Out walking tonight, I was passed by a Dakota & Iowa train that runs parallel to a popular bike trail. The train was going usual track speed of maybe 15-20 mph. After it passed, a BNSF hi-rail pickup came zooming up behind it. When it caught up, it slowed to match the speed, keeping back about 100 yards. Why run a high-rail pickup behind a train?Does that cause issues with the signaling to have two machines that close together on the tracks?Wouldn't it be pretty tough for the high-rail pickup to get accross the crossings? Around here, they yield to the traffic. One the train passes it would be a while before the traffic thins.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Under normal circumstance the rules prohibit running hi-rails ahead of trains in the same track segments. The rules permit operating hi-rails BEHIND trains, where the trains have authority to operate in a SINGLE DIRECTION only.
Hi-rail equipment puts much less stress on the track structure and is normally limited to 40 MPH by rule. (Your Rule Book may vary).
Most hi-rail vehicles are insulated electrically from the track and do not operate signals or crossing protection. Hi-railers must flag themselves across road crossing.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Why would a high-railer be following a train?
Murphy Siding Why would a high-railer be following a train?
Track inspector, signal maintenance, pretty much the same reasons they'd be on the track if there wasn't a train ahead of them.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Murphy SidingWhy would a high-railer be following a train?
MofW personnel have track inspections they are REQUIRED to make on a periodic basis.
To get Authority from the Train Dispatcher to occupy the track the MofW person will communicate with the Train Dispatcher and tell him the track segment he wants to occupy and inspect. If the MofW person is a Z and tells the Train Dispatcher he wants to inspect between Z & A, the Train Dispatcher will respond - "I can't put you on the track at Z, I have a train running from A to Z; If you want to go to A and you can follow the train."
There are multiple ways to solve problems.
I would guess that is probably safer to be behind instead of in front in case you need to stop and take a closer look. Also watching the movement in front of you may alert for other issues.
When 4114 ran on the UP West near Chicago, a vehicle of some sort (Hi-railer?) preceded it on the same track by about 10 minutes.
10 minutes is a lot more than 300 feet at any reasonable speed.
My experience, from memory, is that there is a lag between the end of the trains crossing the grade-crossing and the upward movemenet of the crossing gates. If this is true, then the highrailer should be able to squeek by without having to stop and flag. Is this the case?
daveklepperIf this is true, then the highrailer should be able to squeek by without having to stop and flag. Is this the case?
Not really a case of stopping and flagging - but waiting until traffic is clear enough so they sneak across.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
And then increase speed to restore a 300-feet distance? What about crossings with heavy and continuous traffice? Do they ever close the gap to say 80 feet just to get across the crossing without stopping?
A high-railer can come to a full stop much faster than a train, so this should be able to be done safely.
daveklepperAnd then increase speed to restore a 300-feet distance? What about crossings with heavy and continuous traffice? Do they ever close the gap to say 80 feet just to get across the crossing without stopping? A high-railer can come to a full stop much faster than a train, so this should be able to be done safely.
How much job insurance have you bought?
BaltACD daveklepper And then increase speed to restore a 300-feet distance? What about crossings with heavy and continuous traffice? Do they ever close the gap to say 80 feet just to get across the crossing without stopping? A high-railer can come to a full stop much faster than a train, so this should be able to be done safely. How much job insurance have you bought?
daveklepper And then increase speed to restore a 300-feet distance? What about crossings with heavy and continuous traffice? Do they ever close the gap to say 80 feet just to get across the crossing without stopping? A high-railer can come to a full stop much faster than a train, so this should be able to be done safely.
We used to have a Foreman who liked to drive the hi-rail that way. A few time when operating light engine I looked back in the mirror to see him right on the drawbar. Crossing or no crossing.
He is retired now, and I suspect he learned to operate track units back when speeders were in use and paper train lineups conveyed operating authority.
I can't find it right now, but I recall reading a story about the 'intricacies' of speeder operation behind trains from that era. Apparently if you got very close to the tail end of the train the speeder would get into its slipsteam, and have little to no air resistance. This meant that you could go as fast as the train. But you had to stay very close, to get over power switches before the Dispatcher lined them behind the train.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude BaltACD daveklepper And then increase speed to restore a 300-feet distance? What about crossings with heavy and continuous traffice? Do they ever close the gap to say 80 feet just to get across the crossing without stopping? A high-railer can come to a full stop much faster than a train, so this should be able to be done safely. How much job insurance have you bought? We used to have a Foreman who liked to drive the hi-rail that way. A few time when operating light engine I looked back in the mirror to see him right on the drawbar. Crossing or no crossing. He is retired now, and I suspect he learned to operate track units back when speeders were in use and paper train lineups conveyed operating authority. I can't find it right now, but I recall reading a story about the 'intricacies' of speeder operation behind trains from that era. Apparently if you got very close to the tail end of the train the speeder would get into its slipsteam, and have little to no air resistance. This meant that you could go as fast as the train. But you had to stay very close, to get over power switches before the Dispatcher lined them behind the train.
SD70DudeWe used to have a Foreman who liked to drive the hi-rail that way. A few time when operating light engine I looked back in the mirror to see him right on the drawbar. Crossing or no crossing. He is retired now, and I suspect he learned to operate track units back when speeders were in use and paper train lineups conveyed operating authority. I can't find it right now, but I recall reading a story about the 'intricacies' of speeder operation behind trains from that era. Apparently if you got very close to the tail end of the train the speeder would get into its slipsteam, and have little to no air resistance. This meant that you could go as fast as the train. But you had to stay very close, to get over power switches before the Dispatcher lined them behind the train.
I operated motor cars (not called speeders then) on Santa Fe's 202 mile speedway between Dodge City and La Junta where with ATS installed ten different trains were authoritized to run 90 MPH; and sometimes a little more when running late.
We used timetables and lineups provided by dispatchers. We were 'protected' by upper quadrant semiphores and motor car detectors installed in the most dangerous areas. We were very careful, never trying for the next setoff because it may be occupied by another motor car; of which there were many others like signalmen, linemen, section gangs and track supervisors. There were no recklus operations like describded in above posts.
I remember the AAR issued safety poster than hung in one depot. It was two guys in their speeder, trying to keep ahead of a speeding train. The caption was what the rider said to the operator, "Have you checked your line-up lately?"
Our MOW or signal people get authority behind trains all the time. Before they can occupy the track, they have to notify the train they are going to be behind that they will be setting on and to have the train acknowledge that they can't back up without first contacting the employee. Contact can be direct, or through the dispatcher if the train is towards the far end of the employee's track authority.
Jeff
Are hi-rail vehicles (when on the track) governed by a Restricted Speed method of operation? In this case, being able to stop within half the distance to the train in case of a sudden stop. Most likely that would be an emergency brake application - how fast would they notice that occurring? - but a derailment could stop the train even quicker. (Wouldn't that be a story: "We were following close but could have stopped in time, except the train derailed and stopped quickly, so then we couldn't stop before we hit the rear car.")
- PDN.
From CSX Book of Rules
(1) rules are cute, but your hi-rail wheel bearings don't last long at those higher speeds.
(2) your side flange walls are not that tall for any kind of speed, if the rail is wet -you're NOT stopping and if its really wet You're NOT going. And then there is the issue of frogs and switch points.
(3) As diningcar probably remembers, even being careful and having a line-up can still result in a crumpled M-5 out in the weeds with all of your worldly belongings scattered to the wind and the Fairmont M-5 operator beat to a pulp.
(4) BNSF had an incident in the last 5 years where a track supervisor rear ended a stationary train (partly due to a medical problem) in Western AZ
mudchicken And then there is the issue of frogs and switch points.
I've run our dump truck hi-rail. The appropriate (ie, where I feel comfortable) speed for switches is creeping. And even then you worry.
What's it like driving a hi-rail truck over a jump-frog*.
* I think I remember that that's what it's called.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of CovingtonWhat's it like driving a hi-rail truck over a jump-frog.
You could probably answer this by thinking of it as a steep-sided, reasonably deep shoulder/sidewall-busting pothole ... in reverse.
I think it would be likely that there would be a sizable sideways tire 'bounce' too, which might enhance flange contact on the opposite side but not enough to cause climb ... this keeping any tendency for tire or suspension bounce to lift the flanged guide wheel(s) on the affected side from causing derailment.
Aren't they called 'self-guarding frogs'?
Paul-over-by-the-Lake and Overmod, you have sprung a new one on me. Can can a"self-guarding frog- be descrobed briefly?
Thank you.
Johnny
Photo of a SMSG = solid manganese self-guarded frog here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cast_frog.jpg
What's not shown - but doesn't matter becasue they're not there anyway - are the guard rails that would be attached to the turnout rails opposite the frog for a 'standard' frog. Here, the raised pieces guide the rim of the wheel, not the flanges as a standard frog and guardrails do.
Do a search for "self-guarded frog" for more photos - some of the better ones are actually models.
What someone was thinking of above is an "jump" or "lift" frog. They're different because the the wheel is lifted so that the flange is up to the same level as the running rail of the through route so the flange can roll across the top of that rail.
Link to a photo and description:
http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2018/02/jump-or-lift-frogs-in-railroad-turnouts.html
You really have to study these to figure them out, unless you can see one in action or an animation.
Related is an "OWLS" = One-Way Low Speed crossing frog (diamond crossing), where one track completely crosses another without the routes joining (which would be a turnout).
The hi-railers seem to give the both ways flange bearing frogs at Deshler a lot of respect.
The trains, however, run over them at speed - 35-40 MPH.
Paul_D_North_JrWhat someone was thinking of above is an "jump" or "lift" frog. They're different because the the wheel is lifted so that the flange is up to the same level as the running rail of the through route so the flange can roll across the top of that rail. Link to a photo and description: http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2018/02/jump-or-lift-frogs-in-railroad-turnouts.html You really have to study these to figure them out, unless you can see one in action or an animation. Related is an "OWLS" = One-Way Low Speed crossing frog (diamond crossing), where one track completely crosses another without the routes joining (which would be a turnout). - PDN.
How does a facing point diverging move happen?
BaltACD Paul_D_North_Jr What someone was thinking of above is an "jump" or "lift" frog. They're different because the the wheel is lifted so that the flange is up to the same level as the running rail of the through route so the flange can roll across the top of that rail. Link to a photo and description: http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2018/02/jump-or-lift-frogs-in-railroad-turnouts.html You really have to study these to figure them out, unless you can see one in action or an animation. Related is an "OWLS" = One-Way Low Speed crossing frog (diamond crossing), where one track completely crosses another without the routes joining (which would be a turnout). - PDN. How does a facing point diverging move happen?
Paul_D_North_Jr What someone was thinking of above is an "jump" or "lift" frog. They're different because the the wheel is lifted so that the flange is up to the same level as the running rail of the through route so the flange can roll across the top of that rail. Link to a photo and description: http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2018/02/jump-or-lift-frogs-in-railroad-turnouts.html You really have to study these to figure them out, unless you can see one in action or an animation. Related is an "OWLS" = One-Way Low Speed crossing frog (diamond crossing), where one track completely crosses another without the routes joining (which would be a turnout). - PDN.
I'm gonna stray off-topic a bit, but since you asked...
The curve closure rail leading from the switch point to the frog is ramped up slightly just before the flangeway gap. The wheel rides (on it's tread) up this ramp and then "jumps" over the flangeway gap.
After the jump, the wheel is in free fall (just like it is for a conventional high-angle frog) until it hits the ball of the straight-route rail. But because it started off higher than that rail, it lands with the flange, not the tread, on the ball of that straight-route rail.
The casting that the wheel encounters after riding over the straight-route rail (on its flange) starts off basically flat, then a groove develops on the field side of that flat surface that gets deeper and deeper. The flange (which is supporting the wheel) runs into that groove and goes lower and lower relative to what will eventually resolve into the ball of the rail. When it gets low enough the wheel tread contacts the ball and the fun is over.
This type of frog has become widespread over the last decade. More recently, railroads have also started deploying "vertical lift switches", which basically do for switch points what flange-bearing designs did for frogs. Google it for more info.
Something else to realize is that the extremely small contact area of a wheel riding on its flange causes relative high rates of wear on the "ramp" surface that the flange rides on (and on the ball of the rail where the flange rides on it, for that matter). Of course the whole idea of a lift frog is that you only use it where tonnage on the diverging route is very low, so this relatively high rate of wear per ton doesn't cause a significant rate of wear per year. But it is one of the issues that has to be dealt with when trying to use flange-bearing technology on a higher-tonnage route.
For yards you can get a "partial flange-bearing frog". This is basically a self-guarded frog with a slightly shallower-than-usal flangeway. For wheels with a very hollow tread, the wheel rides on the flange across the gap; for conical wheels, it rides on the tread and jumps the gap just like a conventional self-guarded frog. The advantage is that by having the worst-profiled wheels ride on their flanges, you remove the very high impacts that result when these wheels jump the gap. By having "normal" wheels ride on the ball of the rail, you slow down the wear rate on the flangeway floor. Of course even if the flangeway does eventually wear, the result is just a deeper flangeway - which just gets you back to a conventional self-guarded frog.
Dan
dpeltier BaltACD Paul_D_North_Jr What someone was thinking of above is an "jump" or "lift" frog. They're different because the the wheel is lifted so that the flange is up to the same level as the running rail of the through route so the flange can roll across the top of that rail. Link to a photo and description: http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2018/02/jump-or-lift-frogs-in-railroad-turnouts.html You really have to study these to figure them out, unless you can see one in action or an animation. Related is an "OWLS" = One-Way Low Speed crossing frog (diamond crossing), where one track completely crosses another without the routes joining (which would be a turnout). - PDN. How does a facing point diverging move happen? I'm gonna stray off-topic a bit, but since you asked... The curve closure rail leading from the switch point to the frog is ramped up slightly just before the flangeway gap. The wheel rides (on it's tread) up this ramp and then "jumps" over the flangeway gap. After the jump, the wheel is in free fall (just like it is for a conventional high-angle frog) until it hits the ball of the straight-route rail. But because it started off higher than that rail, it lands with the flange, not the tread, on the ball of that straight-route rail. The casting that the wheel encounters after riding over the straight-route rail (on its flange) starts off basically flat, then a groove develops on the field side of that flat surface that gets deeper and deeper. The flange (which is supporting the wheel) runs into that groove and goes lower and lower relative to what will eventually resolve into the ball of the rail. When it gets low enough the wheel tread contacts the ball and the fun is over. This type of frog has become widespread over the last decade. More recently, railroads have also started deploying "vertical lift switches", which basically do for switch points what flange-bearing designs did for frogs. Google it for more info. Something else to realize is that the extremely small contact area of a wheel riding on its flange causes relative high rates of wear on the "ramp" surface that the flange rides on (and on the ball of the rail where the flange rides on it, for that matter). Of course the whole idea of a lift frog is that you only use it where tonnage on the diverging route is very low, so this relatively high rate of wear per ton doesn't cause a significant rate of wear per year. But it is one of the issues that has to be dealt with when trying to use flange-bearing technology on a higher-tonnage route. For yards you can get a "partial flange-bearing frog". This is basically a self-guarded frog with a slightly shallower-than-usal flangeway. For wheels with a very hollow tread, the wheel rides on the flange across the gap; for conical wheels, it rides on the tread and jumps the gap just like a conventional self-guarded frog. The advantage is that by having the worst-profiled wheels ride on their flanges, you remove the very high impacts that result when these wheels jump the gap. By having "normal" wheels ride on the ball of the rail, you slow down the wear rate on the flangeway floor. Of course even if the flangeway does eventually wear, the result is just a deeper flangeway - which just gets you back to a conventional self-guarded frog. Dan
See the ramp for the trailing point move - don't see one for a facing point move!
BaltACD dpeltier BaltACD How does a facing point diverging move happen? I'm gonna stray off-topic a bit, but since you asked... The curve closure rail leading from the switch point to the frog is ramped up slightly just before the flangeway gap. The wheel rides (on it's tread) up this ramp and then "jumps" over the flangeway gap. See the ramp for the trailing point move - don't see one for a facing point move!
dpeltier BaltACD How does a facing point diverging move happen? I'm gonna stray off-topic a bit, but since you asked... The curve closure rail leading from the switch point to the frog is ramped up slightly just before the flangeway gap. The wheel rides (on it's tread) up this ramp and then "jumps" over the flangeway gap.
BaltACD How does a facing point diverging move happen?
The closure rail itself is simply ramped up so that the ball of the curve closure rail is slightly higher than the ball of the straight rail by the time it gets to the gap. There's no flange bearing until you get past the gap.
You can see this ramp better in the photo at
http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10670249
Good explanantions, Dan and link to a good photo - thanks!
BaltACD - you have to visualize the operation of these things in 3-D, which can be hard. One thing to realize is that for a diverging move, the support and guidance transitions from the usual wheel tread and flange respectively, to the wheel tread and wheel rim until it crosses the through route rail, then support transitions to the flange and guidance comes from the back of the wheels against the raised wing of the frog in one direction and the guardrail in the other direction. Note that the angles are so shallow that some of these actions are happening simultaneously - the wheel is supported by its tread for a considerable distance after the flange has crossed over the through route rail (3" wheel tread width x No. 10 frog = 30" distance altogether, although at the ends it's pretty miniscule).
It would be useful to have a series of annotated cross-sections depicting this, but I haven't ever seen that. (If I wind up with more time off . . . ).
Thanks, Paul and Dan.
The sign warning of the jump frog certainly will cause wonder in the mind of anyone who knows nothng of railraod frogs.
I think of the story of the new hire trainman who was told by the conductor, after a car had derailed, "Go get a couple of frogs." After too long a period of time, the young man returned, saying, "I couldn't find any frogs; will a couple of toads do?" He had found two toads.
DeggestyThanks, Paul and Dan. The sign warning of the jump frog certainly will cause wonder in the mind of anyone who knows nothng of railraod frogs. I think of the story of the new hire trainman who was told by the conductor, after a car had derailed, "Go get a couple of frogs." After too long a period of time, the young man returned, saying, "I couldn't find any frogs; will a couple of toads do?" He had found two toads.
Back in the day when it was routine for 'butterfly replacers' to be carried on locomotives for jobs that worked industries (where track was less than great). The crews would then claim a 3 hour arbitrary payment for rerailing cars.
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