New Orleans used to be criss-crossed with streetcars.
In the 1960s, most were removed, with just the St. Charles line operating.
In the 1980s, a riverfront line was added for tourists.
However, in the past 15 years, quite a few miles of streetcars have been rebuilt. They are slow, and often carry a large number of tourists, but they also carry a good share of commuters.
Some people were hoping the Desire Streetcar line would also be rebuilt, but that is unlikely. Its route down Bourbon and Royal streets is just too crowded with pedestrians to get a streetcar through. Those streets are often closed to vehicles.
Edit: Sorry for posting this here. I was glancing through the posts and wanted to post this on the transit thread. I don't know if it can be moved or not.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Are you implying 5 hours wasn't sufficient time for people to do something they new was coming at least a day or two before? Yes, speculation in the news media isn't concrete proof something is going to happen, but what exactly did people have to plan for that 5 hours notice wasn't enough?
Are you implying 5 hours wasn't sufficient time for people to do something they new was coming at least a day or two before? Yes, speculation in the news media isn't concrete proof something is going to happen, but what exactly did people have to plan for that 5 hours notice wasn't enough?
First off is winding things up at work. Second is that most of California was in good shape at the time, with the worst parts being much better than either NYC or NOLA and social distancing orders were already in place. Third part is that CA should have required quarantine for anyone entering the state from NYC or NOLA as Texas did soon after.
The rumors about shutdown was the CCP disinformation being spread on the invocation of the Stafford act the week before.
Some aspects of the shutdown don't make a lot of sense, specifically the ones that discourage outdoor activities, especially on a warm sunny day (the virus does not do well with UV exposure).
Erik_MagSome aspects of the shutdown don't make a lot of sense, specifically the ones that discourage outdoor activities, especially on a warm sunny day (the virus does not do well with UV exposure).
Indeed. You see a lot of "please stay in your house!" floating around, when it should just be "stay home." And even that isn't accurate. Get outside for a walk or work in your yard. Social distancing is still a thing.
On the other hand, I'm seeing that Sweden didn't embrace any of that. As a result, the country is developing "herd immunity," which will allow them to resume a reasonably normal life well before anyone else.
Studies in California are indicating that from 50 to 85 times as many people have experienced COVID19 as has been thought, based on the existance of antibodies in their systems. And several instances where comprehensive testing was done have shown that upwards of 60% of those testing positive for the virus exhibit no symptoms...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68Studies in California are indicating that from 50 to 85 times as many people have experienced COVID19 as has been thought, based on the existance of antibodies in their systems. And several instances where comprehensive testing was done have shown that upwards of 60% of those testing positive for the virus exhibit no symptoms...
Lots of practicing homosexuals never got AIDS, either.
And lots of kids playing with matches are happily alive, too.
It wouldn't matter if the anticipated 98% of the population DID acquire their immunity after their (CDC-described, if anyone cares where I got the analogy) "bad, bad cold". It's the 2%, which works out to a much higher absolute number of people, and a much higher 'number' of human cares and interactions, that we need to have concern for. (And with the current combination of slipshod non-caring coupled with feel-good overexaggeration, that number probably is closer to the 4% than 2% by the time it's 'over' (and we all have symptom immunity one way or t'other).
I would note that SIP/SD is effective precisely because it pushes the 'inevitable immunity time' -- of which that relatively silly 'herd immunity' idea is a part -- 'out' rather than 'down' -- it is only feebly eating away at the numbers that fuel the differential equations for outbreak, and we shouldn't be surprised to see the kinetics accelerate nearly at the rate they did if those artificial 'protections' are relaxed.
What is really necessary is to have some combination of good social practice/PPE coupled with segregation for those demonstrably at risk. Consider this:
Serological testing for the 'right' ratios of Igs over time (blood-glucose-meter-like 'stick' when refined)
Cheap and unintrusive viral-RNA or particle testing (nasopharyngeal)
Active dereferenced tracking of outbreaks via data fusion (determines where ongoing resources to help the sick get allocated, and palliative medications get sent)
PROPER social parameters (e.g. no direct talking or heavy breathing-through-the-mouth around others; wearing a proper mask that absorbs moisture and blows down exhalation to effective ab/adsorption or 'plating out' away from public contact surfaces) combined with segregation of 'those at risk' until they can be tested for actual ARDS overreaction propensity;
Continued 'adaptive privilege' for those over 50, perhaps progressive as you get higher up. This includes specific new precautions and regulations for nursing homes in particular, but also 'social distancing' by group and amenity when large-group events come back. Apply the precautions to the people who need them; treat the outliers who 'unexpectedly' have a worse time, or complications, effectively; THEN let the rest get back to work with appropriate oversight.
I do think keeping travel restrictions in and out of regions where outbreaks are occurring or noted makes sense. The problem is how to do it without creating the equivalent of California Okie patrols. People like Newsom are, to date, nearly utterly clueless about how one might actually do this sort of thing effectively.
Oh yes: subways. Most of the issue is people packed in cheek-by-jowl exhaling particles and spreading fomites from hands that have been, for example, holding stuff on which victims have exhaled, or poking their phones. You fix this several ways.
(As a default -- recommend that people wear specific outer clothing that either does not support viral activation or that has been treated with 'virucidal' or virustatic material, and sanitize areas of contact with hard surfaces when practical)
Everyone on a subway needs to be properly masked -- against exhalation, not inhalation. They should have some way to sanitize hands before boarding, and then again when leaving the station ... and there shouldn't be long lines to a couple of pathetic pump dispensers that run out before you get there. Wipe dispensers with portion control, perhaps, an analogue of what's in supermarkets for cart handles ... no one can take more than 'their share'; no one can stockpile; no one can take a bunch for scalping later. This to be used WHETHER OR NOT HANDS ARE GLOVED.
Extend the 'one finger' provision on smartphone use to all travel, not just driving automobiles. And require handsfree microphones to work either 'inside' or with masks and bandannas.
NOW you're at a point where periodic 'maintenance' with portable UV lights brought aboard the cars periodically, and anti-film wipedown or spray of stainless surfaces, begins to be workable.
Won't prevent all cases, of course, and many 'at risk' will still not be wholly safe riding the subways. Personally I'd extend them the privilege of paratransit, perhaps via subsidy of car services. Together with enhanced access to concierge or delivery service provided by 'those with better immunity' or those who have demonstrably recovered to asymptomaticity/low communicable shed.
Before the current Covid-19 pandemic - Subways and other forns of mass transportation have operated without major health concerns for well over 100 years. Covid-19 will not last forever. Mass transportation will continue to operate over the next 100 years or more.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I disagree. This will change things dramatically. The generations younger than us won't tolerate it. Homeless live on the darn trains.
I see this as a huge problem. OH&S issue, right to refuse, all that.
Sea change ... different locations away from cities, more work at home in a more structured way with infrastructure and support from the employer.
BaltACD Before the current Covid-19 pandemic - Subways and other forns of mass transportation have operated without major health concerns for well over 100 years. Covid-19 will not last forever. Mass transportation will continue to operate over the next 100 years or more.
101 years, NOT well over 100 years. During the 1918 flu outbreak, the New York public health department got businesses to stagger their working hours to reduce crowding on subways and other forms of transit. Of course this was when the NY public health department was top of the line - the role of DNA was discovered by a department employee who deserved a Nobel Prize for his work. The current department was too busy being woke to see what worked in the past.
Then again, any entity that hosts large crowds (sports, amusement parks, etc) will be having some rough times in the next year or so.
Furure of railroad passenger and subway
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Erik_Mag BaltACD Before the current Covid-19 pandemic - Subways and other forns of mass transportation have operated without major health concerns for well over 100 years. Covid-19 will not last forever. Mass transportation will continue to operate over the next 100 years or more. 101 years, NOT well over 100 years. During the 1918 flu outbreak, the New York public health department got businesses to stagger their working hours to reduce crowding on subways and other forms of transit. Of course this was when the NY public health department was top of the line - the role of DNA was discovered by a department employee who deserved a Nobel Prize for his work. The current department was too busy being woke to see what worked in the past. Then again, any entity that hosts large crowds (sports, amusement parks, etc) will be having some rough times in the next year or so.
New York subways began operation in 1904 - well before the Spanish Flu of 1918 and for the past 101 years after the Spanish Flu. After this is over, and it will end, the large crowds to the various aspects of human habitation of the 3rd rock from the Sun will return.
Several years ago someone, I don't remember who, linked a magazine article to the Forum written by some young millenial who for some reason couldn't get an Uber ride and had to ride the subway with "Those people!"
She wasn't worried about catching anything, it was just being on the subway with "Them." She didn't specify who "They" were, probably anyone who wasn't like her crowd.
Oh dearie me. I wonder if she still lives in the City and what she's doing with the coronavirus goin' around. Probably having another meltdown.
tree68Studies in California are indicating that from 50 to 85 times as many people have experienced COVID19 as has been thought, based on the existance of antibodies in their systems.
Those 2 studies still only showed that about 4% to 5% of the general population had the antibodies.
In a New York Covid antibody study reported today: NY City 21%, suburbs 12%-17%, upstate 4%.
Sweden is relying on voluntary social distancing, which 9 out of 10 people are observing. They also banned gatherings of more than 50 people. They also have the highest Covid death rate per capita in Scandinavia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52395866
NYC homeless have camped out on the subways en masse. Criminals let out from Rikers are living on the subway. Crime is up even though ridership is way down.
The subways are serving as the overflow capacity of the shelter system.
The subways are the essence of everything that is NYC and it is what facilitates business, commerce and social life.
Who in their right mind would take the subway. Even if you clean out the homeless and the criminals people will always remember Covid and anyone that so much as blinks wrong will cause suspicion fear and even panic.
Whole new ball game in the future. They are done.
MidlandMikeThose 2 studies still only showed that about 4% to 5% of the general population had the antibodies.
That's still significantly higher than the number of people who have tested positive.
tree68That's still significantly higher than the number of people who have tested positive.
And, more significantly, ridiculously short of the number assuring a reasonable change in subsequent-outbreak kinetics when SIP/SD restrictions are relaxed ...
In testing people to find what percentage of the general population has antibodies, how are those people selected for testing?
Miningman NYC homeless have camped out on the subways en masse. Criminals let out from Rikers are living on the subway. Crime is up even though ridership is way down. The subways are serving as the overflow capacity of the shelter system. The subways are the essence of everything that is NYC and it is what facilitates business, commerce and social life. Who in their right mind would take the subway. Even if you clean out the homeless and the criminals people will always remember Covid and anyone that so much as blinks wrong will cause suspicion fear and even panic. Whole new ball game in the future. They are done.
Apparently laws are not being enforced:
https://nypost.com/2020/04/28/video-shows-how-extensive-nyc-subway-homeless-problem-is/
Euclid In testing people to find what percentage of the general population has antibodies, how are those people selected for testing?
The Stamford study was reportedly randomized. Not sure on the LA study, nor the criteria for selecting the areas that were tested in NY.
tree68 Euclid In testing people to find what percentage of the general population has antibodies, how are those people selected for testing? The Stamford study was reportedly randomized. Not sure on the LA study, nor the criteria for selecting the areas that were tested in NY.
I have not heard of people being subject to a random and arbitrary process requiring them to be tested. I would think that if that were the case, some would refuse, and so we would be hearing a little about the process.
EuclidI have not heard of people being subject to a random and arbitrary process requiring them to be tested. I would think that if that were the case, some would refuse, and so we would be hearing a little about the process.
I doubt anyone was forced to participate. More like a "man on the street interview" I would imagine. And I have no doubt that some folks did refuse to participate.
Last I heard, the study had not been peer reviewed, and thus not published as such. The researchers apparently felt that their findings were significant to let the cat out of the bag.
They did characterize their findings as showing that 50 to 85 times as many as previously thought had been infected and thus developed the antibodies.
This is as opposed to the USS Roosevelt and Boston homeless shelter findings, where 100% of the subjects concerned were tested. Those weren't studies, as such, but both found that upwards of 50-60% of those testing positive were asymptomatic.
Given the limited testing that has occurred even now (many places still won't test unless you are symptomatic), that finding again indicates that many more people have been exposed to the virus that was previously thought.
Then you add the significant number of people who experienced COVID-type symptoms before testing was occurring and you've got numbers that begin to eclipse the confirmed cases.
All this dancing and speculation don't convince me one bit that the essential coefficients in the outbreak-propagation models have changed much, or should be changed much.
In any case, relating back to the topic of this thread, one way or another either more than 90% of Americans will have acquired effective 'humoral immunity' by around the end of the year, or the economy will have so effectively crashed that no one can really predict what characteristics it will have (e.g., experience a singularity). Either way you can expect that in some reasonably determinate time nearly everyone who has to ride a subway will no longer be symptomatic -- and as a couple of posters have indicated, within a few years considerations of COVID-19 will seem as quaint as 'no spitting' signs in the subway were in the early Sixties.
Oh yeah? " nothing to see here folks, get in and enjoy the ride".
As previously noted the subway car is the complete opposite of social distancing.
So Overmod is claiming social distancing will be waved in the future by a compliant public and also out of necessity . Likely so in some cases, people that know each other at least somewhat, like in a pie sale at the local Imperial Order Daughters of the Empire or whatever the equivalent is Stateside.
Millenials, Gen X and many above them and their parents are notorious snowflakes. They are not hardened trained Marines that will abide regardless. This outbreak will not be forgotten anytime soon aided by a trigger happy and over excited media and social network. It will not fade.
This wariness will apply even more so in New York City and the subway system. Someone pointed out they make good mushroom farms. Also that's a lot of real estate, a permanent place for things you want out of sight. Like the homeless , criminals, vehicles , and a whole new opportunity for commerce. ( Aside... the beginnings of the Morlocks?...never mind.)
Little electric 2 passenger bubble Uber cars whisking people's to and from work and events, computer controlled, hundreds of thousands of them flowing like electrons. More work from home , with company paid for work area, studio, visual capability, software support. This for everything from school to Goldman Sachs and all in between.
It will come and soon because it will be necessary to do so.
At some point in time either the herd will become immune or we will be part of a mass extinction of homo sapeins.
Miningman Oh yeah? " nothing to see here folks, get in and enjoy the ride". As previously noted the subway car is the complete opposite of social distancing. So Overmod is claiming social distancing will be waved in the future by a compliant public and also out of necessity . Likely so in some cases, people that know each other at least somewhat, like in a pie sale at the local Imperial Order Daughters of the Empire or whatever the equivalent is Stateside. Millenials, Gen X and many above them and their parents are notorious snowflakes. They are not hardened trained Marines that will abide regardless. This outbreak will not be forgotten anytime soon aided by a trigger happy and over excited media and social network. It will not fade. This wariness will apply even more so in New York City and the subway system. Someone pointed out they make good mushroom farms. Also that's a lot of real estate, a permanent place for things you want out of sight. Like the homeless , criminals, vehicles , and a whole new opportunity for commerce. ( Aside... the beginnings of the Morlocks?...never mind.) Little electric 2 passenger bubble Uber cars whisking people's to and from work and events, computer controlled, hundreds of thousands of them flowing like electrons. More work from home , with company paid for work area, studio, visual capability, software support. This for everything from school to Goldman Sachs and all in between. It will come and soon because it will be necessary to do so.
As reported in today's NewsWire, the subway system will be shut down every late night for all cars to be cleaned. Homeless will have to find someplace else.
It has already been shown that millenials favor public transit over owning cars. NY can't accomodate more cars, or auto-bubbles. While some office workers may work occasionally from home, New York and other financial nodes exist to bring decission makers together, and that has not changed thru prior pandemics.
Thanks Midland Mike.. so there's the other side of it. Saw the subways are shut down now at night and the homeless are somehow removed...problem is they come right back when the trains run again. Definitely a serious ongoing problem.
We shall see how the response to riding the subways will be over the next few years. I just cannot see it going back to the way it was and is now.
I'll bet NYC's sorry they got rid of the elevateds now!
Operating in the open air with plenty of sunlight, probably easier to clean and disinfect too.
They didn't listen to Dave Klepper, and now they're regretting it!
"...hardened trained Marines." Oh shucks, thanks Miningman! Now I'm blushing!
You know, there is a saying:
"Hard times make hard men. Hard men make good times. Good times make soft men. Soft men make hard times." Interesting variation on "The Circle of Life," don't you think?
Flintlock says -- " "Hard times make hard men. Hard men make good times. Good times make soft men. Soft men make hard times." Interesting variation on "The Circle of Life," don't you think?
Good one! Going to put that in my Intro
Mining course.
MiningmanSo Overmod is claiming social distancing will be waived in the future by a compliant public and also out of necessity .
Huh? I'm going to go all Euclid on this one.
What I said, or at least closer to what I meant to say and thought I was saying, was that social distancing (and shelter-in-place mandates) will be largely waived when the public has substantially acquired freedom from symptoms of infection after having gotten the disease ... and those who have died during that process are dead. I have seen little that indicates relaxing SIP/SD will not put us substantially right back where potential spread threatened until a very great more people show effective antibody titers than anything but speculation indicates. We might offset the rough end-of-the-year estimates by the number of months the various economy-killing mandates have kept people away from infection.
But any effective vaccine for the general population is at least 2 years off, while the kinetics for full acquired immunity through disease remain in the range of 'about a year'. That is tantamount to an iron law of sorts. It is half the issue.
The other half is that like it or not we won't be able to keep up anything like current SIP arrangements, or even a meaningful degree of at-work enforced 6' distancing, and get back to a recognizable economy. Even spending trillions we don't have on transient support programs that build little effective wealth and even less security. I've been carefully looking for concerted plans that could work. So far I haven't seen any other than those with one sort of abominable characteristic or another. I wouldn't trust either the current adminstration or the current House with designing a coherent and workable fair economy if their lives and careers depended upon it -- so we have little option but to get toward 'normalcy' with reasonable despatch.
And doing so will likely start accelerating the iron law toward 'effective acquired humoral immunity for survivors' within that year or so ... and I don't expect survivors to Never Forget The Boomers Who Died once they've been in the ground or up the stack a few years.
They are hoping for a vaccine by January in Operation Warp Speed.
Google it for details.
If you expect people to just obligingly board on packed subways just because they have been told they are all clear I say you're badly mistaken. People still cough, sneeze, lots of bizzare looking folks, lots and lots of suspicion. I would not ride, and object on OH&S issues. It's ridiculous to think the folks will just happily resume as if all those people around them are one and the same .
I wouldn't let my daughters go either. Especially in NYC. Or Toronto.
Also don't think that the haters, kooks, extremists and power hungry madmen haven't raised an eyebrow and are working deligently on the next 'outbreak' . Seems everyone has noticed how easy it is to bring down an economy. Even a false flag and a good scare might do. Of course it would.
Now I could be well wrong but subway riders worldwide are going to be less and less. Regardless of explanations, even science, solid assurances the human condition will reject subways in large part.
Nothing will be the same. Something else will have to be.
Miningman, did you say, "two passenger bubbles?" Makes me think of Isetta cars and remember the Messerschmitt Tiger? Those along with Heinkels, Trojans and Dorniers were all called bubble cars back in the 50s. Or Kabinenroller, aka cabin scooters. It would be neat to see them back again but for the two-stroke stink they put out.
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