Recent "equipment moves" over out-of-service portions of the line have been mentioned here in another thread by Larry / tree68. I wonder if that activity/ demonstration of feasibility or intent of possible future service will have any effect on the local political deliberations about the future of the line (sadly, probably not).
However, the environmental benefits and historical aspects of the line can't be ruled out (yet) as possible saviors of it. If those was enough to save the Grand Central Terminal from demolition and redevelopment as commercial uses, there may be hope yet.
Finally, I wonder if an appeal to the STB will be filed. That Board has jurisdiction over any rail line abandonments, and would supersede any state action. Lack of service - even for many years - does not necessarily indicate an intent to abandon the line, but perhaps instead just a suspension of service.
The possible future restoration of a line is one of the rationales for preserving them as rail-trails. Although that principle would seem to point to the end of this line, those are extreme cases when the railroad wants to abandon the line.
Back in the 1960's there were handful of cases (3 ?) where a state sought and the ICC ordered the abandonment of small lines or segments of them, usually for an alleged greater public benfit (typically a highway project). Michael J. Dunn III wrote an article in Trains about that, and as I recall all 3 were money-losing operations that didn't have long to live anyway.
Now, with this abandonment being much longer in scope - and if the STB doesn't waive the Environmental Impact Study required by NEPA for 'major' Federal government decisions - it might be a crapshoot how this turns out, and will bear watching.
- Paul North.
K SCOTT GUDGEON It seems like this saga is nearing its end if not quite over. Am I the only person who thinks the NY State government and Lake PLacid Olympic folks are nuts to tear up rails to Lake Placid when they are thinking of a future Winter Olympics bid for a town that has no real scheduled air service and will soon have no prospect of passenger rail service either? What are they thinking? Here is the latest email bulletin from the Adirondack Scenic RR: ... A winter Olympics and no way to get there?
It seems like this saga is nearing its end if not quite over. Am I the only person who thinks the NY State government and Lake PLacid Olympic folks are nuts to tear up rails to Lake Placid when they are thinking of a future Winter Olympics bid for a town that has no real scheduled air service and will soon have no prospect of passenger rail service either? What are they thinking? Here is the latest email bulletin from the Adirondack Scenic RR: ... A winter Olympics and no way to get there?
It seems like this saga is nearing its end if not quite over. Am I the only person who thinks the NY State government and Lake PLacid Olympic folks are nuts to tear up rails to Lake Placid when they are thinking of a future Winter Olympics bid for a town that has no real scheduled air service and will soon have no prospect of passenger rail service either? What are they thinking? Here is the latest email bulletin from the Adirondack Scenic RR:
...
It's highly unlikely a town as small as Lake Placid would ever get another Olympics. The Winter Olympics have grown too big and way too expensive. The Olympic Committee expects that biddding cities will have mass transit. The 2022 Bejing Winter Olympics will have HSR between Bejing (location of the big ticket items like hockey and figure skating) and the mountain events some distance out of the city.
samfp1943Seems as if this is the latest chapter in the sory of "...How the Stomach Churns in the Adirondacks..." It would seem that "The Developers" have finally won this round...seems to be more of the case that money talks, and balogna smells. Quite the political decision !
More a case of the "no development" folks winning.
There are those among them who want everyone out of the woods, never mind the railroad. The development of a resort at Tupper Lake, was loudly opposed by those of this mind set. I've heard that the building of a "big box" department store was stymied when one of them bought the proposed site.
And yes, it is a purely political decision. The "trail advocates" have been spreading plenty of money around.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
CMStPnP Well New York State is pretty silly on how it spends it's money. Look at the annual stats for the Erie Canal preservation as an example. I think they spend over $200 million a year on preserving what amounts to a large ditch for a few pleasure craft and their annual revenue take is less than 10% of that amount. Thats why New Yorkers pay such high taxes.
Well New York State is pretty silly on how it spends it's money. Look at the annual stats for the Erie Canal preservation as an example. I think they spend over $200 million a year on preserving what amounts to a large ditch for a few pleasure craft and their annual revenue take is less than 10% of that amount. Thats why New Yorkers pay such high taxes.
Seems as if this is the latest chapter in the sory of "...How the Stomach Churns in the Adirondacks..."
It would seem that "The Developers" have finally won this round...seems to be more of the case that money talks, and balogna smells.
Quite the political decision !
Anonymous Sad news: An historic rail line from Utica through the Adirondacks to Lake Placid will be partially converted to a bike path/snowmobile trail as part of a plan by the state Departments of Transportation and Environmental Conservation today. Rails used by a tourist train would remain in place to Tupper Lake, where a mega-resort is being planned, but be removed from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid, so the rail bed could be turned into the new multi-use path. This would end the use of the tourist train from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake. http://blog.timesunion.com/business/state-announces-plans-for-adirondack-rail-line-conversion-to-bikesnowmobile-path/66847/ It seems like this saga is nearing its end if not quite over. Am I the only person who thinks the NY State government and Lake PLacid Olympic folks are nuts to tear up rails to Lake Placid when they are thinking of a future Winter Olympics bid for a town that has no real scheduled air service and will soon have no prospect of passenger rail service either? What are they thinking? Here is the latest email bulletin from the Adirondack Scenic RR: Anonymous Sad news: An historic rail line from Utica through the Adirondacks to Lake Placid will be partially converted to a bike path/snowmobile trail as part of a plan by the state Departments of Transportation and Environmental Conservation today. Rails used by a tourist train would remain in place to Tupper Lake, where a mega-resort is being planned, but be removed from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid, so the rail bed could be turned into the new multi-use path. This would end the use of the tourist train from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake. http://blog.timesunion.com/business/state-announces-plans-for-adirondack-rail-line-conversion-to-bikesnowmobile-path/66847/ Anonymous Sad news: An historic rail line from Utica through the Adirondacks to Lake Placid will be partially converted to a bike path/snowmobile trail as part of a plan by the state Departments of Transportation and Environmental Conservation today. Rails used by a tourist train would remain in place to Tupper Lake, where a mega-resort is being planned, but be removed from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid, so the rail bed could be turned into the new multi-use path. This would end the use of the tourist train from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake. http://blog.timesunion.com/business/state-announces-plans-for-adirondack-rail-line-conversion-to-bikesnowmobile-path/66847/ A winter Olympics and no way to get there?
Sad news:
An historic rail line from Utica through the Adirondacks to Lake Placid will be partially converted to a bike path/snowmobile trail as part of a plan by the state Departments of Transportation and Environmental Conservation today. Rails used by a tourist train would remain in place to Tupper Lake, where a mega-resort is being planned, but be removed from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid, so the rail bed could be turned into the new multi-use path. This would end the use of the tourist train from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake.
http://blog.timesunion.com/business/state-announces-plans-for-adirondack-rail-line-conversion-to-bikesnowmobile-path/66847/
Anonymous Sad news: An historic rail line from Utica through the Adirondacks to Lake Placid will be partially converted to a bike path/snowmobile trail as part of a plan by the state Departments of Transportation and Environmental Conservation today. Rails used by a tourist train would remain in place to Tupper Lake, where a mega-resort is being planned, but be removed from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid, so the rail bed could be turned into the new multi-use path. This would end the use of the tourist train from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake. http://blog.timesunion.com/business/state-announces-plans-for-adirondack-rail-line-conversion-to-bikesnowmobile-path/66847/
[quote user="tree68"]
"...Elevation at "Summit", just west (RR north) of Big Moose station, is 2040 feet, reputedly the highest point on the New York Central. In fact, the sign stating such (erected by the NYC) will be duplicated at the spot.
Big Moose is 11 rail miles north of Thendara, not between Tupper Lake and Lake Placid.
Big Moose Hill, five miles of 1.1% grade (with minor variations) was the ruling grade on the line. Purgatory Hill, just south of Otter Lake, is a little steeper, but not as long.
The Adirondack Railroad (Olympic edition) ran from 1979 to August of 1980. It was shut down for several reasons, including some poor management.
However, right up to the last trip, the railroad was carrying around 100 passengers each way on each trip. Had the operation been properly run, I would opine that today's Adirondack Scenic might not exist, as the Adirondack RR might well still be a going concern.
Unless the "trail advocates" are able to push this ahead quickly, I don't foresee any rails being removed for a while. There are things like historical designations to deal with, among other issues..."
[/quote]
Larry (tree68): I have no intention of arguing your points as quoted:My information was from the 'Camoin Study'."...Elevation at "Summit", just west (RR north) of Big Moose station, is 2040 feet, reputedly the highest point on the New York Central. In fact, the sign stating such (erected by the NYC) will be duplicated at the spot..."
Larry (tree68) You help to make my point. The current study, under discussion is the "Camoin Study" which seems to just revise, and make current the original UMP from 1995/96..The information I quoted was from the "History Section" of their study. The data they used is just a re-hash of data almost 20 years old(give or take?).
As I previously had indicated, such a study is more or less an affirmation of the 'Points" that the study's sponsor's want to use to reaffirm their positions... Sort of a play on the "Baffle them with B.S. tact". Reshuffle the data, and the uninformed will seem to just accept it; because it is presented by some 'experts'. Beware, I used to work a long time ago for some pretty smart guys; one of which used to say that to bureaucrats, and politicians, anyone from out of town who arrived with a briefcase was an'expert'. [Just my 2 cents.] Trust,but verify !
Elevation at "Summit", just west (RR north) of Big Moose station, is 2040 feet, reputedly the highest point on the New York Central. In fact, the sign stating such (erected by the NYC) will be duplicated at the spot.
Unless the "trail advocates" are able to push this ahead quickly, I don't foresee any rails being removed for a while. There are things like historical designations to deal with, among other issues.
tree68 cx500 If the present plan is put into action, I can see the track north of Tupper Lake being ripped up right away. Then the moaning will start, "no money in the budget this year to rehabilitate the middle section", and the so-called compromise will turn out to be smoke and mirrors. I'm betting that the money won't be there to build the trail either....
cx500 If the present plan is put into action, I can see the track north of Tupper Lake being ripped up right away. Then the moaning will start, "no money in the budget this year to rehabilitate the middle section", and the so-called compromise will turn out to be smoke and mirrors.
I'm betting that the money won't be there to build the trail either....
Economic Impact Statement by Camoin Assoc @ http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/pdf/news/553641_2.pdf
Couple of things jumped out at me in the above linked statement: The original study was done in 1996 for "Empire State Development [ESD]. In 2014 the Dept of Environmental Conservation ordered a revision of the 1996 UMP concerning the 119 mile length of the 'rail corridor' the Adirondack Scenic RR is operating in two portions seperated by approx. 39 miles between Tupper Lake, and lake Placid, that portion of which was unable to carry the operational rail traffic.
Apparently, the 'corridor' between Tupper Lake and Lake Placid, via Big Moose Lake is problematic for a couple of reasons. The altitude at Big Moose is about 1135 ft (?) . According to the "History of the Corridor" [page 2 of the Economic Study] it was originally built in some 18 months around 1892 to reach the "Camps' of wealthy property owners and was then operated continuously by the New York Central til 1972, in 1974 the State of New York purchased it(the abandoned railroad). It was operated(leased to) by the Adirondack Railroad Corp which was in bankruptcy in 1977. The State acquired the rest of the lease in 1991. At that time the State required the 1991 UMP for the corridor from Remsen to Lake Placid. That UMP was finally approved in 1996. It was reopened in 2013,by a Public Hearing process...
The 'Comion Study' was commissiond in 2014 by the NY DEC. [From the lionked document] [snipped] "...Camoin Associates was hired by Empire State Development to provide the State with an economic impact analysis that would consider how each of the three scenarios would in-turn impact total sales,jobs,and earnings in New York State.This impact analysis is one of many factors to be utilized in preparation of the revisions to the UMP..." [snip]
Like a lot of the 'documentation processes' required these days, The results will 'favor' the end results required by the party who is paying for the study. {IMHO}
I am not faniliar with the local political thinking or politics in that part of NY State, but I am somewhat supicious when a government agency is moved to reurect a 'Study' from almost twenty years earlier...The Adirondack Scentic Preservation Trust seemed to have a 'plan' and was building and working towards a goal of re-establishing the full 1149 mile rail corridor between Remsen and lake Placid.
Call me suspicious, but the "Development" of a 'Mega-Resort' in the Tupper Lake seems to be a catalyst for thses events(?) The railroad is amajor artery in that area to move people in and out of the area in all weather conditions. When one looks at the road maps of the area, with the exception of the Interstate [ to the East][The road net appears to be non conducive to moving lots of fast moving traffic, safely, in that area. The existing roads seem to resemble a pictyure of malaria germs as they follow the contours of the terrain in that mountainous area.
As Larry (tree68) had indicated, money for the various aspects of the Corridor re-configuration is going to be a problem...Will the snowmobilers, and bicyclers be willing to pay fopr their recreation rnhancements?
Is the State of New York going to pony up all the needed funds? THe railroad required some seventeen bridges in the 39 mile gap, used to gain the high point of 1135 feet of altitude? Or will the State be willing to improve the road network that seems to be required to bring in the numbers of tourists to the area?
Where do the Land Developers fit into this picture? How much are they going to contribute to the infrastructure enhancement that will be needed top support their Mega Development ? There are an awful lot of 'moving parts' in theses scenarios to bring together; It will be the people who live in that area who will eventually bear the burden of their transportation needs, and the health of their tourist based economy, after the railroad has been take out of the picture, and the developers are off to their next 'opportunity'..
cx500If the present plan is put into action, I can see the track north of Tupper Lake being ripped up right away. Then the moaning will start, "no money in the budget this year to rehabilitate the middle section", and the so-called compromise will turn out to be smoke and mirrors.
Rail trails are really compatible with bicycle use, with the gentle grades making for easy travel. The same is less true for the slower pace of cross-country skiing, where it can turn into boring drudgery if going more than a couple of miles. Skiing is a lot more enjoyable if there are occasional gentle slopes to break the monotony.
If the present plan is put into action, I can see the track north of Tupper Lake being ripped up right away. Then the moaning will start, "no money in the budget this year to rehabilitate the middle section", and the so-called compromise will turn out to be smoke and mirrors.
John
Interesting how environmentalists include snowmobiles. Aren't they noisy and powered by 2-stroke engines that cause a lot of air pollution? Don't snowmobile drivers often chase down deer for amusement? Don't they go off the trail and cause damage to the undergrowth? Environmentalists. Yeah right, and having new roads to a "mega" resort will sure help the environment as well as all the gas stations and strip plazas that will be built for the people driving to the resort. Glad I left New York 20 years ago.
MidlandMikeIn what universe is cross-country skiing and snowmobiling a compatible use?
I have long contended that the suggestion that the trail would be used by cross country skiers telegraphs one of the "trail advocate's" true agendas - to get rid not only of the railroad, but of the snowmobiles on the corridor. Portions of the corridor pass through designated wilderness and primitive areas. I'm sure there is a constituency who feels that snowmobiles shouldn't be there, but due to the current corridor plan, they haven't been able to act on that.
I'm also convinced that the snowmobile community as a whole stopped listening when they heard that the tracks could come up. I get that the tracks are an impediment to sledding at the beginning and end of the season, but since they quit listening when they did, they haven't heard the statements from the "trail advocates" that foretell their being banned from the corridor (or enough of it to make it useless as a through trail).
What is renewed commitment to the remaining rail corridor? Have they contributed anything to the rail rehab?
The state actually has (and does) make some contribution to maintaining the corridor. Perhaps they'll start kicking in money for rehab - which they used to do in dribs and drabs.
It should also be noted that there is substantial opposition from the "environmental preservationists" to the planned resort in Tupper Lake, although the developer has won all of the court battles.
New York appears to be learning from its neighbour, Quebec. Quebec has been a leader in rails to trails, and their "Route Vert" (Green Route) has pumped millions upon millions of dollars into the Quebec economy over the past ten years. So much so that Quebec is now recognized throughout the first world as the go to destination for cycling. I can personally attest to it...I spend alot of time cycling on Quebec trails.. the trails are busy and well used and encourage healthy living. And if trains do make a comeback for shorthaul and distribution one day, the trails are there and can be converted easily enough... the roadbed is graded and all that's needed is for someone to put the track back into place.
I just received a statement from the rail operator which suggests the issue is not closed yet. This sounds like a good topic for TRAINS' editors to look at. NY State is the owner of the rails to Lake Placid, which has no regular air or Fpassenger rail links to the outside despite its staus as two time Winter Olympics venue and major center for Adirondack tourism and winter sports. Why a dual use of the corridor will not work here as it has elsewhere is hard to understand, as is renouncing any prospect of linking Lake Placid and saranac lake to NY Empire Service some day. One hopes the fight over this is not finished, it is such an awful outocome.
Here is the statement:
The New York State Department of Transportation (DOT) and Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) announced today, June 11, 2015 the State's decision to reopen the Remsen-Lake Placid Travel Corridor's Unit Management Plan with the intention of removing the railroad tracks north of Tupper Lake, running to Lake Placid. The corridor is part of the 141 miles of track on which the Adirondack Railway Preservation Society (DBA: Adirondack Scenic Railroad) operates and is working to preserve. Although the Railroad disagrees with the State's compromise position, the organization looks forward to an expanded operation and bringing train service to Tupper Lake, a town at the precipice of a revitalization and resurgence.
The ARPS has believed from the beginning of the review process that the original decision designated by the 1996 UMP was the correct decision. The selected alternative, option 6, states that the DOT and DEC will "permit rail uses over the entire length of the corridor, encourage compatible recreational trail uses." The process to decide the use of the Remsen - Lake Placid Travel Corridor was lengthy, thorough and led to a sensible future plan for the corridor. While the ARPS is disappointed that the various parties will soon be embarking on what will undoubtedly be another lengthy and costly process to potentially remove the tracks north of Tupper Lake, we look forward to working with the pertinent agencies to answer the question as to the best use and development of this wonderful asset south of Tupper Lake.
Over the past twenty-one years, the Adirondack Scenic Railroad has operated a successful and safe railroad which has been an integral part of heritage tourism in New York State. The railroad has served in excess of 1.3 million passengers and grosses over $1,200,000 in annual ticket sales, facts which are reported to several federal and state agencies. As a multimodal corridor (rails with trails), rail use also allows for interface between the train, hikers, bikers and canoeists, making New York State a leader and world class example in the concept of multimodal travel through a sensitive ecosystem.
The future of the Adirondack region depends on bringing people and business to the area from outside the Park and we cannot afford to eliminate any infrastructure which serves to attract tourists to the area. The Remsen - Lake Placid corridor is currently managed as a railway in the spring, summer and fall months and as a snowmobile trail in the winter months. The Adirondack Park has thousands of miles of hiking, biking and snowmobile trails, many of which will be accessible via train with a completed rail line. The Adirondack Park has one railroad, a piece of living and functioning utilitarian history, a protected historic landmark, which allows people of all walks of life to experience the beauty and thrill of our unique region.
MidlandMikeThe environmental commissioner said “The proposal will reinvigorate the economies of neighboring communities by implementing a comprehensive approach to recreational use of the Corridor including establishing a multi-use recreation trail from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid for hiking, biking, cross-country skiing, snowmobiling and other compatible uses and a renewed commitment to rail from Remsen to Tupper Lake,”
If that was true - thre wouldn't be a single town, county, or state in debt in this country.
Is anyone else getting a wet leg? Must be raining.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
The environmental commissioner said “The proposal will reinvigorate the economies of neighboring communities by implementing a comprehensive approach to recreational use of the Corridor including establishing a multi-use recreation trail from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid for hiking, biking, cross-country skiing, snowmobiling and other compatible uses and a renewed commitment to rail from Remsen to Tupper Lake,”
In what universe is cross-country skiing and sowmobiling a compatible use? What is renewed commitment to the remaining rail corridor? Have they contributed anything to the rail rehab? Will they compensate Adirondack Scenic for the rehab work they have done between Lake Placid and Saranac?
Larry (tree68) found the following linked article@
http://www.uticaod.com/article/20150611/NEWS/150619866/1994/NEWS?rssfeed=true
"State announces plan for Adirondack Scenic Railway Corridor"
by Elizabeth Cooper Posted Jun. 11, 2015 at 5:17 PM Updated at 7:19 PM
THe following was, I thought, an intersting statement: [snipped]"...Bethan Maher, executive director of the Adirondack Railway Preservation Society, which operates the Adirondack Scenic Railway trains from Utica to Big Moose, said her organization will fight to ensure that the rails go all the way to Lake Placid.
“Our mission has been and will continue to be to restoring rail service to Lake Placid and connecting the high peaks with Central New York and the Mohawk Valley,” she said.
If rail service goes only to Tupper Lake, which has less name recognition than Lake Placid, it would be “a significant blow to the potential ridership and the economic impact” of the railway, she said.
The group Adirondack Recreational Trail Advocates, however, applauded the trail plans, but was displeased with the plans to extend the track to Tupper Lake..."[snip]
Firelock76 One day they'll be sorry. And then they'll spend who knows how many millions to put it back. Your tax dollars at work.
One day they'll be sorry.
And then they'll spend who knows how many millions to put it back.
Your tax dollars at work.
The environmental lobby is only gaining power. Even today, it's difficult to envision rails being laid on an idle corridor, a difficult proposition anywhere, within the confines of the Adirondack Park. Once these are gone, they're sadly gone for good.
Sad day, but hardly a surprise in this country. Particularly when it's New York State and Albany is involved.
I wonder what the next step after the rails are lifted will be. There's no way that those that have been behind this scheme will rest. The snowmobilers better watch their backs, since they'll be next up and stand to lose what they already had anyways with the railroad there.
I'm not very familiar with this "mega resort", but such a loss if that comes to pass for both Lake Placid and Saranac Lake, that this asset will be destroyed that could've linked these two communities to it by a tourist railroad.
I'd love to think that one day they'll be sorry, but they'll likely be too busy with their next scheme for more than a handful of them to ever look back and lament about this decision that they played a role in allowing to happen.
The loss of Lake Placid as a destination will, in my estimation, be huge. Lake Placid has name recognition world-wide that Tupper Lake (still a very nice community, by the way) does not. It's not much different than if the Grand Canyon RR didn't go all the way to the Grand Canyon - who'd ride?
It's been my personal opinion that the "trail advocates" really don't want a trail - they want everyone out of their woods. When it comes time to look for funding for the trail, they'll be really hard to find.
It's not quite over yet - I think there's one more "hearing." I'm afraid, however, that their mind is made up. A huge loss for Adirondack tourism.
Murray Sad news: An historic rail line from Utica through the Adirondacks to Lake Placid will be partially converted to a bike path/snowmobile trail as part of a plan by the state Departments of Transportation and Environmental Conservation today. Rails used by a tourist train would remain in place to Tupper Lake, where a mega-resort is being planned, but be removed from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid, so the rail bed could be turned into the new multi-use path. This would end the use of the tourist train from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake. http://blog.timesunion.com/business/state-announces-plans-for-adirondack-rail-line-conversion-to-bikesnowmobile-path/66847/
AS an outsider, but somewhat interested party; I would guess that the DEC is in the process of whistlingh past the graveyard.... To my suspicions that the DEC is simply "pandering': FTA:"... Rails used by a tourist train would remain in place to Tupper Lake, where a mega-resort is being planned, but be removed from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid, so the rail bed could be turned into the new multi-use path. This would end the use of the tourist train from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake..."
Sort of sounds to me that the State Deptments(of NY) involved have written off the older resorts of Lake Placid, and Saranac Lake in favor of a promise to build a new mega resort. This will assure that those older resort areas will be 'choaked off' by this new, better, super-duper mega venture.
In previous Threads on this topic, there was mention made of the lack of updated infrastructure in this area. The current road net will require major investments to bring it to a condition that will not endanger motor traffic traveling into this area...Traffic that has helped support the Adairondack Scenic RR, and brought in tourists and their dollars to an area that benefited from those monies.
As Firelock 76 mentioned : Someday, they will regret this decision to do away with a major tourist destination, in favor of what is only a seasonal snowmobile activity.
I am also anxious to hear what tree68 has got to add to this discussion...
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