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The Wrong Paradigm Locked

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Posted by York1 on Saturday, July 4, 2020 2:20 PM

zugmann
"Hope it goes away" isnt much guidance. 

And I can see from your answer that certain cable news systems are getting their intended message out.

 

zugmann
But hey, nice dig at the cable news outlet.  Following the playbook.

Thanks!  I try!  By the way, if you ask nicely, I can send you a decoder and the scrambled playbook so you can follow, too!

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, July 4, 2020 2:15 PM

Observation - the Fed authorities have been competing with state authorities for all the supplies necessary in combating the virus.  Competition for resources when one entity is using them and the other entity is stockpiling them is lunacy of the highest order.

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, July 4, 2020 1:58 PM

York1
And there are those of us who believe the guidance has been there, regardless of what certain governors and certain cable news outlets believe.

"Hope it goes away" isnt much guidance. 

But hey, nice dig at the cable news outlet.  Following the playbook. 

  

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Posted by JPS1 on Saturday, July 4, 2020 1:23 PM

jcburns
  This information is out there, but because the Administration has chosen not to run an open, coordinated national effort, ..........

The CDC gathers testing information for the country.  As of today, July 4th, according to the Center, 36,255,888 Americans had been tested for COVID-19, and 3,282,484 or 9% had tested positive.
 
The U.S. has the third largest population in the world.  The notion that bureaucrats in Washington or Austin - my state capital - can develop and administer a well coordinate national response to COVID-19 is suspect.  
 
Most of the bureaucrats in Austin don't even know where Brewster County is located let alone be able to craft a response to COVID-19 that would work any better than what the locals are doing on the ground.  
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Posted by York1 on Saturday, July 4, 2020 1:18 PM

zugmann
I believe there is a pretty big line (like massively huge line - the hugest line!) between providing some kind of actual guidance and dictatorship.  

 

And there are those of us who believe the guidance has been there, regardless of what certain governors and certain cable news outlets believe.

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, July 4, 2020 1:13 PM

I believe there is a pretty big line (like massively huge line - the hugest line!) between providing some kind of actual guidance and dictatorship.  

 And I suspect you do, too.  You're just defending the fandom. Which is fine. 

  

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Posted by York1 on Saturday, July 4, 2020 1:03 PM

We have a federal system of government.

 

It's interesting that many of the same people who, in the past, have called the current occupant of the White House a 'dictator' are upset that he is not acting like one.

I wonder what the governors of certain states would be saying on the cable news if the Administration had dictated how they should handle things in their own states?

 

jcburns
i sure wish we had some leadership in this crisis that we could trust.

Don't you trust your state governor?  Is he or she up for reelection in November?

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Posted by Euclid on Saturday, July 4, 2020 12:58 PM

BaltACD
 
Euclid
In the U.S., how many people are currently being tested for covid 19 each day?

How are these people being selected for testing?

 

Figures I have heard is between 400K & 500K per day - at one time a Doctors prescription was requrired - now in most places just the desire to be tested is required (as well as withstanding the waiting line at the site).

 

Okay thanks.  So say 500,000 people per day are being tested.  In the first week of last March, I understand there were less than 200 test done.   

But today when we test 500,000 per day, what reasons do people have for desiring to be tested?  I would think that if they feel they have symptoms, they might want to be tested.  But if they don't have symptoms, what would be their reason for wanting a test?

As we test 500,000 people today, how many on average have symptoms? 

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Posted by jcburns on Saturday, July 4, 2020 12:47 PM

This information is out there, but because the Administration has chosen not to run an open, coordinated national effort, it has to be patched together from a lot of state agencies, some of which have been told by their governors (Florida, South Dakota) specifically to not release specific information.

People are tested because they're in the hospital or because they've lined up at lots of testing centers scattered across the landscape--they've self selected. For some, it's free (it sure should be). For some, it's not. Some are the nasal swab tests, some are the antibody tests. Complicating things more is that the labs that process these tests are becoming overwhelmed (and when you have to wait several days for results, it doesn't do much good for tracing or treatment.) There are some reports that some of the tests (antibody tests especially) are flawed in their quality control/accuracy.

i sure wish we had some leadership in this crisis that we could trust.

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, July 4, 2020 12:43 PM

Euclid
In the U.S., how many people are currently being tested for covid 19 each day?

How are these people being selected for testing?

Figures I have heard is between 400K & 500K per day - at one time a Doctors prescription was requrired - now in most places just the desire to be tested is required (as well as withstanding the waiting line at the site).

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Posted by Euclid on Saturday, July 4, 2020 11:51 AM

In the U.S., how many people are currently being tested for covid 19 each day?

How are these people being selected for testing?

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, July 4, 2020 11:12 AM

Psychot
Wow.

Only three things will stop the virus - a vaccine (none in sight), herd immunity (need around 60% of to be immune), or the virus mutating into something that doesn't make humans sick.  

"Stay at home" initially flattened the curve, as was intended.  Keeping the curve flattened (or reducing growth to zero) means we have to "stay at home" indefinitely. 

Or at least until November 4th.

Unless you have other information.

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Posted by Psychot on Saturday, July 4, 2020 9:35 AM

tree68

 

 
Psychot
In any case, improvements in treatments don't signify that we should become complacent about the spread of the virus. 

 

We're all going to catch it eventually - tomorrow, next week, next month, next year...

 

Wow.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, July 3, 2020 2:32 PM

Flintlock76

 

 
tree68
We're all going to catch it eventually - tomorrow, next week, next month, next year...

 

Yeah, next thing you know there'll be this scenario playing out on the streets...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcbR1J_4ICg  

 

Where I live, in April, we were asked to stay in our rooms as much as possible, and our meals were brought to us. About a month ago, we were again allowed to eat in the dining room, and gather, keeping our "social" distance. When I went out to go to breakfast this morning, I found a notice that becuse one of the employees had tested positive, we are to stay in  our rooms as much as possible and be sure to wear our masks if we went out. Breakfast and lunch have been brought up to me and the other residents.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, July 3, 2020 8:46 AM

tree68
We're all going to catch it eventually - tomorrow, next week, next month, next year...

Yeah, next thing you know there'll be this scenario playing out on the streets...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcbR1J_4ICg  

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, July 3, 2020 8:36 AM

Psychot
In any case, improvements in treatments don't signify that we should become complacent about the spread of the virus. 

We're all going to catch it eventually - tomorrow, next week, next month, next year...

LarryWhistling
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Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
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Come ride the rails with me!
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Posted by Psychot on Friday, July 3, 2020 8:15 AM

Euclid

 

 
charlie hebdo

1. People,  even the elderly or at risk, are not automatically hospitalized because they test positive.  They are admitted when symptoms are becoming serious. 

2. New deaths are shown daily. All the data you seem unaware of or how to read are there. 

Thus most of your conclusions are faulty,  either because your origiginated premises are incorrect or your attempt at deductive reasoning is badly flawed. 

 

 

 

I have said nothing that disputes the data.  I have only mentioned questioned trends that are implied by the data and questioned the way the trends are being reported, and the regulatory actions that are based on the data.  Maybe you could pick out one thing I said that you feel is wrong, and we could talk about that. 

 

 

The death rate appears to be staying steady *thus far.* Part of that is attributable to the fact that ERs have gained knowledge and improved their ability to treat serious COVID cases. However, it's also the case that deaths lag spikes in infections by a couple of weeks. In any case, improvements in treatments don't signify that we should become complacent about the spread of the virus. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, July 2, 2020 8:46 PM

thanks     was able to read and be greatly relieved    thanks

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Posted by adkrr64 on Thursday, July 2, 2020 8:08 PM

My apologies if this is behind a paywall, but I think this might help inform the conversation about masks:

https://factcheck.thedispatch.com/p/do-masks-make-it-impossible-to-breathe

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Posted by jcburns on Thursday, July 2, 2020 4:31 PM

Euclid, "efficacy" is not something measured in liters per angstrom or some such thing. Here's the efficacy scale for masks:

Makes things worse<---Doesn't help nor hurt--->Makes things better

The science is in. Every doctor or researcher I've read says "Makes things better." Any mask, any material, as long as your nose and mouth are covered. That's it! Asked and answered.

Why don't we let the public health experts work on the "rules" and why don't we work on getting ourselves and our loved ones to do our part as much as we can? 

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, July 2, 2020 4:08 PM

Euclid
 
jcburns

That's not a factual statement. The efficacy of masks--any masks whatsoever as long as the nose and mouth are covered-- compared to no masks has been determined: Masks help. 

I said the efficacy is unknown.  I did not say that there is no efficacy.  There is more that affects the efficacy than just your conditions of the nose and mouth being covered.    Why don't we change the rule to 12 ft. of distancing rather than 6 ft.  That extra 6 ft. would help. 

Why don't we change it to a square mile! [/sarcasm]

Many are not following what the requirements are at present.  Certain states are having their Trump Virus come home to roost.

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, July 2, 2020 3:49 PM

jcburns

That's not a factual statement. The efficacy of masks--any masks whatsoever as long as the nose and mouth are covered-- compared to no masks has been determined: Masks help.

 

I said the efficacy is unknown.  I did not say that there is no efficacy.  There is more that affects the efficacy than just your conditions of the nose and mouth being covered.    Why don't we change the rule to 12 ft. of distancing rather than 6 ft.  That extra 6 ft. would help. 

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Posted by jcburns on Thursday, July 2, 2020 2:59 PM

That's not a factual statement. The efficacy of masks--any masks whatsoever as long as the nose and mouth are covered-- compared to no masks has been determined: Masks help. There are better or worse masks, but that's not the point. Do something that points in the vector of "better," don't sit back with one eyebrow raised and say "we really don't know." It's untrue.

The number of medical experts who who have publically said "masks help" is in the hundreds at this point...and when you say that information is "simply unknown," you're making a political statement. It's not helpful.

So, y'know, just wear it. You'll be helping others as well as yourself.

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, July 2, 2020 2:41 PM

jcburns

During a global pandemic saying stuff like "The efficacy of most masks in use for COVID is a a matter of debate" does not shed light, it adds politically-tinged noise. It comes off as "nobody is going to tell this guy what to do." It's really not a good look for a human being.

Your attitude of "I'm likely to tell you where you can put that mask" is not ruggedly individual American—it's selfish. It's oblivious to the fact that any darn mask helps...yes, there is a huge range of "helps" and "efficacy" but right now the way to improve our global situation is vector based—move toward doing something, even if it makes you a little uncomfortable.

I appreciate your wearing a mask when you do. I respectfully ask you to set aside the whole attitude of "being told" this or that and do what you can—it may not be much, it may not be what you want to do, but please, please act for the greater good. (Deep down, that's a way more American value than "me first" ever was.) 

I don't care how many confirmed cases your county has had. You'd be surprised (especially during a holiday weekend) how many people who may not have been  very careful will make their way through your county. It really helps to think beyond borders here. What you do to help multiplied by a bunch of others can help our neighbors in places where their health systems are being overwhelmed.

Please make this a priority in your life, again, for the common good.

 

 

I would say that there is no point in debating the efficacy of most masks in use for COVID.   The efficacy is simply unknown.  It is not complicated.  Your perception of what amounts to tinged noise is up to you alone. 

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Posted by jcburns on Thursday, July 2, 2020 11:07 AM

During a global pandemic saying stuff like "The efficacy of most masks in use for COVID is a a matter of debate" does not shed light, it adds politically-tinged noise. It comes off as "nobody is going to tell this guy what to do." It's really not a good look for a human being.

Your attitude of "I'm likely to tell you where you can put that mask" is not ruggedly individual American—it's selfish. It's oblivious to the fact that any darn mask helps...yes, there is a huge range of "helps" and "efficacy" but right now the way to improve our global situation is vector based—move toward doing something, even if it makes you a little uncomfortable.

I appreciate your wearing a mask when you do. I respectfully ask you to set aside the whole attitude of "being told" this or that and do what you can—it may not be much, it may not be what you want to do, but please, please act for the greater good. (Deep down, that's a way more American value than "me first" ever was.) 

I don't care how many confirmed cases your county has had. You'd be surprised (especially during a holiday weekend) how many people who may not have been  very careful will make their way through your county. It really helps to think beyond borders here. What you do to help multiplied by a bunch of others can help our neighbors in places where their health systems are being overwhelmed.

Please make this a priority in your life, again, for the common good.

 

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, July 2, 2020 11:04 AM

jcburns

I wasn't judging what you were or were not doing in terms of precautions. I was I guess asserting that questions without factual basis are one of the prime generators of "political noise."

"Questions are a good thing"—I'm pro-question, but I guess the more I see you questioning reality, established science, or established facts (like the death numbers being out there), the more I think you're just involved in a mental exercise.

Why don't you show me what question that I have asked without factual basis?  I have no idea what that means.  My questions are indeed based on facts.  All they lack are answers.  That is why I ask a question. 

So please cite a specific question that I have asked that is asked with a factual basis.  I want to know what you mean.   

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, July 2, 2020 10:48 AM

jcburns
Yep, they are. Take precautions please. Be safe, please. For all of us.

It's amazing it took a global pandemic for many to realize that many people are dirty hogs.  Now that our state has relaxed some requirements - the stores are going back to the old (read: fewer employees needed) ways.  Even simple stuff like sanitizing carts, providing hand sanitizer stations, or pre-packaging bakery items has fallen off the wayside.  I'd rather pay a few extra cents for my donut/muffin to have its own little plastic case than to take one that any booger-picker can feel up for the joy of it.  People are nasty.  

  

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Posted by jcburns on Thursday, July 2, 2020 10:36 AM

I wasn't judging what you were or were not doing in terms of precautions. I was I guess asserting that questions without factual basis are one of the prime generators of "political noise."

"Questions are a good thing"—I'm pro-question, but I guess the more I see you questioning reality, established science, or established facts (like the death numbers being out there), the more I think you're just involved in a mental exercise.

Maybe that's what you need to get through this, but please remember, we can actually see what you type! Looking at the forest, you seem to be asking "are those really leaves? Are those trees at all?" 

Yep, they are. Take precautions please. Be safe, please. For all of us.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, July 2, 2020 10:19 AM

JCBurns: I agree!!  That *common good*  *the common weal* *commonwealth* *village or town commons*  idea is fundamental to a functioning,  decent society.  Where it got lost in a morass of emphasis on the individual is a mystery we could speculate upon,  but better to revive it. 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, July 2, 2020 10:13 AM

Euclid

 

 
charlie hebdo

1. People,  even the elderly or at risk, are not automatically hospitalized because they test positive.  They are admitted when symptoms are becoming serious. 

2. New deaths are shown daily. All the data you seem unaware of or how to read are there. 

Thus most of your conclusions are faulty,  either because your origiginated premises are incorrect or your attempt at deductive reasoning is badly flawed. 

 

 

 

I have said nothing that disputes the data.  I have only mentioned questioned trends that are implied by the data and questioned the way the trends are being reported, and the regulatory actions that are based on the data.  Maybe you could pick out one thing I said that you feel is wrong, and we could talk about that. 

 

 

I did that.  Read what I actually said in response to your prior post instead of merely surmising what others say based on what is in your head. 

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