seppburgh2Could a "projectile" had hit the engineer or caused him to jerk the throttle forward while he was momenterally "knocked out" or disoriented by something hitting the cab window?
The alerter would have applied the brake in less than a minute if he were knocked out. Also, a slumping guy would likely knock the throttle forward - which is in the "off" direction.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
daveklepper KP. If I were in the USA right now, I would call my nearest FBI office with the suggestion that the scrape the exterior of the locomotive to see if there is chemical residue from the spray. There should be. The terrorists' plot was this. They expected that the SEPTA train would stop with the cab windshield shattered. Then the spray wouldl prevent the engineer from stoppinig the following train, which would plow into the stopped SEPTA train. But the engineer of the SEPTA train did not stop until the next station where passengers could detrain. He avoided a possibly much greater tragedy. KP, please call the FBI with your idea and experience.
KP. If I were in the USA right now, I would call my nearest FBI office with the suggestion that the scrape the exterior of the locomotive to see if there is chemical residue from the spray. There should be.
The terrorists' plot was this. They expected that the SEPTA train would stop with the cab windshield shattered. Then the spray wouldl prevent the engineer from stoppinig the following train, which would plow into the stopped SEPTA train. But the engineer of the SEPTA train did not stop until the next station where passengers could detrain. He avoided a possibly much greater tragedy.
KP, please call the FBI with your idea and experience.
...because everyone knows terrorists don't know about cab signal with train stop.
BaltACD Local news had a clip from the NTSB stating the train was running at 70 MPH until about 1 minute before the crash - in that minute the train accelerated from 70 to 106 before the emergency brake was applied. What happened in that minute?
Local news had a clip from the NTSB stating the train was running at 70 MPH until about 1 minute before the crash - in that minute the train accelerated from 70 to 106 before the emergency brake was applied.
What happened in that minute?
+1
A whole minute! More time than it would take for the alerter to apply a penalty brake application. Could it be the engineer was half asleep, reacting to a light sleep dream?
But it seems to be #3 (second in consist) that broadsided the pole: http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/img/photos/2015/05/13/ca/dc/Amtrak_Crash.JPEG-0f99a.JPG
I am with you, KP, and the spray was released by the same terrorists that produced the "projectiles" that damaged the SEPTA train windshield.
seppburgh2 and All (5-14):
Hear this out … and see if a weird thing is possible …
In January 1956 two Santa Fe RDC cars left Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal (LAUPT) for San Diego and within a few miles accelerated to a very, very high rate of speed and flipped at Redondo Junction, on a 15 M.P.H. curve. Dozens were killed. In investigative proceedings, both the engineer and fireman testified they BOTH were going through orange groves. Orange groves? The line went through an orange grove area of high speed running in Orange County, but there was no such thing a few miles out of LAUPT where the accident occurred.
A friend that just doesn’t get hoodwinked and his wife a few years ago purchased a Honda in Loma Linda, CA. In the elevator on the way up to financing he noticed a can of bug spray to eliminate flies on the wall. Because he WAS hoodwinked in financing, he believes the bug spray wasn’t bug spray at all, but a mild mind warping chemical that he breathed in.
With these two cases in mind as a common thread, is it possible the disaster of this thread was caused by some chemical in the air that had been released a few moments beforehand, for whatever reason, and it affected the engineer in a very negative way, who just happened to be passing by right then?
And, nobody would ever know what really happened, not even the NTSB …
Best,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
gardendance Deggesty What was the PRR's "reasonable alternative route"? As far as I know, there was none between Philadelphia and New York City The Trenton Cutoff, Morrisville-Ft Washington, then Whitemarsh Branch to near Allen Lane station, then Chestnut Hill West to North Philly. I had heard that's the double tracked electrified detour they used for World War II's Congressional Limited wreck. ...
Deggesty What was the PRR's "reasonable alternative route"? As far as I know, there was none between Philadelphia and New York City
What was the PRR's "reasonable alternative route"? As far as I know, there was none between Philadelphia and New York City
The Trenton Cutoff, Morrisville-Ft Washington, then Whitemarsh Branch to near Allen Lane station, then Chestnut Hill West to North Philly. I had heard that's the double tracked electrified detour they used for World War II's Congressional Limited wreck.
...
My PRR electrified map shows the branch connecting the Trenton Cutoff to the Chestnut Hill branch was a single track stretch, in an otherwise double track detour. This branch has been ripped up. The Trenton cutoff has been de-energized an is largely now single track, however, Google Earth shows much double track between Morrisville and the connection to SEPTA's West Trenton line.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
seppburgh2 I see a Conductor at his post.
I see a Conductor at his post.
The photograph was taken during the period when he was a Conductor. At that time he was working in the Midwest. In 2010 he was accepted into Engineer training and moved to Brooklyn.
From CNN this evening, the acceleration to 100+ occured in the last minute before the derailment. Could a "projectile" had hit the engineer or caused him to jerk the throttle forward while he was momenterally "knocked out" or disoriented by something hitting the cab window? Remember in the 60's and 70's it was sport to 'rocket' a train. Live through the experience on the EL riding a MU train home from Newark. Was darn glad the glass was not a DLW original.
Has any of the major news orgaizations picked up on this? The major is call for full blame on the engineer. Think there is more here with other trains being rocketed.
What does a murderer look like?
I have never driven a train but I drove trucks OTR for many years and still drive a route at night. Fatigue is a demon and unless you've worked a job where the consequences can be deadly you will never understand the hell this young man is going through.Say a prayer for his soul along with the rest
wanswheel Excerpt from NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/us/amtrak-derailment-philadelphia-engineer-brandon-bostian.html?_r=0 On the online forums of trainorders. com, a writer who signed many of his posts as “Brandon” routinely criticized railroad companies for not doing more to prevent accidents. Details strongly suggest the posts were by Mr. Bostian — the subjects and locations of the posts correspond to the places he lived and the jobs he has had at Amtrak... The posts criticize a lack of safeguards to protect against human error, pointing out how fatigue, bad communication and “cutting corners” could lead to crashes. When others were skeptical of new safety technology, or dismissed the idea that an experienced engineer could make a simple mistake, he was often quick to comment to the contrary.
Excerpt from NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/us/amtrak-derailment-philadelphia-engineer-brandon-bostian.html?_r=0
On the online forums of trainorders. com, a writer who signed many of his posts as “Brandon” routinely criticized railroad companies for not doing more to prevent accidents. Details strongly suggest the posts were by Mr. Bostian — the subjects and locations of the posts correspond to the places he lived and the jobs he has had at Amtrak...
The posts criticize a lack of safeguards to protect against human error, pointing out how fatigue, bad communication and “cutting corners” could lead to crashes. When others were skeptical of new safety technology, or dismissed the idea that an experienced engineer could make a simple mistake, he was often quick to comment to the contrary.
Having been involved in some general aviation (not airline) accident investigations, I have a problem with the media publishing such a statement. "Tried and convicted" in the media has become the norm, and such statements only serve to sway public opinion. They are not subjective and are intended to cast doubt among the public.
I agree this has taken a rather strange turn, but I prefer to wait for FACTS rather than speculate on thing published in the media.
Norm
That is really weird. It opens the door to a truely bizzare explantion for the wreck. Although it could just be irony.
Caseys Brakeman I think the most obvious design flaw discovered by this accident is the strength of the catenary poles. Perhaps future poles will be designed to break away when hit. -similar to traffic lights and signs... If that business car would have remained straightened out there might not have been any fatalities.
I think the most obvious design flaw discovered by this accident is the strength of the catenary poles. Perhaps future poles will be designed to break away when hit. -similar to traffic lights and signs...
If that business car would have remained straightened out there might not have been any fatalities.
I'm afraid the NTSB will recommend this. I think it's a horribly bad and expensive idea. The best idea is to keep the trains on the tracks, not plan for exceedingly rare wrecks.
MikeF90 BaltACD I asked the question early in the thread of how far the derailment site was from 30th Street Station. Individual that replied to the question stated that it was 3.4 miles from 30th Street. Outside of that, I have no knowledge of the Amtrak layout through the greater Philadelphia area. Brain Cramp Update: I mistakenly quoted the distance from the North Philly station. By drawing a Google Maps line it appears to be about 8.0 miles from 30th Street station, close to the ETT distance of 8.3.
BaltACD I asked the question early in the thread of how far the derailment site was from 30th Street Station. Individual that replied to the question stated that it was 3.4 miles from 30th Street. Outside of that, I have no knowledge of the Amtrak layout through the greater Philadelphia area.
Brain Cramp Update: I mistakenly quoted the distance from the North Philly station. By drawing a Google Maps line it appears to be about 8.0 miles from 30th Street station, close to the ETT distance of 8.3.
Johnny
daveklepper In the old days, the B&O and Reading would have vastly increased service, and the PRR would have directed people to the B&O and Reading. The B&O for Washington passengers and the Reading for Philadelphia passengers. The PRR would have probably loaned them some coaches to assist in providing extra service.
In the old days, the B&O and Reading would have vastly increased service, and the PRR would have directed people to the B&O and Reading. The B&O for Washington passengers and the Reading for Philadelphia passengers. The PRR would have probably loaned them some coaches to assist in providing extra service.
The B&O Jersey City to Washington route was CNJ to Bound Brook, RDG to Park Jct and B&O to DC. Can't speak for the remenants of the CNJ & RDG, but Park Jct to Baltimore is a capacity constrained single track line for CSX today.
During WW I and until 1926, the B&O was given rights into Penn Station, New York for (I think) 8 trains a day, each way to supplement the capacity issues on the PRR route.
BaltACDI asked the question early in the thread of how far the derailment site was from 30th Street Station. Individual that replied to the question stated that it was 3.4 miles from 30th Street. Outside of that, I have no knowledge of the Amtrak layout through the greater Philadelphia area.
Brain Cramp Update: I mistakenly quoted the distance from the North Philly station. By drawing a Google Maps line it appears to be about 8.0 miles from 30th Street station to the derailment site, close to the ETT distance of 8.3.
EDITED for the people still unclear ....
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The B&O used the Reading and CNJ to get to New York.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
gardendance Deggesty What was the PRR's "reasonable alternative route"? As far as I know, there was none between Philadelphia and New York City BaltACD Especially when one considers that 30th Street, his last stop, was slightly over 3 miles away from the derailment site and with his speed it would have been less than 3 minutes from releasing the brakes and proceeding from 30th Street. I had replied to another thread in which you also mentioned 3 miles. What's your source? I figure it's more like 7-10 miles.
BaltACD Especially when one considers that 30th Street, his last stop, was slightly over 3 miles away from the derailment site and with his speed it would have been less than 3 minutes from releasing the brakes and proceeding from 30th Street.
Especially when one considers that 30th Street, his last stop, was slightly over 3 miles away from the derailment site and with his speed it would have been less than 3 minutes from releasing the brakes and proceeding from 30th Street.
I asked the question early in the thread of how far the derailment site was from 30th Street Station. Individual that replied to the question stated that it was 3.4 miles from 30th Street. Outside of that, I have no knowledge of the Amtrak layout through the greater Philadelphia area.
While I certainly agree that being shot at is going to be distracting, that doesn't explain running 20+ MPH over the limit approaching the curve and double the limit through the curve. Unless he figured that it'd be harder to hit something going 100 MPH and forgot about the curve...
Maybe if he hit the curve at the TT speed for the track approaching the curve...
There is a pretty significant curve (at 2nd Ave, already mentioned) and he had to pass the North Philly station on the way, too. If there is video surveillance there, they may be able to get an idea of his speed through the station.
Zoo would be an impendiment, too - that curve is even sharper than where the derailment occured.
But, we won't know until we get a lot more facts.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Minor detail: there weren't any "oil cars" in the yard next to the accident. They are unplacated cars used for companies in the plastics and lubricant industries.
The windshield on the engineer's right was shattered by something hitting it, while the left was unscathed.
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