RME Euclid Yes, if missing critical phone calls or alerts really happened. Out of curiosity, what leads you to believe the union people are lying? Supposedly the person concerned fell and had his hand amputated. Again, some of the details and context are in the other thread. I do not know the CSX procedure for reporting a life-critical injury, but with cell-phone use on duty contraindicated I'd think it would not involve calling 911 for an ambulance directly. So at least some time was lost trying to reach people who 'didn't answer', and I see nothing particularly implausible about all the tower people being 'away from the phones' on the ground looking up through their little glasses just at that moment. Do you think a member of even the most militant union would choose to have his hand cut off to make or further a point about potential management inattention or hypocrisy?
Euclid Yes, if missing critical phone calls or alerts really happened.
Out of curiosity, what leads you to believe the union people are lying?
Supposedly the person concerned fell and had his hand amputated. Again, some of the details and context are in the other thread. I do not know the CSX procedure for reporting a life-critical injury, but with cell-phone use on duty contraindicated I'd think it would not involve calling 911 for an ambulance directly. So at least some time was lost trying to reach people who 'didn't answer', and I see nothing particularly implausible about all the tower people being 'away from the phones' on the ground looking up through their little glasses just at that moment. Do you think a member of even the most militant union would choose to have his hand cut off to make or further a point about potential management inattention or hypocrisy?
Let me upack your comments. I never said I believe the union people are lying. I only implied by my comment that their statements may not be true. Obviously there is a huge polarization as the backdrop to this incident, and there are agendas on each side of the conflict. So there are reasons to exaggerate or shade the truth to influence public opinion. There is nothing implausible about time lost in reporting an accident because people did not answer their phone, but we don't know that really happened. No I don't think anyone would choose to have their hand cut off to make a point about the treatment by management. I never said anything that would suggest that, so I don't know why you ask me.
EuclidYes, if missing critical phone calls or alerts really happened.
RME Euclid So, what are the details that actually led to this injury? Why are we to believe that it was caused by all of the general background of grievance that is listed? Much of what you need is in the "Total Eclipse of Safety" thread. The union claims the injury was caused in the dark conditions around totality, because the crews of the two side-by-side jobs were made to keep working in the dark, while the supervisory personnel were so enthralled watching the eclipse progress that they wouldn't respond to telephone calls reporting a critical accident. Here, as in so many other places in modern life, you will have to unwind the truth from the 'official' CSX and union communications and propaganda. Personally, I find the 'eclipse' cause of the injury something of a stretch, but I'm enraged at the thought of on-duty personnel missing critical phone calls or alerts.
Euclid So, what are the details that actually led to this injury? Why are we to believe that it was caused by all of the general background of grievance that is listed?
Much of what you need is in the "Total Eclipse of Safety" thread.
The union claims the injury was caused in the dark conditions around totality, because the crews of the two side-by-side jobs were made to keep working in the dark, while the supervisory personnel were so enthralled watching the eclipse progress that they wouldn't respond to telephone calls reporting a critical accident.
Here, as in so many other places in modern life, you will have to unwind the truth from the 'official' CSX and union communications and propaganda. Personally, I find the 'eclipse' cause of the injury something of a stretch, but I'm enraged at the thought of on-duty personnel missing critical phone calls or alerts.
Yes, if missing critcal phone calls or alerts really happened.
I did read the total eclipse thread, but I find it hard to believe that a railroader would be sujected to an accidental injury just because it got dark outside. So I would like to know exactly how the person was injured. Apparently he was struck by moving rolling stock. How did he come into conflict with the moving equipment?
BaltACD zardoz I've got a great idea! Build a track that has a long uphill approach so the cars are shoved uphill until they reach the apex, then have a person pull the pin lever, and let the cars roll downhill to their respective tracks, using the many switches that could be remotely controlled. Maybe have a device on the downhill segment that could slow cars as needed so as to prevent too-high speed couplings. No running or riding necessary. Build it and Harrison will close it!
zardoz I've got a great idea! Build a track that has a long uphill approach so the cars are shoved uphill until they reach the apex, then have a person pull the pin lever, and let the cars roll downhill to their respective tracks, using the many switches that could be remotely controlled. Maybe have a device on the downhill segment that could slow cars as needed so as to prevent too-high speed couplings. No running or riding necessary.
Build it and Harrison will close it!
Johnny
EuclidSo, what are the details that actually led to this injury? Why are we to believe that it was caused by all of the general background of grievance that is listed?
So, what are the details that actually led to this injury? Why are we to believe that it was caused by all of the general background of grievance that is listed?
zardozI've got a great idea! Build a track that has a long uphill approach so the cars are shoved uphill until they reach the apex, then have a person pull the pin lever, and let the cars roll downhill to their respective tracks, using the many switches that could be remotely controlled. Maybe have a device on the downhill segment that could slow cars as needed so as to prevent too-high speed couplings. No running or riding necessary.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I've got a great idea! Build a track that has a long uphill approach so the cars are shoved uphill until they reach the apex, then have a person pull the pin lever, and let the cars roll downhill to their respective tracks, using the many switches that could be remotely controlled. Maybe have a device on the downhill segment that could slow cars as needed so as to prevent too-high speed couplings. No running or riding necessary.
I pounded the ground (I was usually pulling levers in the engine) for about 1 1/2 years. I can't say I enjoyed it but I was in pretty good shape !
ps: I did alot of running.
EuclidIf there is an actual rule against running, why would anybody perform a dangerous practice that requires running every time a kick is made? Frankly, it sounds like an exaggerated complaint.
Thank you Mr. Harrison
zugmann Euclid So I guess it is because of those uphill kicks at higher throttle positions that you get the slack running out, but not running out far enough to let the car go. Then it runs back in again and drops the pin. Then you have go running to catch up and pull the pin before the kick is ended. I can see you never kicked a car. You need the slack in to pull the pin (and no, they don't always stay up), then you need enough oomph (scientific term) to get the damned thing to go where you want it to. Otherwise it will stall out (esp on curves and frogs), or if the grade is uphill away from you, it will be like the prodigal son and you get to do the whole process again.
Euclid So I guess it is because of those uphill kicks at higher throttle positions that you get the slack running out, but not running out far enough to let the car go. Then it runs back in again and drops the pin. Then you have go running to catch up and pull the pin before the kick is ended.
So I guess it is because of those uphill kicks at higher throttle positions that you get the slack running out, but not running out far enough to let the car go. Then it runs back in again and drops the pin. Then you have go running to catch up and pull the pin before the kick is ended.
I can see you never kicked a car. You need the slack in to pull the pin (and no, they don't always stay up), then you need enough oomph (scientific term) to get the damned thing to go where you want it to. Otherwise it will stall out (esp on curves and frogs), or if the grade is uphill away from you, it will be like the prodigal son and you get to do the whole process again.
Yes I am very familiar with kicking cars, and know all about slack needed to pull the pin. I know the pins don’t always stay up, but most of the time they do. I know the kick amounts to “oomph” as you say, to get the car to roll on to its destination. But, I have never seen the slack run out during a kick until the stop sign was given to end the kick and let the car go. A kick seems like the last place the slack would ever run out.
So, I do not understand the complaint I quoted in blue above. It makes it sound like the guy pulling the pin has to pull it and hold it up while running alongside for every kick. If there is an actual rule against running, why would anybody perform a dangerous practice that requires running every time a kick is made? Frankly, it sounds like an exaggerated complaint.
BaltACDThere was once a time when railroading was a real man's job
I guess losing a limb made you a real man? Never really understood how risking bodily harm equates to being a man.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
edblysard Euclid So I guess it is because of those uphill kicks at higher throttle positions that you get the slack running out, but not running out far enough to let the car go. Then it runs back in again and drops the pin. Then you have go running to catch up and pull the pin before the kick is ended. Uphill the slack will bunch up…the trick is that the movement has to stop hard or fast enough to “crack the whip” so to speak. Because you’re going uphill, the initial speed is higher than normal, you can only walk so fast…I would imagine most carriers are like mine, running is forbidden, as is riding a car and using your foot to lift the pin. In this instance, you have a very narrow window to pull the pin and hope it stays up…of course, you can always bald head the joint and kick it that way, but then the knuckle you are holding on to has to opened afterwards. At the speeds you would have to be moving to kick uphill, if you had to hold the cut lever or pin up while waiting for the stop, you will be running, hard.
Uphill the slack will bunch up…the trick is that the movement has to stop hard or fast enough to “crack the whip” so to speak.
Here's an example of what I mean: This brakeman is riding in an ominous position, preparing to make a cut between two cars in Indiana Harbor Belt's blue Island Yard in Riverdale, IL. He has three-point contact, but his left leg is on the side of the journal box. It would be very easy for him to lose his balance, or be kicked in between cars, when the engineer bunched slack (remember, there were NO radios then). Yet this kind of move was made thousands of times a day, all across the country, in every kind of operating condition and weather.It truly was a different era.
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BaltACD zugmann edblysard Wow…all these years I was doing it wrong! You're not the only one. Oh well. This is why I like these forums. We always are learning. Nothing makes an engineer quite as happy as trying to kick cars and not having the cut actually get made - by the time the movement stops it is well past the the clearance point of the switch - now the entire cut of cars has to be pulled back to make another attempt at doing it right.[/sarcasm]
zugmann edblysard Wow…all these years I was doing it wrong! You're not the only one. Oh well. This is why I like these forums. We always are learning.
edblysard Wow…all these years I was doing it wrong!
You're not the only one. Oh well. This is why I like these forums. We always are learning.
Nothing makes an engineer quite as happy as trying to kick cars and not having the cut actually get made - by the time the movement stops it is well past the the clearance point of the switch - now the entire cut of cars has to be pulled back to make another attempt at doing it right.[/sarcasm]
I know, such hard work moving those handles.
edblysardWow…all these years I was doing it wrong!
jeffhergert Uncoupling the cars when "kicking" cars. You lift the lever (cut lever) at the end of the car and it lifts the locking block that allows the knuckle to open. It is possible to do this as soon as the car starts moving and the slack is in at that coupling, so you may not have to stay beside the car all the time it's moving. However, many times the "pin" may not stay up. Then you'll have to pull the pin and possibly hold it open until the cars separate. Jeff
Uncoupling the cars when "kicking" cars. You lift the lever (cut lever) at the end of the car and it lifts the locking block that allows the knuckle to open. It is possible to do this as soon as the car starts moving and the slack is in at that coupling, so you may not have to stay beside the car all the time it's moving. However, many times the "pin" may not stay up. Then you'll have to pull the pin and possibly hold it open until the cars separate.
Jeff
I am familiar with that type of problem. Normally, a person pulls the pin as soon as the engine begins to shove for the kick, and the pin remains lifted as the car is kicked and let go. But maybe on average, every 50 kicks, the pin is lifted but does not stay up. So as I recall; a person would either ride the car and hold the pin up, and then jump off after the car separates from the one trailing it; or just run alongside of the moving car and hold the pin lifted until the car separates from the cut. Generally, the running alongside approach has been considered to be dangerous, and the safest method is to just shove the car into the track and leave it rather than kicking it.
What I quoted from the article sounds similar to what I have described, but I cannot reconcile the parts about higher throttle positions, kicking uphill, cars rolling, and slack running out. I cannot make any sense out of that at all. Usually you pull the pin way before the cars get rolling very fast, and you have to pull the pin before the slack runs out because a pin cannot be pulled if the slack is stretched.
And also, the article makes it sound like this pin problem happens routinely with every kick due to the difficult track geometry. It is a very interesting grievance, but it needs to be clearly explained.
The letter referred to in the news item is the one Balt posted on another thread.
From the article, what does this mean? Can somebody elaborate?
“The new lead tracks allegedly involve uphill movements where locomotives have to use higher throttle positions. The union reports that by the time a cut of cars is rolling and the slack is running out, train crew members have to run in order to pull the pin.”
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — The SMART Transportation Division labor union is calling out CSX Transportation for what is alleges as unsafe operating conditions that led to a serious injury at the railroad’s Radnor Yard in Nashville, Tenn., earlie...
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/08/25-smart-labor-union-says-unsafe-conditions-at-csx-led-to-severe-injury
Brian Schmidt, Editor, Classic Trains magazine
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