I think they need large signs that have a simple diagram of the situation. It would show the road, with an arrow (placed like a car on the road) on it pointing in the direction of travel. The sign would show the first cross-street, then two distinct RR tracks, then the second cross-street. Below the diagragm would be the words: "For Left Turn, First Cross Railroad Tracks." Hang the sign over the road, and make it orange with white reflective lettering.
The problem with using lane markers would be that they would be below your field of view as you entered the intersection. You might see them as you approach, unless you're busy looking at your GPS, phone, or other distraction.
On the Interstate, you're seeing them well ahead of you and they form a trend.
That's not to say they would be useless. The approaches to the crossing look pretty flat and the red might catch ones eye.
The MUTCD calls for white for edge lines and yellow for centerlines. I'm not sure that red is defined for highway marking. The standard curb marking for fire hydrants is yellow. Remember that red tends to turn black in the dark, save reflective properties.
Another issue in snow country is that they have to be recessed into the pavement or constructed such that snowplows won't clear them off the road.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Could reflective yellow and red lane markers have a desireable effect ?
the state here uses them with many placed on I-85. Heard they cost about #$ 7.50 a piece ? A couple thousand would be somewhat expensive.
tree68In this case, the driver apparently turned when the GPS said to turn. I have my doubts he looked before turning the wheel...
Overmod charlie hebdo That's what I said. I fail to see what you have added except words. That's not at all what you said, and you've added too many words in having more than two in your second sentence. You mentioned nothing except British-style rotating gates. Had you actually used your vaunted reading comprehension, I think you'd have seen that was only the analogy to what he was describing -- which was using an additional, common-stock OTS, crossing-gate mechanism at right angles to block rail access asynchronously without the sweep problems, more real derailment risk, etc of a British-style swing gate set at that location. Of course you're welcome to advocate swing-gate use here or elsewhere in the United States. The problem you'll have is that no one anywhere has adopted them instead of lifting barriers. That might indicate that people with actual responsibility for crossing security have evaluated them and found them wanting.
charlie hebdo That's what I said. I fail to see what you have added except words.
That's not at all what you said, and you've added too many words in having more than two in your second sentence.
You mentioned nothing except British-style rotating gates. Had you actually used your vaunted reading comprehension, I think you'd have seen that was only the analogy to what he was describing -- which was using an additional, common-stock OTS, crossing-gate mechanism at right angles to block rail access asynchronously without the sweep problems, more real derailment risk, etc of a British-style swing gate set at that location.
Of course you're welcome to advocate swing-gate use here or elsewhere in the United States. The problem you'll have is that no one anywhere has adopted them instead of lifting barriers. That might indicate that people with actual responsibility for crossing security have evaluated them and found them wanting.
Yeah you're probably right, using your vaunted knowledge. It was just a thought. Sorry to get you so riled up.
zugmannBut that would mean people look where they are turning. They don't always do that
In this case, the driver apparently turned when the GPS said to turn. I have my doubts he looked before turning the wheel...
Looking at the Ashland north camera today... at 7:14p (local time) someone backs their car from the parking lot right into the DO NOT ENTER sign. Kept them from backing onto the tracks, I guess?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Actually; Ashland probably stumbled across the resolution earlier this year when they closed the southbound lanes to vehicular traffic to allow the restaurant and other businesses more space for social distancing.
The street on the far side of the tracks is now pedestrian only for the first block south from the crossing by the camera.
To my knowledge, there haven't been any left turns onto the tracks since the street was closed.
EuclidSo the obvious solution is traffic circles. Finally they would have a purpose.
I didn't use to get traffic circles, either. But then I've been on some that actually work. I don't know if there'd be room there for a proper one.
n012944That process does not take 30 seconds, more like a couple of minutes.
In due time I'm sure the PSCC will be able to light up the xing in the PTC system directly.
The cause of the problem is obvious. People are accustomed to making a left turn. They begin turning left immediately after passing over first lanes of traffic that carry traffic from their left to right. People know that they should turn sharp enough to enter the left side of the left-bound lanes. So exactly where they expect to drive through the left turn, they find themselves on a double track railroad instead of the left-bound lanes. Therefore, I doubt this ever happens with drivers making a right turn. They would encounter the turn prior to the railroad instead of after it.
So the obvious solution is traffic circles. Finally they would have a purpose.
Lithonia Operator I suppose they could create a phone line at the dispatcher's desk that is there ONLY for emergencies, and give out the number only to first responders.
I suppose they could create a phone line at the dispatcher's desk that is there ONLY for emergencies, and give out the number only to first responders.
The police, and the phone number on the blue sign, go to the railroad's public safety command center. There the person on the phone will give the location of the crossing, with the DOT number, to the PSCC rep. The rep will then call the dispatcher on a hotline, giving the milepost of the crossing. The dispatcher will then stop all trains before the crossing. That process does not take 30 seconds, more like a couple of minutes.
An "expensive model collector"
7j43kIf the tracks were lit up like a street, a driver would be able to see that they were tracks. Not street. As it is, what they see is something dark. Like an asphalt paved street. They WANT to see a street, and so they do.
But that would mean people look where they are turning. They don't always do that. Maybe light it up in bright red?
Need a traffic psychologist to weigh in. Don't think we have one.
tree68I would put yellow reflective on the gates that went across the road, facing the road, rather than red and white stripes. Drivers are used to seeing yellow in that situation.
That or some James Bond style pop-up shrubbery.
tree68 As for lighting the crossing, you'd have to be careful not to make the tracks be lit up like a street. Lighting the road and leaving the tracks dark would probably be more effective, especially given that the adjacent streets are well lit.
As for lighting the crossing, you'd have to be careful not to make the tracks be lit up like a street. Lighting the road and leaving the tracks dark would probably be more effective, especially given that the adjacent streets are well lit.
If the tracks were lit up like a street, a driver would be able to see that they were tracks. Not street. As it is, what they see is something dark. Like an asphalt paved street. They WANT to see a street, and so they do.
In addition, brightly lit areas in your vision draw your attention. In this case, towards the track. Which you then will likely see, as tracks.
I do think that the crossing gate idea is pretty good, though. Might want to light them up, too.
Ed
charlie hebdoThat's what I said. I fail to see what you have added except words.
charlie hebdo If the gates rotate, there is no need for a 2nd set or raising and lowering. Redundant and more costly. Of course this system does not work well on heavily-trafficked rail lines.
If the gates rotate, there is no need for a 2nd set or raising and lowering. Redundant and more costly. Of course this system does not work well on heavily-trafficked rail lines.
Using current technology is generally cheaper and easier than creating something new. And drivers are used to the current gates. Aside from a minor change in the internal guts of the gates, it's pretty much off the shelf stuff.
I would put yellow reflective on the gates that went across the road, facing the road, rather than red and white stripes. Drivers are used to seeing yellow in that situation.
Now if it stayed above freezing, you could have a fine mist or spray across the tracks - and project lights upon that (make a virtual wall). Kind of a neat safety/art solution. But if it got cold, that wouldn't work too well.
I saw a video of somewhere this was done for overheight vehicles (europe or asia?). haven't found it again yet.
Edit: it was Australia! https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1008464/Amazing-water-curtain-Stop-sign.html
Well, no. You mentioned the swinging/rotating gates on the British installation. He pointed out the use of the common US crossing gates which raise and lower. While the concept is similar, the execution is very different.
Between the date of the crash shown in the video (January 15, 2017) and a later video shot in 2018, it appears that CSX extended the height of the two crossing signal mounting poles, and added two signal heads each. Placement would indicate it's related to the street crossing.
I don't know how they're activated, nor what they are intended to signal. Only that they are new. I can imagine that they COULD be activated by the dispatcher, and/or the police/fire, and COULD tell a train that there's a track obstruction.
One thing that I noticed is that where the cars drive onto the tracks, the lighting is non-existant. I think "someone" should string a cable across the tracks, and suspend a downward facing (bright) light source over the tracks.
There is a major problem with all this tech talk.
1. people have brain farts. Attention can easily be diverted long enough to make a fatal mistake. Look at all the truck grade crossing incidents.
2. Depending on Tech causes drivers to expect the tech every where. Then you have more accidents elsewhere.
3. GPS has led some persons down a primrose path. I have argued with mine more than once. " no way" , "not now " , " I don't think so "
Overmod charlie hebdo I think the gates rotate, across the tracks as the default position, then moving to block the road if a train is coming. They do in Britain. What he's suggesting is the same blocking action with a standard counterweighted crossing gate that lowers across the tracks to prevent vehicle 'transgression' at all times a train has not actuated the crossing protection. Then after the crossing gates have fully dropped the cross-barriers would rise... There are associated problems with this idea, including the very distant but legally significant risk of derailment if a barrier does not raise properly and a train hits it. The cost is also orders of magnitude beyond paint, the flexible pole barriers, and appropriate warning signage, and likely also beyond effective ramping.
charlie hebdo I think the gates rotate, across the tracks as the default position, then moving to block the road if a train is coming.
They do in Britain. What he's suggesting is the same blocking action with a standard counterweighted crossing gate that lowers across the tracks to prevent vehicle 'transgression' at all times a train has not actuated the crossing protection. Then after the crossing gates have fully dropped the cross-barriers would rise...
There are associated problems with this idea, including the very distant but legally significant risk of derailment if a barrier does not raise properly and a train hits it. The cost is also orders of magnitude beyond paint, the flexible pole barriers, and appropriate warning signage, and likely also beyond effective ramping.
That's what I said. I fail to see what you have added except words.
Lithonia OperatorI suppose they could create a phone line at the dispatcher's desk that is there ONLY for emergencies, and give out the number only to first responders. Or maybe issue CSX-frequency radios to the cops; but I don't know what the realities are concerning radio range, and I'm guessing this approach might be too unreliable.
In theory, the number on the blue plates is for emergencies. A citizen calling to report a blocked crossing should get the same response as the police.
Back when most police agencies used VHF-Hi Band radios, the radio idea might have made sense - today's trunked systems would require a "gateway" to be installed between the two systems. Range on a mobile is measured in tens of miles. A handheld would be good for a mile or three, depending on terrain.
You also have the problem of keeping said radio (in a patrol car) ready to go. Portables need periodic recharging, and a mobile radio takes up space that is frequently at a premium in today's patrol vehicles. In a trunked system all you'd need would be another talkgroup, though.
There then comes the question of whether the frequency of incidents is worth the cost (both equipment and training). Maybe in a place like Ashland, otherwise not so much.
It would be better to look at ways of engineering the problem out of existence, such as with the delineators or gates.
The gates, by the way, are usually fiberglass, and are made to swing out of the way or break if struck. Derailment wouldn't be a problem. While no solution can be 100%, I would opine that this is perhaps one of the better options.
zugmannI'd hope for better camera angles.
A warning shot fired across the bow of all citizens of Ashland: "Be it known all people, that CSX trains do not stop for cars, ...Cars stop for trains" ..and quit asking us to paint our bridges...
EuclidNo I mean staged as a lecture to prove a point.
I'd hope for better camera angles.
zugmann Euclid With all of that in mind, this most recent collision in Ashland almost looks as though it were staged. You think they were just bored in Ashland that night? Maybe Virtual Railfan wanted more views?
Euclid With all of that in mind, this most recent collision in Ashland almost looks as though it were staged.
You think they were just bored in Ashland that night? Maybe Virtual Railfan wanted more views?
No I mean staged as a lecture to prove a point.
Lithonia Operator I think it's unrealistic to think that the police could call CSX within 30 seconds. It might be that they would try to do that. But dispatchers are busy guys, and they get a lot of calls. There's no way I know of to assure that the cops can get through quickly, unless they were to create a "hot line" from Ashland PD to CSX; and they'd also have to have a way that a cop with a cell phone or radio can quickly patch into that system very quickly. I suppose they could create a phone line at the dispatcher's desk that is there ONLY for emergencies, and give out the number only to first responders. Or maybe issue CSX-frequency radios to the cops; but I don't know what the realities are concerning radio range, and I'm guessing this approach might be too unreliable.
I think it's unrealistic to think that the police could call CSX within 30 seconds. It might be that they would try to do that. But dispatchers are busy guys, and they get a lot of calls. There's no way I know of to assure that the cops can get through quickly, unless they were to create a "hot line" from Ashland PD to CSX; and they'd also have to have a way that a cop with a cell phone or radio can quickly patch into that system very quickly.
I suppose they could create a phone line at the dispatcher's desk that is there ONLY for emergencies, and give out the number only to first responders. Or maybe issue CSX-frequency radios to the cops; but I don't know what the realities are concerning radio range, and I'm guessing this approach might be too unreliable.
Well yes, it has to be the hottest possible hotline, maybe even directly into the locomotive cab. If it is just a normal routine, through the channels with a phone call, forget it. It could take an hour. However, it is the Ashland website that says that first responders routine is to contact the railroad. That protcol is pointless if it is not lightning fast. Apparently this latest collsion proves that.
The main point is that these stalled vehicle incidents often provide ample time to notify and stop a train.
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