[Heated up the link for you]
Friday, January 31, 2014
Written by Bruce Kelly, Contributing Editor
See linked article @
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/bruce-kelly/if-crude-by-rail-why-not-water.html
Bruce, seems you were on top of that idea, early!
Just purchases 22 oz of '100% Pure California Sea Salt'
"From the sparkling shores of the Pacific...comes Diamond Crystal sea salt. Inspired by the delicious cuisene of the Napa Valley, these all-natural salt crystals will bring out the true flavors of your choicest ingredients."
Don't know if it is from any desalination projects and it is not Corinthian.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Over the years theere have been proposals to tow icebergs from the Arctic down the Pacific Coast to be used for fresh water supply in California and the adjoining states.
Maybe it's time to build the Alaska-Canada rail link and ship the ice by reefer!
PS.my suggestion is best taken with a large grain of salt (a by-product of desalinization)
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
DSchmitt California goes through cycles of drought followed heavy rains and snow fall (in the mountains) and an abundance of water. It is quite likely before much could be done to bring water in by pipe or by rail, there will be the possibly of masive flooding in many areas of the State. The State's problems are primairly caused by the inability tp store enough water in times of plenty for use in the lean times.
California goes through cycles of drought followed heavy rains and snow fall (in the mountains) and an abundance of water. It is quite likely before much could be done to bring water in by pipe or by rail, there will be the possibly of masive flooding in many areas of the State.
The State's problems are primairly caused by the inability tp store enough water in times of plenty for use in the lean times.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Um how much petro are we going to burn to move h2o?
BaltACD Ship Boston's and New Englands snow!
Ship Boston's and New Englands snow!
Bring people and industry were the water is like to the Miss River and the Great Lakes.Not water to the people that would abuse it. Matter of fact Great Slave Lake in Canada is devoid of people and sparcly setteled
Murphy Siding If you're going to have to take water to a treatment plant, you might as well take salt water to a treatment plant and save the 2000 miles rail shipment.
If you're going to have to take water to a treatment plant, you might as well take salt water to a treatment plant and save the 2000 miles rail shipment.
I agree, but I wasn't addressing the practicality of the water train, but rather narig01's saying humans can't drink the water from an oil tank car.
However the practicality can change. If the oil tank cars have to get cleaned anyway, and I don't know if oil tank cars need cleaning, and the water treatment facility's reservoir is between the refinery that's producing the oil and the place to which they deliver the oil.
But those are several requirements unlikely to line up.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
Bruce Kelly Note that I made it clear that WBR is not going to solve all of CA's drought conditions, but could at least bring some measure of relief to some of the hardest hit areas. Nodoby should try crunching numbers to figure out how many tanks cars or how many trains per day it would take to maintain a normal/average level of water consumption throughout the state. This would be an emergency/relief-based operation capable of only limited impact. And it's nothing new. In the past, WBR has been used to combat drought situations in Australia, Israel, India, and even Illinois.
Note that I made it clear that WBR is not going to solve all of CA's drought conditions, but could at least bring some measure of relief to some of the hardest hit areas. Nodoby should try crunching numbers to figure out how many tanks cars or how many trains per day it would take to maintain a normal/average level of water consumption throughout the state. This would be an emergency/relief-based operation capable of only limited impact. And it's nothing new. In the past, WBR has been used to combat drought situations in Australia, Israel, India, and even Illinois.
Bruce,
The 49 gallons per person per day was the tightest water ration that I remember for a moderately large water district in my almost 6 decades of living in California. It is nowhere near a normal consumption level, though would be a bit easier with low flow toilets and showers.
WBR may have its place in the California drought, but I'd guess it would be for a relatively limited portion of the state. There's just too many people living here to make WBR useful for the whole state.
A quick comparison - the Poseidon plant under construction in Carlsbad should produce 50,000 acre-feet per year, this is the equivalent of 18 trains per day carrying 10,000 tons of water.
- Erik
challenger3980Portland, OR still does draw water out of the Bull Run reservoir system, but those lakes are OFF LIMITS to the general public, only a few guided tours per year.
The lake I refer to is Ontario - it'd be a little hard to limit access...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
To read the full context of last year's commentary on water by rail at Railway Age, go here:
Following the RA piece, we heard from one railcar consultant who estimated a cost of $6,000 to $8,000 (per car) to blast and reline the interior of existing DOT-111s. When I wrote the piece, the notion of utilizing DOT-111s retired from crude service was in the back of my mind, but RA Editor in Chief Bill Vantuono jumped right in and said those cars should indeed be transitioned into water service.
The chairman of one of the Class I railroads serving California told me a panel has been formed to explore WBR; one challenge has been to figure out how to cover its costs. After seeing the kind of money that California has recently allocated to drought relief, and knowing that delivery of water to municipalities, farms, and store shelves in California is already a for-profit business, you'd think someone could figure out how to pool the start-up funds and get WBR rolling to those who need it most and/or are willing to pay for it.
tree68 BaltACD In our lives in the US and North America in general (includes Canada) we have taken clean, safe water for granted. Indeed. I live just a few miles from billions of gallons of fresh water. One village near here used to take water direct from the lake, with only filtering and minimal treatment before it entered their water mains. And they got awards for the quality of their water...
BaltACD In our lives in the US and North America in general (includes Canada) we have taken clean, safe water for granted.
Indeed. I live just a few miles from billions of gallons of fresh water. One village near here used to take water direct from the lake, with only filtering and minimal treatment before it entered their water mains. And they got awards for the quality of their water...
Don't know if they still do, but in 1965 Lake George, NY did that. The lake was so clear you could clearly see the bottom through 30 feet of water.
[/quote]
Portland, OR still does draw water out of the Bull Run reservoir system, but those lakes are OFF LIMITS to the general public, only a few guided tours per year.
It is about the Best water in the country. I'll bet the Fishin is GREAT, but I'll NEVER know.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Let's run some numbers... Train size of 100 cars with 104 tons each works out to 2,500,000 gallons. Assume 25,000,000 people in area served by the water trains (this is less than the population of alifornia). Ten trains a day will get 1 gallon of water person per day. The strictest rationing the I recall for a large water district was 49 gallons a day per person in Marin Count in 1977. 490 trains per day doesn't sound practical.
The flaw in your logic is that you are calculating TOTAL water consumption, and using that figure as what needs to be transported in. California's inadequate water supply simply needs to be SUPPLIMENTED, NOT REPLACED, sure California would LOVE to get that much MORE water supplied, that is not what is needed.
Norm
BaltACDIn our lives in the US and North America in general (includes Canada) we have taken clean, safe water for granted.
gardendance narig01 You can not use tank cars that have been used to haul oil or other chemicals to haul water for human or any other food grade uses. (Like irrigation water or animals use) . Food grade tanks can only be used to haul what we eat and drink. Once something goes in the tank that is not consumable like oil or chemicals you can not use it for food, (or water). Rgds IGN There's no need to use it directly for potable water. You can use it for the intake to a water treatment plant.
narig01 You can not use tank cars that have been used to haul oil or other chemicals to haul water for human or any other food grade uses. (Like irrigation water or animals use) . Food grade tanks can only be used to haul what we eat and drink. Once something goes in the tank that is not consumable like oil or chemicals you can not use it for food, (or water). Rgds IGN
There's no need to use it directly for potable water. You can use it for the intake to a water treatment plant.
rrnut282 Call me crazy, but I think economics would justify a pipeline long before 490 daily trains. Though, that also should justify electrication of the mainline at those numbers, just so they could maintain headway between trains.
Call me crazy, but I think economics would justify a pipeline long before 490 daily trains. Though, that also should justify electrication of the mainline at those numbers, just so they could maintain headway between trains.
I don't think you're crazy, and I would be really, really surprised if economics would justify trains over a pipeline. The one exception would be a much smaller population needing emergency water where there was already sufficient track capacity and the emergency was expected to be short lived.
For an area near the coast, desalinizing water seems to be the way to go.
In our lives in the US and North America in general (includes Canada) we have taken clean, safe water for granted.
Convicted OneIt's likewise "disturbing" to see bad history tryin g to repeat. [the way the ambitions of people who will NEVER be happy have already conspired to take water away from one "good cause" and subvert it into their "good cause" just because they see theirs as more deserving.]
Many beleive that the next great wars in this world will not be fought over oil - but for water.
One of the upcoming generations will eventually have to make some hard decisions about where people will be allowed to live. Probably won't be any of the current ones, but it will have to be done some day.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
narig01You can not use tank cars that have been used to haul oil or other chemicals to haul water for human or any other food grade uses. (Like irrigation water or animals use) . Food grade tanks can only be used to haul what we eat and drink. Once something goes in the tank that is not consumable like oil or chemicals you can not use it for food, (or water). Rgds IGN
There's something about 490 trains a day in each direction just carrying water (and empties) that gets my attention. Just imagine all those trains in addition to the current traffic! How many tracks would that require? And would the Zephyr still be way late?
Or we could fly the water in. How many planes would be needed @ 25 million gal. daily?
See? Sometimes physics can be fun.
Dr D I like the Arabic idea! Oil rich Sheikhs going after ice - going to Antarctica and capturing "iceburgs" then towing them in for the fresh water. What we need is to "haul the ice by ship" - get it from the pole while it lasts - nature's fresh water freezer. Send it by ship to California - if it melts its still water - just use ships untainted by chemicals and oil! No pipeline spills either! Doc.
I like the Arabic idea!
Oil rich Sheikhs going after ice - going to Antarctica and capturing "iceburgs" then towing them in for the fresh water. What we need is to "haul the ice by ship" - get it from the pole while it lasts - nature's fresh water freezer.
Send it by ship to California - if it melts its still water - just use ships untainted by chemicals and oil!
No pipeline spills either!
Doc.
And if they sink - meh!
As for shiping ater from the Mississippi or Great Lakes, the energy requirements of pumping over the Continental Divide would dictate running a level tunnel from wherever the water is collected to California. This would be within the bounds of current technology, but the cost would be a deal killer.
The energy requirements for reverse osmosis is about the same as pumping water over a 3,000' summit. This would be about the same as shipping by rail a bit 100 miles on an FEC flat main line (energy includes empty return trip).
garyla Think of it all as delayed punishment for Horace Stoneham's S. F. Giants trying to slow down Maury Wills by soaking the basepaths before the 1962 NL playoffs vs. the Dodgers.
Of the crime of Walter O'Malley, reviled betrayer of Brooklyn.
The Duke, Gil and Peewee
Convicted One garyla But I don't recall the last time I saw anyone hosing off a sidewalk or driveway around Los Angeles; it has to have been years. true, I left the lower west coast in 2003. But the garden hoses were still gushing back then garyla This may not be how it worked out, but that was how it was sold, When I lived in the Bay Area, they were restricting your right to water lawns and wash cars based upon your house address (even-odd, etc) ...So much for "low impact" forecasting. The Devil in the details that caught my fascination was that scarce water was being siphoned out of Northern California reserves to serve Southern California needs. Northern Californians were being forced to conserve, while the beneficiaries of the aforementioned siphoning had no idea that water was in short supply. Evidently someone had decided that Southern California had become "Too big to fail" ?
garyla But I don't recall the last time I saw anyone hosing off a sidewalk or driveway around Los Angeles; it has to have been years.
true, I left the lower west coast in 2003. But the garden hoses were still gushing back then
garyla This may not be how it worked out, but that was how it was sold,
When I lived in the Bay Area, they were restricting your right to water lawns and wash cars based upon your house address (even-odd, etc) ...So much for "low impact" forecasting.
The Devil in the details that caught my fascination was that scarce water was being siphoned out of Northern California reserves to serve Southern California needs. Northern Californians were being forced to conserve, while the beneficiaries of the aforementioned siphoning had no idea that water was in short supply.
Evidently someone had decided that Southern California had become "Too big to fail" ?
Think of it all as delayed punishment for Horace Stoneham's S. F. Giants trying to slow down Maury Wills by soaking the basepaths before the 1962 NL playoffs vs. the Dodgers.
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