered in time those workers had nothing to do. All in all, the railroad just keep the schedule and deliver on time.
The fools in the ICG operating department couldn't do even that. #51 had a SCHEDULED pick up in Kankakee on Saturdays and they just blew it off. Kicked the customer in the gonads because it was more convenient that day to just blow off a SCHEDULED pick up. And THEN. No one lifted a finger or made a phone call until Monday. They just let the loads sit.
greyhoundsThe fools in the ICG operating department couldn't do even that. #51 had a SCHEDULED pick up in Kankakee on Saturdays and they just blew it off. Kicked the customer in the gonads because it was more convenient that day to just blow off a SCHEDULED pick up. And THEN. No one lifted a finger or made a phone call until Monday. They just let the loads sit.
Probably more to the story. Usually is.
Convicted One samfp1943 Recall that in the 1980's, the ICG operated some 8K + Miles of railroad on somethiong like 33K+ of ROW. 33,000 + miles? Am I reading that correctly?
samfp1943 Recall that in the 1980's, the ICG operated some 8K + Miles of railroad on somethiong like 33K+ of ROW. 33,000 + miles? Am I reading that correctly?
Note: Convicted One: My error! The amount of track was accurate..The ROW comprised some 13,522 mi...
My error was that I had confused TON Miles of freight; which for 1980 was 33,276 MIllion Ton Miles of revenue freight..
Nice catch !
greyhounds charlie hebdo A friend of mine worked IC and ICG in the dispatching side from the late 60s through retirement. He describes that period as at best, very tumultuous, and he wasn't some malcontent. Although the EHH years were the worst, other execs were also very myoptic. Is your friend the guy who blew #51 by a SCHEDULED pick up in Kankakee and left 10 or so very hot R.R. Donnely TOFC loads sitting for two days? If so, I'd like to talk with him. I took the phone call from a very upset major customer first thing on a Monday morning. I had communicated that it was a "Hot Pick Up" and provided the flatcar numbers before I went home Friday. I came in on Monday with the phone riging and a very, very, very upset customer on the other end of the phone call. The loads were still sitting in Kankakee when they should have been delivered in New Orleans.
Doubtful, but I don't actually know. I do know (as do the dispatchers and road crews far better than I) that these foul ups are complex with multiple sides to the story, generally related to faulty communication by one or more parties involved.
Regular assigned jobs being abolished: crew has to be notified no less than 48 hrs before the assignment is abolished, and effected employees are placed to the bump board
charlie hebdo greyhounds charlie hebdo A friend of mine worked IC and ICG in the dispatching side from the late 60s through retirement. He describes that period as at best, very tumultuous, and he wasn't some malcontent. Although the EHH years were the worst, other execs were also very myoptic. Is your friend the guy who blew #51 by a SCHEDULED pick up in Kankakee and left 10 or so very hot R.R. Donnely TOFC loads sitting for two days? If so, I'd like to talk with him. I took the phone call from a very upset major customer first thing on a Monday morning. I had communicated that it was a "Hot Pick Up" and provided the flatcar numbers before I went home Friday. I came in on Monday with the phone riging and a very, very, very upset customer on the other end of the phone call. The loads were still sitting in Kankakee when they should have been delivered in New Orleans. Doubtful, but I don't actually know. I do know (as do the dispatchers and road crews far better than I) that these foul ups are complex with multiple sides to the story, generally related to faulty communication by one or more parties involved.
That assumes that it was a foul up and not a deliberate move to high ball the pickup. I've seen plenty of times when decisions are made because of the contingency of the moment outweigh other considerations. Sometimes it's the right move, sometimes it's not. And what's important to one department (sales/marketing) may not be important to another (operating). Even though one can't exist without the other.
Jeff
And sometimes it's lazy crews that don't want to do the work and managers that don't keep after them. I worked with crews that would kill time any way they could so that they wouldn't have time to pick up interchange cars near the end of their run. Some local crews would time their arrival at their off duty point so that they ran out of time on the main track and could not yard their train.
One conductor said making overtime started at the beginning of the day.
The Boston & Maine crew That I worked with winer]-spring 1952-53 Was customer-service oriented.
For those interested, there is a first person blurb in Rush Loving Jr's book The Well Dressed Hobo concerning the final attrition of the ICG.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
mvlandsw And sometimes it's lazy crews that don't want to do the work and managers that don't keep after them. I worked with crews that would kill time any way they could so that they wouldn't have time to pick up interchange cars near the end of their run. Some local crews would time their arrival at their off duty point so that they ran out of time on the main track and could not yard their train. One conductor said making overtime started at the beginning of the day.
That's a pretty rough statement to make about operating folks. Front office people often don't appreciate the front line workers' jobs.
An earlier post by another member says it all about management attitudes: "union required blatant overmanning" "contract required BS"
mvlandswAnd sometimes it's lazy crews that don't want to do the work and managers that don't keep after them. I worked with crews that would kill time any way they could so that they wouldn't have time to pick up interchange cars near the end of their run. Some local crews would time their arrival at their off duty point so that they ran out of time on the main track and could not yard their train. One conductor said making overtime started at the beginning of the day.
The actions I observed from SOU crews as they crossed over at Storrs Jct. in Cincinati as the made their way from their yard to interchange with the Big 4 yard West of Storrs Jct. You had to pick a known stationary object to be able to gauge their speed of movement - sometimes the stationary object moved faster.
Management has NEVER seen a non-management employee that they didn't consider a slacker.
charlie hebdo mvlandsw And sometimes it's lazy crews that don't want to do the work and managers that don't keep after them. I worked with crews that would kill time any way they could so that they wouldn't have time to pick up interchange cars near the end of their run. Some local crews would time their arrival at their off duty point so that they ran out of time on the main track and could not yard their train. One conductor said making overtime started at the beginning of the day. That's a pretty rough statement to make about operating folks. Front office people often don't appreciate the front line workers' jobs.
Except he's right. Take it from me, an actual operating employee, though I don't have nearly as much seniority as him.
The bad apples give the rest of us a bad name.
I've seen co-workers do everything he listed and then some, and I may have even participated in it myself on occasion (it is amazing how a bullying supervisor can negatively affect a crew's work ethic).
As long as I am treated respectfully by management I will work to the best of my abilities.
charlie hebdo An earlier post by another member says it all about management attitudes: "union required blatant overmanning" "contract required BS"
When referring to the era of three brakemen per train and firemen on diesels, he has a point.
There are good operating guys and there are bad ones.
There are good managers and there are bad ones.
SD70Dude charlie hebdo mvlandsw And sometimes it's lazy crews that don't want to do the work and managers that don't keep after them. I worked with crews that would kill time any way they could so that they wouldn't have time to pick up interchange cars near the end of their run. Some local crews would time their arrival at their off duty point so that they ran out of time on the main track and could not yard their train. One conductor said making overtime started at the beginning of the day. That's a pretty rough statement to make about operating folks. Front office people often don't appreciate the front line workers' jobs. Except he's right. Take it from me, an actual operating employee, though I don't have nearly as much seniority as him. The bad apples give the rest of us a bad name. I've seen co-workers do everything he listed and then some, and I may have even participated in it myself on occasion (it is amazing how a bullying supervisor can negatively affect a crew's work ethic). As long as I am treated respectfully by management I will work to the best of my abilities. charlie hebdo An earlier post by another member says it all about management attitudes: "union required blatant overmanning" "contract required BS" When referring to the era of three brakemen per train and firemen on diesels, he has a point.
Yes, of course. But what about management, not just EHH? They seem to get off scot free on here for the most part, as though any time an error occurs, it's never anything to do with them.
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