Lithonia OperatorIn this article (which Euclid linked earlier) https://www.nbc12.com/story/34345572/after-alarming-track-incidents-ashland-looks-to-improve-railroad-safety/ it says there are 60-80 trains a day passing through Ashland. Can this possibly be true? (Calling Balt!) I have been to Ashland four times, I think, all in daylight. On two occasions I probably stayed for an hour. Twice about half an hour. I have seen a total of one train there, the AutoTrain. That's all.
https://www.nbc12.com/story/34345572/after-alarming-track-incidents-ashland-looks-to-improve-railroad-safety/
it says there are 60-80 trains a day passing through Ashland. Can this possibly be true? (Calling Balt!) I have been to Ashland four times, I think, all in daylight. On two occasions I probably stayed for an hour. Twice about half an hour. I have seen a total of one train there, the AutoTrain. That's all.
CSX Traffic on the RF&P is predominately night time. Most traffic is scheduled to provide minimum conflict with Amtrak and VRE operations.
The 60-80 trains is somewhat optimistic in the days of PSR and Amtrak reducing their LD trains to 3 trips a week - While Amtrak has reduced their LD's the state sponsored NC and VA trains are still operating on their normal basis.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
In this article (which Euclid linked earlier)
tree68 Still, it comes down to people not looking where they are going, despite any and all engineering controls that might be applied. Had that driver run the gates, then made his turn onto the ROW, the results would have been much different.
Situational awarness is at an all time low these days..
The one factor that applies to this location way more than any other location is the unusual street and railroad layout. Whatever mistake the drivers are making in these similar accidents, they all make that mistake while navigating this unusual street/grade crossing layout.
Lithonia Operator In the local news article Euclid linked earlier in this thread, it said that 67% of these situations involve alcohol. Making things more clear via better signage may not help much with foggy drivers.
In the local news article Euclid linked earlier in this thread, it said that 67% of these situations involve alcohol. Making things more clear via better signage may not help much with foggy drivers.
Signs only work if people see them. This is true of sober, distracted drivers as well.
The vertical traffic delineators might be promising as long as they can clear the trains. That puts them in the field of vision of most drivers, as opposed to pavement markings.
The gate would do all of that, and a pair of them on either side of the crossing would provide something of a barrier as well.
Many "wooden" crossings have the edges bevelled. Adding a little asphalt as a ramp would be a rather inexpensive solution to those who actually miss all the other warnings.
I see apartments listed on Center Street - I would imagine students live in many of them, as well as some of the houses in that area, so the visitor idea has merit. Again, the use of GPS in this incident would square with that concept.
Still, it comes down to people not looking where they are going, despite any and all engineering controls that might be applied. Had that driver run the gates, then made his turn onto the ROW, the results would have been much different.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
It seems this may be a lot more than just a few.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02CDnqiqdlQ&t=356s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wgN8d2wXxg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02CDnqiqdlQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f99QtMCzMlk
and there are more.
type in ashland va car on tracks compilation
rdamonMaybe with a curb at the end up to rail height to stop forward progress.
I've noticed that Ashland has these pedestrian walkways built across the RR right of way.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7587156,-77.4814306,3a,41.1y,152.81h,73.51t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swdLM2RHC7o-ikmE2pPxF4A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DwdLM2RHC7o-ikmE2pPxF4A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D88.17291%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Perhaps a couple of those strategically placed might serve to alieviate concerns that grade crossing ramps might invite mororists to cruise on down the right of way?
What if some of these drivers are attempting a U-turn ? I know my tendancy is to turn as close to edge of pavement when I have to make a U-turn. That is a factor when turning a head of oncoming traffic.
Convicted One rdamon A stranded car may have to worry more about rust than getting hit by a train there. Likely true. But I still believe that making the Ashland crossings "escapable" is the solution most worth pursuing. That is of course assuming that a solution is what is being sought, rather than just another round of finger pointing at motorists for violating railroad's sacred turf.
rdamon A stranded car may have to worry more about rust than getting hit by a train there.
Likely true. But I still believe that making the Ashland crossings "escapable" is the solution most worth pursuing. That is of course assuming that a solution is what is being sought, rather than just another round of finger pointing at motorists for violating railroad's sacred turf.
True. Agree on the ramp or longer fade to allow for escape. Maybe with a curb at the end up to rail height to stop forward progress.
I am sure they will be able to 11'-8" that as well
tree68 Euclid I understand what you are saying about the railroad being there first. When I refer to dropping a railroad into the middle of the intersection, I am speaking conceptually and arbitrarily to first refer to an intersection and then adding the concept of a railroad. I see that sequence as representing how a driver would perceive the encounter. They are familiar with intersections and left turns, but are blindsided by the effect of the railroad. The intersection has existed in that form for some seventy years. You make it sound like the road came first. While there are things that could be done to improve the situation, the fact is that this particular incident occurred because a motorist didn't look where they were going. It would be interesting to find out how many other incidents at this crossing occurred for the same reason, and when. Was it a problem pre-GPS? Who are the drivers that make the mistake? Are they local, or is this more of a problem for out-of-towners - which the use of a GPS would suggest. But that is arbitrary, and I could just as well describe a railroad and then dropping the intesection right on top of the railroad. A more accurate description - go with it.
Euclid I understand what you are saying about the railroad being there first. When I refer to dropping a railroad into the middle of the intersection, I am speaking conceptually and arbitrarily to first refer to an intersection and then adding the concept of a railroad. I see that sequence as representing how a driver would perceive the encounter. They are familiar with intersections and left turns, but are blindsided by the effect of the railroad.
The intersection has existed in that form for some seventy years. You make it sound like the road came first.
While there are things that could be done to improve the situation, the fact is that this particular incident occurred because a motorist didn't look where they were going. It would be interesting to find out how many other incidents at this crossing occurred for the same reason, and when. Was it a problem pre-GPS? Who are the drivers that make the mistake? Are they local, or is this more of a problem for out-of-towners - which the use of a GPS would suggest.
But that is arbitrary, and I could just as well describe a railroad and then dropping the intesection right on top of the railroad.
A more accurate description - go with it.
In the Ashland area - the Kings Dominion Amusement Park draws numerous people from outside the local area. While Covid-19 has likely dimininshed attendence, I do believe the park did open some this year and some strangers would be circulating in the area - additionally Ashland is the home of Randolph-Macon College and colleges have any number of 'strangers' circulating in and around the town.
rdamonA stranded car may have to worry more about rust than getting hit by a train there.
Convicted One Here is a similar intersection in Miami, that we never hear about. Follow the RR north and there are additional intersection/crossings. https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7479952,-80.311473,3a,75y,305.07h,92.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPmOs3czsgggN1oNRWPZkwg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 We never hear about those. I'm sure that is not because Miami is short of careless drivers. I offer that it is simply because these crossings are more forgiving in providing a means of escape
Here is a similar intersection in Miami, that we never hear about. Follow the RR north and there are additional intersection/crossings.
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7479952,-80.311473,3a,75y,305.07h,92.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPmOs3czsgggN1oNRWPZkwg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
We never hear about those. I'm sure that is not because Miami is short of careless drivers. I offer that it is simply because these crossings are more forgiving in providing a means of escape
A stranded car may have to worry more about rust than getting hit by a train there.
As I explained, my point was not to say that the town was there prior to the railroad. I don't see that issue as having anyting to do with the cases of driving onto the tracks. The sequence I described was not which came first in construction, but which comes first in the driver's encounter. So I want the sequence to reflect that.
What I do NOT conclude is that an unusually number of cars driving onto the railroad track in that city is just because there an unusually high number of bad drivers in that area. I believe the rather atypical road/railroad relationship is providing a relatively greater challenge to drivers. If it was mostly caused by GPS misinterpretation, it would be happening at every grade crossing.
I think the problem is dirctly related to drivers making a left turn without considering the presence of the railroad. If they have never driven there, they may prepare for turning left without haveing any knowledge of the layout of the road they are turning onto. So they may assume it is a two-way steet and that they should bear to the left to avoid entering an oncoming lane. So they bear left to avoid the lanes furtherest from them, they find they have turned onto the railroad grade rather than the road.
EuclidI understand what you are saying about the railroad being there first. When I refer to dropping a railroad into the middle of the intersection, I am speaking conceptually and arbitrarily to first refer to an intersection and then adding the concept of a railroad. I see that sequence as representing how a driver would perceive the encounter. They are familiar with intersections and left turns, but are blindsided by the effect of the railroad.
tree68The intersection has been configured that way since at least 1951. We lack historical perspective of how often this type of incident has occured.
The problem in Ashland appears to be primarily at the RR crossings at England street and the crossing at Ashcake road. Ashland has several RR crossings over this line. But it appears that the vast majority of "stranded autos" occur at those two crossings.
What do those two crossings share that the other crossings do not? These two have prefabbed concrete panels for the roadway across the tracks, while the other crossings are an older "asphalt and RR tie" type construction.
The pre fabbed panels have abrupt edges that appear to make it difficult for stranded vehicles to escape, while the legacy asphalt and wood crossing designs feature tapered edges.
They have gone back and added asphalt tapered ramps at the Ashcake Rd crossing. As you can see here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7466835,-77.4853228,3a,22.9y,96.84h,84.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq-SvCKonPxSBoyWIu4dHnw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Still looks like a bumper-scraper, but perhaps this is adequate to permit escapes?
I don't believe you will ever design a system to make these crossings idiot proof. The world will always be able to build better idiots. Therefore, I believe the best bet is to feed into human ingenuity by providing those who are trapped with an easier means to escape.
Then you'll stop seeing videos about stranded autos in Ashland.
GPS is a TOOL not GOD.
Any instruction that GPS gives has to be viewed in the context of situational awareness.
When I was coming back from the races at Road America a couple of weeks ago when I got to Columbus and was following I-70 in downtown Columbus there were signs - DO NOT FOLLOW GPS - ROUTINGS HAVE CHANGED.
In the past to follow I-70 East one kept to the right at the divergance with I-71 North. With the construction that has been taking place, nowadays to follow I-70 East one now has to follow the left lane. All the while my GPS was commanding 'Keep Right'.
While GPS data does get updated, it is not always instantly up to date.
tree68What we do know is that in 1951, there was no one turning left there because their GPS told them to.
Also no Railfan Youtube channel to record them.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
tree68 Euclid Then when you drop a railroad right into the middle of the intersection, The railroad was there first - the town grew up around it. The intersection has been configured that way since at least 1951. We lack historical perspective of how often this type of incident has occured. What we do know is that in 1951, there was no one turning left there because their GPS told them to.
Euclid Then when you drop a railroad right into the middle of the intersection,
The railroad was there first - the town grew up around it.
The intersection has been configured that way since at least 1951. We lack historical perspective of how often this type of incident has occured.
What we do know is that in 1951, there was no one turning left there because their GPS told them to.
I understand what you are saying about the railroad being there first. When I refer to dropping a railroad into the middle of the intersection, I am speaking conceptually and arbitrarily to first refer to an intersection and then adding the concept of a railroad. I see that sequence as representing how a driver would perceive the encounter. They are familiar with intersections and left turns, but are blindsided by the effect of the railroad.
But that is arbitrary, and I could just as well describe a railroad and then dropping the intesection right on top of the railroad. Overall, it seems like a dangeous and ill-advised design concept.
With planning, it could have been avoided earlier, but now with the town built right up to the road/railroad corridor, I do not see how a redesign is possible without an unacceptable cost.
EuclidThen when you drop a railroad right into the middle of the intersection,
rdamon This is a very non-standard left turn. Crossing a two-lane road and then two tracks before initiating a turn is not intuitive unless you do it regularly. Most maps will not alert this you to it. Are there better pavement marking to keep the driver in their lane until across the tracks? Do they eliminate left turns?
Yes, you have identified the problem perfectly. The left turns are where the problem lies (except for those perfect people who never make a mistake).
In a conventional intersection, a driver perceives a natural square grid layout which is easy to assimilate. So they tend to lock in their routing before executing it. Once having it locked in, they proceed with their attention focused on their opposing lane which they will cross in the turn.
Then when you drop a railroad right into the middle of the intersection, drivers don’t account for how that affects their routing and the railroad could easily be mistaken for the point of turn for the driver’s idea of routing, especially since they are proceeding unconsciously after locking into their route concept that does not factor the presence of the railroad. Drivers may not even assimilate the presence of a railroad unless the flashers are activated. They certainly don’t expect the remote possibility of accidentally mistaking a railroad for the vehicle road they are following.
I believe the presence of the active railroad in the middle of the road grid is a major design flaw that somebody should have recognized before it was built. But that horse has left the barn and eliminating the problem now requires unacceptable options of separating the railroad from the street traffic. Maybe when this was originally laid out, the central focus of the railroad was regarded as a total benefit. But now, with long freight trains every 15 minutes or less passing through at 40 mph, the danger is obvious and the city may be in denial.
For the time being this train roulette is just a good natured part of the character of the town. The train drama may be somewhat of an unusual charm for the marketing of the town. Perhaps this masks the true deadly nature of the game. Will it take a multiple fatality to demand a call to action?
Silly me ..
I am sure Ashland, VA has a few file cabinets full of cases where this has happened before and what they have tried.
rdamonsomething like this on the centerline of the road even with the crossing arms on both sides may keep drivers to the right long enough to allow them to start their turn later.
Remember - Idots can outflank any attempt to idiot proof anything.
something like this on the centerline of the road even with the crossing arms on both sides may keep drivers to the right long enough to allow them to start their turn later.
I just looked at Google Streetview of the crossing - there are already reflective pavement markers where the vehicle went off the road...
Putting the sign where it will be seen may be a challenge.
One could probably make a similar sign in the yellow diamond format.
zugmann Lithonia Operator I think they need large signs that have a simple diagram of the situation. It would show the road, with an arrow (placed like a car on the road) on it pointing in the direction of travel. The sign would show the first cross-street, then two distinct RR tracks, then the second cross-street. Below the diagragm would be the words: "For Left Turn, First Cross Railroad Tracks." Hang the sign over the road, and make it orange with white reflective lettering. I'm not a traffic engineer - but took a peek at the MUTCD manual. Closest thing readily available is the R15-7 sign. Normally for light rail, would it be allowed in this situation? Would it help? https://store.hallsigns.com/R15-7-Light-Rail-Divided-Highway-Symbol_p_5562.html
Lithonia Operator I think they need large signs that have a simple diagram of the situation. It would show the road, with an arrow (placed like a car on the road) on it pointing in the direction of travel. The sign would show the first cross-street, then two distinct RR tracks, then the second cross-street. Below the diagragm would be the words: "For Left Turn, First Cross Railroad Tracks." Hang the sign over the road, and make it orange with white reflective lettering.
I think they need large signs that have a simple diagram of the situation. It would show the road, with an arrow (placed like a car on the road) on it pointing in the direction of travel. The sign would show the first cross-street, then two distinct RR tracks, then the second cross-street. Below the diagragm would be the words: "For Left Turn, First Cross Railroad Tracks." Hang the sign over the road, and make it orange with white reflective lettering.
I'm not a traffic engineer - but took a peek at the MUTCD manual. Closest thing readily available is the R15-7 sign. Normally for light rail, would it be allowed in this situation? Would it help?
https://store.hallsigns.com/R15-7-Light-Rail-Divided-Highway-Symbol_p_5562.html
That's very similar to what I was thinking!
Is there some type of law regarding signs? I mean, could Asland have a custom sign made?
Lithonia Operator Hang the sign over the road, and make it orange with white reflective lettering.
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