BaltACD Every continent that has suffered a Europen population invasion has horrific relations with the indigenous populations.
Every continent that has suffered a Europen population invasion has horrific relations with the indigenous populations.
Many protests have participants who aren't there for the cause, but rather simply to raise you-know-what. They are the folks who start breaking windows, stealing stuff, etc. The other protesters may join in, but they aren't causing the criminal goings on.
I would suppose that the protests in question here might be less likely to have that happen, as the protesters are generally a pretty tight group. That's not to say that there are not those within that tight group who are there chiefly to cause trouble, as opposed to supporting the cause.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The cause of the anarchists is to end Canada's fossil fuel extraction industries. And they will use violence because that is how anarchists get things done. Lawless activity and violence scares off industrial investors, and that is how you get rid of the extraction industries.
Miningman Double stacks, tracks set ablaze with train in motion. https://globalnews.ca/video/6598863/tyendinaga-protesters-set-fire-next-to-tracks-as-freight-train-rolls-past-eventually-stops Note the gasoline poured trackside while the train is in motion.
Double stacks, tracks set ablaze with train in motion.
https://globalnews.ca/video/6598863/tyendinaga-protesters-set-fire-next-to-tracks-as-freight-train-rolls-past-eventually-stops
Note the gasoline poured trackside while the train is in motion.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Can anyone tell if that was a full service stop or an emergency one ? If Emergency ------------------ what caused it ?
Murphy SidingWhy would they stop the train? Wouldn't it have been safer for all involved to keep the train moving past the fire?
I think they are concerned that the tracks MAY have been sabotaged in such areas, so it's out of an abundance of caution that they stop? That's what I would be concerned about.
Sort of like when they throw a flaming sack on a front porch and ring the doorbell.
tree68They are the folks who start breaking windows, stealing stuff, etc. The other protesters may join in, but they aren't causing the criminal goings on.
I've always found it curious how often a free flatscreen TV can soothe the aggrieved masses.
Everybody is for protest to get their greviences addressed - unless the protest would affect their everyday life - then it is outrageous civil insurrection and needs to be quashed with massive displays of force.
Remember, the American Revolution grew out of people protesting their greviences, as did the Civil War.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
“There are 50 ships on the Pacific Coast waiting to pick up grain.”
greyhounds “There are 50 ships on the Pacific Coast waiting to pick up grain.” — Canadian Transport Minister Marc Garneau, on the lingering impact of the Canadian rail blockade.
When there was a uptick in Export Coal in the late 1970's (account the OPEC strangulation of oil) at one time there were over 100 vessels waiting to load at the B&O's Curtis Bay Coal Pier (which had the ability to load about 60K tons per day).
There are always 'traffic' conditions to be negotiated at any bulk loading facility for marine cargo.
BaltACD greyhounds “There are 50 ships on the Pacific Coast waiting to pick up grain.” — Canadian Transport Minister Marc Garneau, on the lingering impact of the Canadian rail blockade. When there was a uptick in Export Coal in the late 1970's (account the OPEC strangulation of oil) at one time there were over 100 vessels waiting to load at the B&O's Curtis Bay Coal Pier (which had the ability to load about 60K tons per day). There are always 'traffic' conditions to be negotiated at any bulk loading facility for marine cargo.
Yes this is nothing compared to drivers cutting it close at grade crossings. But even so, I think it may be time to get the Darwin Award ready for these people who build fires on the track to stop trains.
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/rail-disruptions-expected-to-continue-after-new-protest-sites-emerge
Railway Age story starting with more detail on the Teck cancellation, and taking up some of the blockade issues. Contains some likely-to-be-controversial content.
https://www.railwayage.com/regulatory/off-the-rails-bitumen-trains-hold-no-hope-for-alberta-tar-sands/
Murphy Siding Miningman Double stacks, tracks set ablaze with train in motion. https://globalnews.ca/video/6598863/tyendinaga-protesters-set-fire-next-to-tracks-as-freight-train-rolls-past-eventually-stops Note the gasoline poured trackside while the train is in motion. Why would they stop the train? Wouldn't it have been safer for all involved to keep the train moving past the fire?
Why would they stop the train? Wouldn't it have been safer for all involved to keep the train moving past the fire?
My thought exactly. Seems like if anything you might want to speed up.
Those protesters were no rocket scientists. First, if you're going pull this stunt, why not do it ON the tracks, and BEFORE the train gets there, so the crew can see it? I don't understand how the crew even knew that was happening back in their train. (I guess the conductor was hanging out the window looking back?) Secondly, pouring gasoline right by, and on, an active fire?!? Brilliant.
I have a lot of empathy for indigenous peoples. I don't know enough about this particular conflict to have an informed opinion, though. But those protesters in the video are complete imbeciles. And I'm not sure the railroad is an appropriate target.
What a mess. Very sad in so many ways.
Lithonia OperatorI have a lot of empathy for indigenous peoples. I don't know enough about this particular conflict to have an informed opinion, though. But those protesters in the video are complete imbeciles. And I'm not sure the railroad is an appropriate target.
This goes back to my idea that some protestors are in it to support the cause, but some are there simply to foment mayhem. These clowns appear to be the latter.
I doubt that the crew stopped the train because of the fire. They may not have even seen it because they would have been well past before the fire got going. So I would assume that the stop was part of normal operations. The main question is, what were the protesters expecting to happen as a result of the fire?
And also, why did they start the fire so late, rather than before the train got so close that the crew would be past before the fire got going? I suppose they did not have enough fuel for a prolonged fire and the train snuck up on them before they had a chance to get the fire going. I suspect their intent was to start a fire on the track in order to flag down an approaching train, but they were too late to accomplish that goal. Yet they continued in desperation with the plan to start the fire without any clear way of having the fire stop the train.
As they are starting the fire, the person speaking in the video says: “One word or two, we’re adamant that no train should pass.”
Then the second video in the same link begins with the same protesters at the same location attempting to stop a second train by standing in front of it and throwing rocks at it as it approaches.
In further developments, someone also placed a vehical on the track and set it afire. Somewhere, there is a photo of the car on the track and emitting some smoke after the fire had either burned out or was extinguished.
This article linked by Overmod above, sheds some new light on the oil by rail controversy, which is also one of the grievances at issue with these protests. From the article:
The expensive tank car replacement was a pointless distraction for U.S. and Canadian governments lacking sufficient political cojones to correct the real reason trains and people were being incinerated. Despite their convenient vilification, not even DOT-111 tank cars “explode” on their own, and recent incidents demonstrate beyond question that an extra one-sixteenth-inch of steel cannot contain the chain-reaction violence of a derailing oil train. To paraphrase James Carville, “It’s the contents, stupid.”
*****************************************************
The recent withdrawal of the proposal to build the oil sands mine is said to be in part, due to the fact that Canada does not have sufficient rail transportation ability to service the expansion of the proposed oil sands mining. Expanding that capacity is seen as being too difficult in the face of the current political protest opposition.
Following the Lac Megantic disaster, there was a proposed solution to such explosive fires by replacing the DOT-111 tank cars with stronger DOT-117 series. We had some discussions about this at the time, and I questioned how much of an improvement the upgrade would provide.
The general implication at that time was that the upgrade would solve the problem by making the new tank cars unable to breach during a high speed derailment. We had some discussion about what constitutes “high speed” in the common reference to “high speed derailment.” There was the premise put forth that the tank car upgrade would not be sufficient to prevent breaching in high speed derailments. I recall that there was a conclusion that “high speed derailments” can include speeds as low as 15-20 mph.
So altogether, it seemed that the new stronger tank cars would not be sufficient to prevent breaching in derailments of mainline trains moving around 40 mph. According to this article that conclusion has been validated by experience with the new tank cars. It says that the increased tank car wall thickness is not enough to prevent the tanks from getting ripped open in the chaos of incredible forces that come to bear when a mile-long freight train gets off the rails at 40 mph.
The general conclusion is that oil trains cannot be made sufficiently damage proof in the case of a derailment. Adding sufficient strength also adds weight, greatly reduces the load capacity. The lower capacity lowers haul production, and the extra strength also raises the cost of the tank car. In the background, there is also the issue of oil sloshing in the tank cars and somehow interfering with ride quality, slack, and braking. This effect has been widely rejected as impossible, but I am beginning to think there may be something to it. Maybe it affects the ride, or maybe it influences the way the tank cars pile up.
As I outlined on the first page of this thread, but no one seems to have noticed, Teck's cancellation of the Frontier project was far from solely due to environmental and protester considerations. Another large, open-pit oilsands mine is simply not a sound economic investment at current world oil prices.
To paraphrase another article that I now can't find, the timing of Teck's cancellation announcement has allowed them to seem like the adult in a room full of children (protesters and politicians of all stripes), while getting out of a project that they weren't going to build anyway.
I am finding it rather hard to take David Thomas' musings seriously, considering his demonstrated and rather emotional bias against oil trains and the Alberta "Tar Sands".
He is correct that diluted bitumen burns just like other flammable liquids in a derailment, and that it is the thin diluent that initially ignites. But he ignores the potential of 100% bitumen (zero diluent) being shipped in tank cars with steam heat coils, just like heavy fuel oil or liquid sulphur (which solidifies in the tank car during long trips). Some companies are already shipping bitumen in this manner, though much still moves in diluted form in tank cars.
Despite the current lower world price of all forms of oil, the fact is that there is still significant demand for the type of heavy crude that is produced in Alberta and Saskatchewan. The continuing profitable operation of existing large oilsands facilities and the increase in oil-by-rail shipments over the past year is proof of that.
While it has (thankfully) fallen from the headlines, the Trans-Mountain pipeline expansion project is now under construction.
As for the derailments, both CP and CN should increase the frequency of ultrasonic rail inspections and test car trips to identify bad spots before they cause derailments. And implement wayside inspection systems capable of scanning wheels and axles for defects in the same manner.
Another good start would be actually changing flat wheels that are flagged by the existing impact detectors, before they cause real trouble.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
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SD70DudeAs I outlined on the first page of this thread, but no one seems to have noticed, Teck's cancellation of the Frontier project was far from solely due to environmental and protester considerations. Another large, open-pit oilsands mine is simply not a sound economic investment at current world oil prices.
Even the story I linked indicates that the slowdown based on the 'protests' was just the straw that broke the camel's back -- albeit a compelling one from a capitalist funds-allocation perspective. It's a decision made purely on well-honed cost vs. return perspective, net of a great many (doubtless well-tracked and well-modeled, if 'selectively' interpreted) variables, and a great many less-well-predictable uncertainties and risks, and a highly restrained range of profitability.
I watched very carefully all the years the tar and oil sands were deemed of borderline profitability. As someone always interested in fuel synthesis of various kinds, much of it either solid or from solid or high-carbon-but-cheap feedstock, I have followed the conditions permitting cost-effective (or subsidized "energy independence" or whatever) production of bitumen, whether temporarily diluted for extraction or transport. The sands will continue to be there, whether Teck uses them now or waits, and much of the research they have done will at least theoretically be there if in a renewable-oriented world they decide to pursue some alternative use for the stuff.
Teck would certainly try to get it spun that way, anyway. No sense wasting any potential avenue for effective PR, especially when it's becoming so easy and cheap to get the manipulations to work. The best part of all is that it is probably nominally true. (What is left out of the PR is the oh-my-precious-gold aspect of the thousands of millions apparently 'thrown down a hole' in things that will now have to be mostly or wholly 'written off' that go with cancelling rather than postponing the project. Watch for claims of damage, interference, etc. to the various First Nations that have permitted the blockades to occur on their territory... and to a government that has failed to interdict them.
He is correct that diluted bitumen burns just like other flammable liquids in a derailment, and that it is the thin diluent that initially ignites. But he ignores the potential of 100% bitumen (zero diluent) being shipped in tank cars with steam heat coils, just like heavy fuel oil or liquid sulphur (which solidifies in the tank car during long trips).
There are a number of discussions about this -- including some that concern the American response to the 'fireball' issues of Bakken and Eagle Ford crude via 'degassing', a response which very effectively seems to have put paid to the whole 'Blast Zone' concern and slew of exploding oil trains here. If I recall correctly, it is both difficult and expensive to reheat the bitumen in transport and to move it effectively in and out of the cars, especially compared to the infrastructure and procedures necessary for dilbit. I would argue (but please don't make me work out the precise chemistry and physics) that an intermediate state of dilution with a more selective 'degassed' diluent, to make something about the effective density of, say, a coal slurry (but organic rather than using a nonpolar or surfactant solvent) would represent a generally preferable approach.
There are effective forms of nanoinsulation and heater tapes that would facilitate transporting only slightly-diluted bitumen -- see the revival of the sodium-sulfur battery or the coincident use of certain hydrides as hydrogen carriers for some of the approaches -- but these are still relatively expensive to use for a substance that essentially contaminates the inside of the cars in a manner that cost-effectively restricts them only to that service. I think you can see that the economics for this at 'full-scale' production are more than a little dubious compared to better dilution or even functional emulsification.
But there is a difference between that and what Teck was engaged in, just as there's a difference in cost of production between stripper wells and new field development. I'd suspect a political shift toward lower nonrenewable carbon would have most of its effect on the profitability of tar/oil sands first, especially if the 'overhead' cost of heating the bitumen for undiluted transportation (either by the usual or by 'more carbon-neutral' means) is employed.
I have read about the potential metallurgical use of some of this material but haven't found any real definitive description. Would be highly interested to know more.
As for the derailments, both CP and CN should increase the frequency of ultrasonic rail inspections and test car trips to identify bad spots before they cause derailments.
Bet they are very carefully following the progress of the BNSF 'autonomous' inspection and testing...
The 'correct' answer is to put some of the test equipment, particularly accelerometer-based track 'anomaly' detection, directly on some of the locomotives or cars in service, and direct the more specific resources accordingly rather than always having them far away from what are probably often rapidly-evolving defects that worsen under what may be passage of a relatively few cars. Analysis of the resulting mass of 'big data' is a task well-suited to the type of systems being developed for autonomous vehicles over the past six years or so ... as is the artificial intelligence and expert-system development needed to direct attention correctly without creating death marches for the actual MOW people...
... And implement wayside inspection systems capable of scanning wheels and axles for defects in the same manner.
Don't they already have methods of doing that at significant intermediate points, not too much more of a 'spacing' than an enhanced WILD installation would comprise? Suspect you'd catch a great many more intermediate defects, and slow a great many more trains, for not much better prompt detection of actual catastrophic failure. Won't say it isn't worth doing, but it's an awful lot of added complexity for not much additional surety in derailment 'prevention'.
I do know that a program that attends to this has to be in use in the United States for at least some providers of heavy coal unit trains. These run with some variant of low-tare-weight hoppers or gons, so all the issues involving braking proportioning apply to them almost as heavily as for bulkhead flats. And in my past experience you very, very seldom hear them running at speed with more than that interesting musical note that means that compression modulation of the bulk steel is occurring -- so something is frequently removing even relatively small flats or slide burns on the wheelsets and perhaps dressing them to more precise tread profile. (This would make a good modern Trains article.) There are often a few cars that have some sort of emergent flatting, bearing or other noise, etc. but from this frequency alone I might be able to deduce how quickly and how thoroughly the problems are being addressed.
For a fleet of bitumen cars -- dilbit-using or otherwise! -- the likely dedicated nature of the service and operation would surely allow a similar priority of inspection and prompt remediation! (And yes, prompt and perhaps ultimately even semi-autonomous wheelset changeout could easily be part of that at appropriate 'fixed-base' locations, with mobile means for the intermediate unanticipated failures.)
This raises a fun issue, though: are the full costs of the better wheelset-care programs 'billed through' to the bitumen customers... or selectively to the nondegassed-dilbit customers, perhaps as an 'incentive')? And will the railroad and the producers come cleanly to a 'fair' breakdown of cost allocation if not? That would be one of those 'watch this space' things we'll likely never see outside closed doors...
WTI now just about $45.25 . They won't admit it but the price just does not become financially viable until about what ? Maybe $70.00 ? Who does know ?
https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/oil-price?type=wti
Some of the other stories and discussions associated with the link you provided will go a long way to answering the gist of the question, although someone like Midland Mike is probably more qualified than I am to lay out all the complex but interrelated details.
The price of WTI is dramatically off its level as late as the beginning of 2020, supposedly in large part to 'fears of decreased demand due to coronavirus concerns'. Since the actual medical issues of this have long since been debunked, I suspect there is more than a little 'seizing upon' this as an excuse by various economic and political interests. Perhaps this is also related to Euclid's perennial cries that we're in a slide toward economic depression but no one wants to actually admit it ... here is a golden excuse.
Many factors, including relative 'delivered cost' and suitability to process of alternative crudes or feedstocks, govern the spot or future price of West Texas intermediate. The marginal cost of production and delivery I don't know, and it would involve more time and trouble to research them as at best a petroleum 'amateur' than i can spare... again, someone like Midland Mike will either know more or will 'know people' who would.
I coincidently just got back from Alberta, but I was about as far from the oil sands as you could get and still be in that provence. I was on a ski trip in the opposite corner. Retirement is great.
Crude oil prices have been down for a while. Oil sand projects are long term investments, and were more viable when it looked like the price of crude would keep rising. Concern over price uncertainties discourages such long term investments, and there are still plenty of other investment opportunities in conventional oil.
It was predictable that the tentative deal would not be enough to bring down the rail blockades. When resistance has the government on the run, that resistance doesn’t stop for tentative deals. If you worry about offending people, you empower them to win every argument. I doubt that this is moving toward a solution. Clearly, it is intensifying. The first offer was to take down the blockades if the RCMP withdrew from Wet’suwet’en territory. Then more conditions were added as more factions joined the protest.
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/mohawks-face-online-threats-hate-as-protest-continues
EuclidWhen resistance has the government on the run, that resistance doesn’t stop for tentative deals. If you worry about offending people, you empower them to win every argument. I doubt that this is moving toward a solution. Clearly, it is intensifying. The first offer was to take down the blockades if the RCMP withdrew from Wet’suwet’en territory. Then more conditions were added as more factions joined the protest.
Pehaps we might interest them in signing a treaty?
Convicted OnePehaps we might interest them in signing a treaty?
Euclid Convicted One Pehaps we might interest them in signing a treaty? The way this is working out, I doubt they would feel a need to sign one.
Convicted One Pehaps we might interest them in signing a treaty?
The way this is working out, I doubt they would feel a need to sign one.
Treaty's are like contracts - they can be broken at will. The concept of honoring agreed obligations has very little creedence in today's world.
BaltACDTreaty's are like contracts - they can be broken at will. The concept of honoring agreed obligations has very little creedence in today's world.
I don't believe that is the case. Contracts can be broken, but there is a price to pay for breaking them. I have no idea whether there is a contract or treaty in the matters of these protests. But if two parties are at war, they have no contract. There are actually three parties to this conflict.
Euclid BaltACD Treaty's are like contracts - they can be broken at will. The concept of honoring agreed obligations has very little creedence in today's world. I don't believe that is the case. Contracts can be broken, but there is a price to pay for breaking them. I have no idea whether there is a contract or treaty in the matters of these protests. But if two parties are at war, they have no contract. There are actually three parties to this conflict.
BaltACD Treaty's are like contracts - they can be broken at will. The concept of honoring agreed obligations has very little creedence in today's world.
Iran nuclear Treaty, Paris Climate Treaty just name two broken treaties in the last 3 years.
There are always prices to be paid for the dishonor of breaking a contract or treaty. The biggest price that get paid is in any level of trust between any parties involved.
As a world we have gone from 'trust but verify' to no trust whatsoever. Warmongers live for wars they can die in, not for peace.
I'm starting to think you've never worked for a railroad.
BaltACDIran nuclear Treaty, Paris Climate Treaty just name two broken treaties in the last 3 years.
Neither of those were treaties.
Both the Iran Nuclear agreement and the Paris Climate Accord were agreements signed by President Obama, but were not approved by the Senate.
The Constitution says that the president, "shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two-thirds of the Senators present concur;".
Alexander Hamilton made it clear that one person, the president, should not be able to tie the hands of administrations that follow without the approval of the Senate.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
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