n012944 Cotton Belt MP104 Deggesty CSSHEGEWISCH A college professor once told my class that we can use any words we want as long as we agree on the definitions. Definitions of the various words used in the Operating Rules are what matter. Exactly. You may not act as Humpty Dumpty in Through Looking Glass did, saying that words mean "what I want them to." You must know what the words in your rule book mean--and live by them. Exactly, ........and that is what happened in this discussion about authority versis permission. Those who said I was in error concerning my first post, have been shown via Jeff's post, especially the most recent one, it is as I said. And I was not repeating "what I wanted them to mean" or discounted as "fourth hand shanty talk" endmrw0310181015 Um, no you were in error because you were not clear with the details. As pointed out by many, what you said was wrong on non GCOR railroads. And since you never mentioned a railroad in your almost unreadable 1st post, those that pointed out your error were correct.
Cotton Belt MP104 Deggesty CSSHEGEWISCH A college professor once told my class that we can use any words we want as long as we agree on the definitions. Definitions of the various words used in the Operating Rules are what matter. Exactly. You may not act as Humpty Dumpty in Through Looking Glass did, saying that words mean "what I want them to." You must know what the words in your rule book mean--and live by them. Exactly, ........and that is what happened in this discussion about authority versis permission. Those who said I was in error concerning my first post, have been shown via Jeff's post, especially the most recent one, it is as I said. And I was not repeating "what I wanted them to mean" or discounted as "fourth hand shanty talk" endmrw0310181015
Deggesty CSSHEGEWISCH A college professor once told my class that we can use any words we want as long as we agree on the definitions. Definitions of the various words used in the Operating Rules are what matter. Exactly. You may not act as Humpty Dumpty in Through Looking Glass did, saying that words mean "what I want them to." You must know what the words in your rule book mean--and live by them.
CSSHEGEWISCH
A college professor once told my class that we can use any words we want as long as we agree on the definitions. Definitions of the various words used in the Operating Rules are what matter.
Exactly. You may not act as Humpty Dumpty in Through Looking Glass did, saying that words mean "what I want them to."
You must know what the words in your rule book mean--and live by them.
Exactly, ........and that is what happened in this discussion about authority versis permission. Those who said I was in error concerning my first post, have been shown via Jeff's post, especially the most recent one, it is as I said. And I was not repeating "what I wanted them to mean" or discounted as "fourth hand shanty talk" endmrw0310181015
Um, no you were in error because you were not clear with the details. As pointed out by many, what you said was wrong on non GCOR railroads. And since you never mentioned a railroad in your almost unreadable 1st post, those that pointed out your error were correct.
Funny thing is, I weighed in a few times saying about the same thing about authority vs. permission and it's like no one noticed. I knew the location he was talking about. That the railroad was UP, involving former Cotten Belt and Rock Island trackage. I guess I assumed most every one else knew it at least to be UP, too. I guess I also assumed if I acknowledgded some of what he posted, people might realize we aren't talking NS, CSX or NORAC rules here.
Jeff
An "expensive model collector"
CSSHEGEWISCH A college professor once told my class that we can use any words we want as long as we agree on the definitions. Definitions of the various words used in the Operating Rules are what matter.
Johnny
Euclid Overmod Euclid That is what I said. Except that you said 'voided' which is not right. "Suspended" might be a better word but still not semantically quite right. The train reserves the 'sole right' to be there at all times; that does not go away if the train is 'held' for safety reasons. And if there is some other train causing the ABS stop, it will not be allowed to move without a release and reassignment of the unvoided use of authority that has been granted. "Voided" is just fine. Obviously the train cannot have the right to be where it has track authority if a stop signal prevents the train from being in that place of track authority. So in that case, track authority alone does not grant a right to be there. So in a practical sense, I would say that the stop signal voids the track authority. Then when the signal clears, the track authority becomes unvoided. Actually, the perfect word is "suppress." This allows the concept that when a stop signal prevents movement through a zone of track authority, the track authority is still there. But is suppressed by the stop signal. I'm going with suppress. It means to restrain or subdue the effect without removing the underlying cause. Suppress... A stop indication on ABS suppresses track authority beyond the signal.
Overmod Euclid That is what I said. Except that you said 'voided' which is not right. "Suspended" might be a better word but still not semantically quite right. The train reserves the 'sole right' to be there at all times; that does not go away if the train is 'held' for safety reasons. And if there is some other train causing the ABS stop, it will not be allowed to move without a release and reassignment of the unvoided use of authority that has been granted.
Euclid That is what I said.
Except that you said 'voided' which is not right. "Suspended" might be a better word but still not semantically quite right. The train reserves the 'sole right' to be there at all times; that does not go away if the train is 'held' for safety reasons. And if there is some other train causing the ABS stop, it will not be allowed to move without a release and reassignment of the unvoided use of authority that has been granted.
"Voided" is just fine. Obviously the train cannot have the right to be where it has track authority if a stop signal prevents the train from being in that place of track authority. So in that case, track authority alone does not grant a right to be there. So in a practical sense, I would say that the stop signal voids the track authority. Then when the signal clears, the track authority becomes unvoided.
Actually, the perfect word is "suppress." This allows the concept that when a stop signal prevents movement through a zone of track authority, the track authority is still there. But is suppressed by the stop signal. I'm going with suppress. It means to restrain or subdue the effect without removing the underlying cause. Suppress... A stop indication on ABS suppresses track authority beyond the signal.
A stop signal in ABS does nothing to the train's authority. The signal can not grant, nor take away authority. If the signal had a proceed indication (clear, advance approach, approach) but the train did not have a track warrant beyond the signal, the train can not proceed.
If the train has authorization past it, the Stop signal does not keep the train from passing it. It requires a stop, but there are procedures to pass it which have been discussed. If the Stop signal took away authority, a train could not pass it without contacting the dispatcher. Something the rules clearly allow. If the Stop signal took away authority the dispatcher would have to use the word authority instead of permission to allow the train to proceed past it.
tree68 OK. Dad calls you into his workshop, hands you the car keys, and tells you he wants to go to the hardware store to pick up a framis for his current project. For the purposes of this example, his directive to drive to the hardware store equates to authority to drive to the hardware store. On the way, you encounter a traffic light that is red for your direction of travel, so you stop. At this point, is your trip to the hardware store voided, suppressed, suspended, or interrupted?
OK. Dad calls you into his workshop, hands you the car keys, and tells you he wants to go to the hardware store to pick up a framis for his current project.
For the purposes of this example, his directive to drive to the hardware store equates to authority to drive to the hardware store.
On the way, you encounter a traffic light that is red for your direction of travel, so you stop.
At this point, is your trip to the hardware store voided, suppressed, suspended, or interrupted?
tree68OK. Dad calls you into his workshop, hands you the car keys, and tells you he wants to go to the hardware store to pick up a framis for his current project. For the purposes of this example, his directive to drive to the hardware store equates to authority to drive to the hardware store. On the way, you encounter a traffic light that is red for your direction of travel, so you stop. At this point, is your trip to the hardware store voided, suppressed, suspended, or interrupted?
Once at the hardware store and business had been concluded, authority is also in hand for the return home, however, should a side trip to Pizza Hut be taken - that is outside the limits of the authority and is punishable for exceeding the limits of the authority. Stop Signs or Stop Lights DO NOT change the limits of the authority they just change the speeds at which the authority may be fulfilled.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68At this point, is your trip to the hardware store voided, suppressed, suspended, or interrupted?
I would say none of those. Motion is paused, but the goal is still in effect and as soon as permission is given, the trip can continue. Slow orders don't end a trip, they just advise the allowable speed for a specified portion of the route. Similarly, the stop (or stop and proceed) signal may cause the train to pause, but it doesn't terminate the trip.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Voiding has a very specific meaning when it comes to our track authorities and form Ds (I have no clue about you GCOR guys), so you have to be careful with that term.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I thought we were told that track authority continues to exist while movement over it is prohibited due to a stop indication from ABS. Interrupt means that the thing interrupted ceases to exist during the interruption. So I don’t think the glove fits.
zugmann I'd say interrupt.
I'd say interrupt.
In the spirit of the Pythons, "Stop! Stop! This sketch is not funny!"
Would Johnny Cochrane say "if the 'spatch don't bless you must suppress"?
YES SUPPRESS
Yes, but!
EuclidThat is what I said.
Cotton Belt MP104Where have you been when ranting and raving about Southwest airlines customer service and other side related issues were going on.
Even God had to take a break on the 7th day.
Overmod Euclid So even though track authority exists, the right to use it is voided as long as the ABS indicates stop (unless permission is granted to proceed past the stop indication). See Jeff's corrections to what I wrote. The right to 'use' the authority remains regardless of what the ABS says; it establishes the right of the train to be where it is. All that is "voided" by the ABS indicating red is the permission to advance the train into the (unknown) hazards that caused the safety signal to display 'stop'. Note that the procedures Jeff provided are all relatively safe ways to move up and confirm what made the signal drop without having to, say, wait for someone on the ground to confirm the situation for the dispatcher. But they involve aspects of permission; without pre-existing and continuing authority none of them could be utilized.
Euclid So even though track authority exists, the right to use it is voided as long as the ABS indicates stop (unless permission is granted to proceed past the stop indication).
See Jeff's corrections to what I wrote. The right to 'use' the authority remains regardless of what the ABS says; it establishes the right of the train to be where it is. All that is "voided" by the ABS indicating red is the permission to advance the train into the (unknown) hazards that caused the safety signal to display 'stop'. Note that the procedures Jeff provided are all relatively safe ways to move up and confirm what made the signal drop without having to, say, wait for someone on the ground to confirm the situation for the dispatcher. But they involve aspects of permission; without pre-existing and continuing authority none of them could be utilized.
That is what I said.
Overmod Euclid Okay, I see the distinction. If a train has a track warrant conveying authority, and an ABS displays stop, does the stop indication suspend or override the track authority conveyed by the warrant? I think you have missed the whole point of the thread up to now. The only way a train will pass an ABS displaying 'stop' is if it is given permission to do so. That is completely different from the authority that ensures it is the only train able to operate in that section of railroad.
Euclid Okay, I see the distinction. If a train has a track warrant conveying authority, and an ABS displays stop, does the stop indication suspend or override the track authority conveyed by the warrant?
I think you have missed the whole point of the thread up to now.
The only way a train will pass an ABS displaying 'stop' is if it is given permission to do so. That is completely different from the authority that ensures it is the only train able to operate in that section of railroad.
In ABS, if you have a track warrant authorizing movement past the signal displaying stop (This does not apply to interlockings, manual or automatic. Those are covered by other rules.) you can pass the signal without permission if you can't get hold of the dispatcher.
After stopping and attempting to contact the dispatcher, you can pull past the signal 100 feet and then again stop. Wait 5 minutes and then proceed at restricted speed to the next signal. Pulling past, stopping and then waiting 5 minutes establishes opposing block signal protection.
OvermodIf I might recommend a semantic change: the train still has authority to be on the section of railroad it occupies, to the exception of any other train. That says nothing about its progress down that section of railroad -- which, to be safe, is governed by ABS or, in its absence, by a very careful version of block working.
Agreed.
In the absence of ABS (and without CTC), though, aren't we look at dark territory, in which each train will be given exclusive authority (TWC/DCS/etc) to occupy a specific stretch of track?
The driver's license analogy is appropriate.
tree68 Euclid ...does the stop indication suspend or override the track authority conveyed by the warrant? No, aside from prohibiting further movement in that direction until the signal aspect becomes less restrictive. As mentioned, the signal simply indicates track occupancy in the block ahead. Suspend is too strong a term. The train still has authority to occupy the track, just not until the light turns green, if you will. For all intents and purposes, an automatic interlocking like Rochelle is still a track occupancy indication - it's just that your track may not be occupied, but the intersecting track is.
Euclid ...does the stop indication suspend or override the track authority conveyed by the warrant?
No, aside from prohibiting further movement in that direction until the signal aspect becomes less restrictive. As mentioned, the signal simply indicates track occupancy in the block ahead. Suspend is too strong a term. The train still has authority to occupy the track, just not until the light turns green, if you will.
For all intents and purposes, an automatic interlocking like Rochelle is still a track occupancy indication - it's just that your track may not be occupied, but the intersecting track is.
So the ABS stop indication, does not actually eliminate the track authority, as may be implied by my use of the word "suspend." But the ABS stop indication does prohibit movement past it even though track authority exists beyond the stop indication. So even though track authority exists, the right to use it is voided as long as the ABS indicates stop (unless permission is granted to proceed past the stop indication). So track authority can exist without the authority to move through it.
tree68The train still has authority to occupy the track, just not until the light turns green, if you will.
If I might recommend a semantic change: the train still has authority to be on the section of railroad it occupies, to the exception of any other train. That says nothing about its progress down that section of railroad -- which, to be safe, is governed by ABS or, in its absence, by a very careful version of block working.
As a very imperfect analogy: a driver's license allows you to operate a vehicle on a given section of public road, and without it you're not supposed to turn a wheel there. But having a valid license in your possession does not allow you to run red lights or roll through stops with impunity. Likewise primarily for safety, not operational-efficiency, reasons.
OvermodI think you have missed the whole point of the thread up to now.
I am sure that I did miss the whole poing of this thread up to now because I was not reading the thread up to now. So I was just asking a pinpoint, stand alone question regarding the relationship between signal indication and track authority for ABS and CTC.
Euclid...does the stop indication suspend or override the track authority conveyed by the warrant?
EuclidOkay, I see the distinction. If a train has a track warrant conveying authority, and an ABS displays stop, does the stop indication suspend or override the track authority conveyed by the warrant?
If you read up on the early history, first of the block system and then on implementation of automatic block systems (notably in the early years of the 20th Century) you will appreciate why this distinction is so important ... and why the display on the signals is different from train-order and track-warrant control of movements.
It does not help that the signal displays have been 'overloaded' (in the computer sense) with more aspects that convey different information -- for example, 'diverging clear' on NS. (These are not limited to color-light signals; there are some for PRR-style position lights and BaltACD can explain some for CPLs). Remember that at least nominally the dispatcher controls the extra aspects, and therefore they constitute a form of 'permission' not requiring explicit communication with the dispatcher via radio.
I'm sure you recognize that the effectiveness of ABS as a safety system would be fundamentally destroyed if track-warrant authority 'superseded' a stop signal it displayed.
When I was young, I was fooled by analogy into thinking that signals worked as they do on the roads, and by extension on the New York subways, and that as a B&O engineer famously said about Patenall's signals "when I see a green anywhere I go like hell". There have been arguments over the years to implement just this kind of signal-based 'authority' and I believe some of the PTC proposals in that time either tacitly or explicitly contain some details (albeit with the 'safety' aspects sent in code rather than with colored lights for human eyes). But there are likely to remain valid reasons to retain some form of authority, if only as a 'backup', even in a world of full and effective bandwidth and communications enabling good CBTC.
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