Bike Paths are usualy bult in suberban areas. There is conveince stores every 3-8 miles or so. The proposed Adirondack Bike Trail has miles and miles of nothing but wilderness unlike the Erie Canal trail which has a town every 10 miles or so. I dont see where the demand for the trail would come from. Furthermore some body could drop dead on the proposed Adirondack Park trail and there is NO fire or EMS out there to drag them out.
daveklepper There is no practical reason why a snowmobile trail for hiking at other times cannot be placed adjacent to the railroad, with proper fencing. Just money, design, and effert.
There is no practical reason why a snowmobile trail for hiking at other times cannot be placed adjacent to the railroad, with proper fencing. Just money, design, and effert.
There are numerous restrictions on construction activities in the Adirondack Park, especially in wilderness areas, which the railroad passes through. I have ridden the entire length of the corridor (some by train, some by railbike), and there are several areas where it would be necessary to add fill to low lying areas in order to create a path immediately adjacent to the RR right of way. That just ain't gonna happen in the Adirondack Park.
That does not mean there are not alternatives. One group has proposed an alternative way to connect Tupper Lake and Saranac Lake using existing side roads and logging roads. In addition, there is proposed amendment to the NYS constitution on the ballot this year which will make it easier to construct bicycle trails adjacent to roads in the park. Part of the ballot proposition reads:
The proposed amendment also will allow bicycle trails and certain public utility lines to be located within the width of specified highways that cross the forest preserve while minimizing removal of trees and vegetation.
I was not aware that such restrictions against building bike paths along roads in the Adirondack Park existed, though I am not surprised. But if passed, it creates another way to provide bicyclists a safer alternative than the shoulders of busy roads, and to do so without removing the rails. Bike paths can also be hiking paths, and in the winter they can be snowmobile or XC ski trails. With this lawsuit ruling, here's hoping that the state changes its strategy to rails WITH trails.
P.S. - I wonder what the folks behind ARTA think of this proposed amendment?
daveklepperSince this would be tourist, not business, travel, speed is not the main factor.
Indeed, and this is a point the "trail advocates" have tried to make hay with - noting that scheduled, common-carrier passenger service ended in 1965 (as did much passenger service), all the while ignoring that those riding to Lake Placid (and other points on the line) are riding for an entirely different purpose.
It's not likely you'll see winter operations along the line, at least unless the snowmobile business completely collapses, which I don't see happening.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
If the current line is completely restored, a reasonable overnight luxury tourist operation would be in order, and probably could be self-supporting if marketed properly. Since this would be tourist, not business, travel, speed is not the main factor. Arrangements with Amtrak for through service would be important, either with dedicated trains, possibly using GCT and not Penn, or switched to and from Amtrak at Utica. Even day trips would be possible. Obviously, Lake Placid is a much more marketable destination than Tupper Lake, and the fact that Adarondak Scenic has attracted some decent patronage to its current destination would indicate that Lake Placid would indeed be a successful operation. In winter, New Yorkers could enjoy a day of skiing with the overnight train substituting for a hotel before and after.
It is unfortunate that the tracks to Lake Placid from Utica are so out of alignment to the NYC area. A round trip NYC <> Albany <> Utica <> lake Placid is just too long. There is no rail connection but Lake Placid is just 30 crow miles from the A>B - Montreal route. That will never happen but if there was a connection that way to Lake Placid it would be a boom for an all year around resort.
tree68 groomer man The problem isn't ususually the snowmobiles themselves - it's the operators. I have a neighbor whose sled is reasonably quiet - but she loves to red-line it on a regular basis....
groomer man
The problem isn't ususually the snowmobiles themselves - it's the operators. I have a neighbor whose sled is reasonably quiet - but she loves to red-line it on a regular basis....
Snowmobiles use a Continuiously Variable Transmission system. CVT's are a torque sensing transmission and require a decent level of RPM's to become engaged. To extract maximum performance from the CVT, and thus the sled, the CVT is tuned to the power band of the the engine to which it is attached. The operation of CVT's for snowmobiles is easily tuned by the owner.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
groomer manLearn a little something about snowmobiles before you make statements about it.
K Scott Gudgeon Wrote:
There is an existing network of trails, seasonal roads and abandoned logging roads that can be developed into a first-class trail system that connects Lake Placid and Tupper Lake without removing any track.
Mudchicken, in my reading of what K. Scott G. wrote, the win-win doesn't involve SHARED ROW's, but rather, devoloping a trail system from interconnected existing trails, old logging roadsand seasonal roads, having the trails and the RR ROW being completely seperate.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
It doesn't take much to get the lawyers involved. "Risk" grows exponentially with people who think accountabilty is for other people, not them.
AREMA was asked to state a position on co-use about 10 years ago as a suggested guideline/ rule of thumb. After much discussion, it came down to liability and the final outcome was they cannot rationally co-exist in a designed environment. The matter and position statement died.
There is only so much that can be done to control stupid. (Gump got it right)
Yet another failure from a state that has long been at the forefront of driving this country into the ground.
mudchickenBe very carefull with that win-win comment with rails and trails co-existing. It only works under controlled circumstances. Far too often, irresponsible pedestrians ruin it for everyone else.
The amount of pedestrian or bicycle traffic with any trail proposal would be pretty miniscule.
This is not an ideal trail that will attract such users in any significant numbers and is only being driven through by ulterior motives from someone with one of the deepest bank accounts in the world that is buying his peace and quiet from the occasional sounds of trains.
I imagine the only concerns would be motorized vehicles with any trail option and I don't think that is being allowed with any proposal here that's on the table or could be considered eventually, outside of the winter snowmobile traffic when there's no rail traffic anyways.
I can't imagine the environmentalists allowing it to be opened up to ATV's, which would perhaps be the one trail user that would be able to make use of any sort of trail along this route in any sizable numbers.
Be very carefull with that win-win comment with rails and trails co-existing. It only works under controlled circumstances. Far too often, irresponsible pedestrians ruin it for everyone else.
I see the chances for major blow-ups in at least three places here in Colorado where trail planners/users have created major liabilities. Top of the list now is a conflict brewing between BNSF and Colorado DOW/State Parks at Barr Lake. One more "incident" and the gloves are off.
It's important to note that the APA's decision doesn't necessarily support the lifting of the rails, as such. What they determined was that the plan does not conflict with the Adirondack Park's master plan.
The game is still on, but the "trail advocates" are already celebrating, and will probably be on the line with spike pullers as the last train leaves town. They are that eager to see the rails gone.
I doubt you'll see them out there with rakes and shovels and implements of destruction when it comes time to actually build the trail, however.
Methinks what NYS officials have to be convinced of is that this entire effort is the brainchild of a few, mostly wealthy individuals who simply want everyone out of their woods.
Anonymous Sad news: An historic rail line from Utica through the Adirondacks to Lake Placid will be partially converted to a bike path/snowmobile trail as part of a plan by the state Departments of Transportation and Environmental Conservation today. Rails used by a tourist train would remain in place to Tupper Lake, where a mega-resort is being planned, but be removed from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid, so the rail bed could be turned into the new multi-use path. This would end the use of the tourist train from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake. http://blog.timesunion.com/business/state-announces-plans-for-adirondack-rail-line-conversion-to-bikesnowmobile-path/66847/
Sad news:
An historic rail line from Utica through the Adirondacks to Lake Placid will be partially converted to a bike path/snowmobile trail as part of a plan by the state Departments of Transportation and Environmental Conservation today. Rails used by a tourist train would remain in place to Tupper Lake, where a mega-resort is being planned, but be removed from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid, so the rail bed could be turned into the new multi-use path. This would end the use of the tourist train from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake.
http://blog.timesunion.com/business/state-announces-plans-for-adirondack-rail-line-conversion-to-bikesnowmobile-path/66847/
So here is the latest in the saga of a State that wants to rip up a key rail asset that can connects a famous resort community that does not seem to care to the national rail network:
My comment remains that this seems like such an unwise decision when a win-win rail and trail option exists, and when Lake Placid can retain an option not just for a tourist train but also potential connectivity to the national rail system and New York's State-supported Amtrak Empire service.
There were initially two railroads involved - the Mohawk & Malone (Webb's railroad) and the Chatequay - a narrow guage operation, as I recall.
My book is out of reach at the moment, so I can't speak to how either ROW was acquired - although I've found that the history of railroad lines sometimes overlooks the details therein. The M&M went to the NYC, the Chatequay to the D&H. Eventually NYC took over the D&H into Lake Placid, although both ran over the line for a while.
In many cases along the corridor, the adjacent landowner issue is moot, as the owner of the adjacent land is often NYS, and probably with a clearer path of ownership than the ROW.
I'd expect that any rail-oriented volunteer for this would already know the history of each segment of the line from its inception up to today, or could find it from either a book on the railroad or the local historical society. For this purpose, all that really matters is the precise name of the railroad that was being proposed and first acquired the land from whomever owned it at the time.
- Paul North.
Tagging on - IF you are a "buttonpusher", this is not a job for you. This will require serious research skills and the local GIS will probably be nothing more than a cartoon with a lot of guessing behind it. Be prepared to do a lot of serious digging and looking for data outside the courthouse to help your cause. Stuff may reside in the courthouse, but finding it will not be easy or intuitive if you don't know the history of the multiple lines in play up to Conrail Day one...
FInd and hire a lawyer who is experienced = has actually handled one of these kinds of cases, and won. Preferably won for the railroad, but even for the anti-rail clients would be OK - he/ she would likely know the issues involved in order to defeat the other side - and hope he/ she is not 'conflicted out' by that prior work and clients, opposite legal positions taken, and/ or current clients and cases.
Then the following might be a good assignment for an intelligent and personable volunteer: (it would help if they like or are interested in local history as well, and they may well enjoy that aspect of this mission)
Pay said lawyer a couple hundred to a couple thousand $ to have him/ her teach you about the 'magic words' to look for in the deeds, and something about New York land records, research, and procedures.
Alternatively, try a course on "Title Searching" such as this one (not an endorsement - no experience or knowledge about them / it) - although it may be way more than is needed for this project:
http://www.learntitlesearching.com/?gclid=CKnvhZHPk8kCFVA6gQod94UDPw
Most deeds are about 95% standard 'boilerplate' language - the main difference (obviously) is the 'legal description' = the bearings and distances, etc. that define and locate the piece of land that is the subject of the deed. So looking for the critical words is not hard, once you know where and what to look for.
New York land records - copies of the deeds - are kept in an county office known as something like the County Clerk, Recorder of Deeds, Register of Deeds, etc. (pretty much the same in all the states in the eastern US - MC and DC are the experts on western land records). See:
https://www.nylandrecords.com/nylr/NylrApp/index.jsp
http://publicrecords.onlinesearches.com/New-York-Land-Records-and-Deeds.htm
For more info, do a search for something like "new york state land records".
The location in the Clerk's office and format of the land records is likely different in each county for records as old as the ones involved here. They may still be bound in large old books, or digitized / copied into an electronic image, or transcribed into typewritten versions (a common activity during the Great Depression to provide meaningful work for unemployed people). A really fun (?) exercise - which may well occur here - is to have to read and comprehend the cursive handwriting of the old-time scriveners whose job it was to literally hand-write the deeds into the Deed Books (of course). Some had beautiful Palmer penmanship, others are just chicken-scratches - maybe they were hung-over from the night before, who knows.
The clerk's staff ought to be willing to provide some basic information, and show the volunteer how to do it - anything from 5 to 30 minutes is typical (depends on how busy they are). Beyond that, they may suggest - and/ or you may want to anyway - hire a professional title searcher/ "abstractor" to show you how and maybe assist or do some or all of the work for you.
The first part will be knowing the name of the railroad that first acquired the land from the private (or public) owners - typically one of those little local enterprises that blossomed and withered back in the late 1800's. Next, the most important - and difficult part - will be learning how to use the "Grantee Index" to find all the deeds/ grants to that railroad. You might get really lucky and find geographic map - usually in the Tax Assessment Office - with that reference information, too.
Copies of the deed pages can be made or obtained for a fee of from 20 cents to $1.00 a page. Fortunately for this purpose, not many pages will be needed - just the ones with the critical words, and a notation on them which owner they came from, and the deed book and page.
Figuring out the location of the land may be pretty daunting - but that's a whole 'nother topic, beyond the scope of this post. It won't matter until a favorable deed is found - then it'll be worthwile to find a local surveyor or maybe one of the title searchers - who knows how to read and sketch or plot the legal description and the location of that strip of land.
Finally: The land records/ copies of the deeds are public records !!! Perhaps counter-intuitively, deeds are generally not effective until they are recorded in a public place such as the Clerk's Office (except maybe as against someone who already knows about the deed from some other source). Anybody is entitled to walk in and look for and at the deeds, for any reason or no reason at all. But this kind of research is normal and completely legitimate. (So is snooping at your neighbor's deed to see what they actually paid for their house and property . . . ) So don't be worried about that.
That's enought for now. Again, if you want to pursue this, there's your 'road map', it's pretty much the same in any of the eastern states, and it might well be worthwhile. Feel free to contact me off-line if needed, although I caution you that I've never done any land title work in New York, so the usefulness of my help may be limited.
DC - I had to start working east to discover how spoiled rotten we were. Part of what makes the eastern railroads so frustrating are their relative ages, their laundry list of predecessors and how broke they were at the end. Things the eastern railroads did just before PC and CR were hatched would have gotten us fired.(Not that the western roads were perfect, by any measure....especially the bankruptcies)
Finding a declaration of out here is still a rarity, and with yours (and mine) ...the practice stopped after the outsiders started getting involved. (Witness in the past few weeks for me with the far west end of the Manter District and the Coffeyville Belt)...ICC/STB dockets are a mystery to so many and what the statutes say. Fighting off the hearsay, hysteria and WAG's taken as gospel, just to sort out the issues is a full time job.
So grateful for all that training on a relatively backwater division all those years ago.
Mr North and MC are the voices with experience about RR land titles. I have been there and done that but it was in the west where things were done with hindsight about previous mistakes so probably not as bad as describded in Mass. and NY. Some RR's kept good land records as mine did (during my time there) and the files were kept up about legal decisions so my job as ROW Agent was somewhat easier. And my RR (during my tenure) allowed me to file a Declaration of Abandonment with the counties stating that the following described parcels were no longer claimed by the RR.
+ 1
I wonder if New York was a stupid as Massachusetts when they bought their lines from the Penn Central Estate after the USRA left that property out of the fledgeling ConRail? ie- Do they have a handle on what they actually bought? (The railroads before Conrail knew what they had*, did NY fail to get the records like MA didn't - much less understand what they got?)
tree68 MidlandMike ...decided to give the Lake Placid-Tupper Lake segment one more year...
MidlandMike ...decided to give the Lake Placid-Tupper Lake segment one more year...
I have more thoughts and details, but this website is SNAFU and slow to respond again this morning, and I don't want to risk losing my post - contact me offline if you want more info on this.
Another opportunity to voice your concerns can be found on the Adirondack Park Agency's website: www.apa.ny.gov.
The comment period is open until December 18.
MidlandMike...decided to give the Lake Placid-Tupper Lake segment one more year...
I suspect it will be a year in which the pro-rail faction is very vocal, hopefully putting the "trail advocates" on the defensive.
For those who might not have checked Trains NewsWire later in the day, or can't get NewsWire, they reported that the state agency has decided to give the Lake Placid-Tupper Lake segment one more year, but then the rails are to be torn-up. ASR says the will continue to fight it.
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/11/12-adirondack
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