The only water I know of east of Los Angeles is the Colorado River, which has been sucked almost completely dry by the time it reaches Yuma, AZ. The Salton Sea, east of San Diego, would require a desalination plant in order to be drinkable -- and there's not really much water in it, either. Legal battles over Colorado River water allocation have been going on for several years.
The lakes and rivers cited by gardendance are not enough water for one days' demand by the Los Angeles area.
Lake Arrowhead, Silverwood Lake Recreational Area, Mojave River near Victorville, Whitewater River near Palm Springs, Lake Perris State Recreational Area, Lake Elsinore, Canyon Lake.
I'm not saying the state isn't already using that water, but those lakes and rivers are east of Los Angeles and still in California. I stand by my statement that perhaps Israel might not have much nearby fresh water, and so may need desalinization more than California.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
Really? I can't see it!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Lemme referees. If you go east from California's coast, which I think has its most populated areas, especially Los Angeles, eventually you'll find water, some of which is in California.
GardendanceIf you go east from California eventually you find water, some of which is in California.
Charitably, where can you go east from California and find California?
Of course, technically, if you go far enough east, you'll go all the way around to the west coast of California. But you'll assuredly find water before you get there that way.
DeggestyAnd, building a home in a river's flood plain should be forbidden--unless the builder accepts full responsibility for flood damage.
Flood Plain??? In Bismarck some people built their homes in the Missouri River and then complained when they had to let extra water out of the dam.
BroadwayLion LION knows that the Hudson Canyon is quite a bit larger and deeper than the Grand Canyon (albeit most of the Hudson Canyon is deep in the Atlantic Ocean. Even there it is carved deeply by the flow from the Hudson River. LION saw no such coresponding canyon for the Colombia River, ergo, it doesn't have all that much water in it. Certainly not enough to supply California.
LION knows that the Hudson Canyon is quite a bit larger and deeper than the Grand Canyon (albeit most of the Hudson Canyon is deep in the Atlantic Ocean. Even there it is carved deeply by the flow from the Hudson River. LION saw no such coresponding canyon for the Colombia River, ergo, it doesn't have all that much water in it. Certainly not enough to supply California.
Another thing to consider in addition to, and probably related to, tectonic motion: volcanoes. I bet it's been a while since a volcano erupted near the Hudson River, but I'm sure there have been several recent, even in human lifespans, eruptions both on land and under water near the Columbia. Regardless of water flow or lack thereof, a good volcano or earthquake probably helps fill in a budding canyon.
Does your fancy web page show any other submarine canyons around the Pacific's ring of fire?
Yes, Doug is right: almost every large municipality has zoning laws, some of which seem (to some people) to be absolutely ridiculous.
In times of drouth, municipalities are certainly justified in declaring that the non-essential use of water be curtailed. On the other hand, one can wonder about municipalities in water-scarce areas declaring that everyone's lawn should be kept green--one case in point: a few years back, a woman in Provo, Utah, was at least subjected to harassment (I have a memory that she was prosecuted) because she did not water her lawn. However, if one changes his lawn from water-thirsty to one that requires little water (not a cheap way to go), there is approval.
And, building a home in a river's flood plain should be forbidden--unless the builder accepts full responsibility for flood damage.
Johnny
ouibejamn challenger3980 A MUCH more Realistic AND COST EFFECTIVE solution would be for California (and other water short areas) to sincerely limit population growth and ACCEPT that where they live So you are suggesting that we pass laws saying where people can and cannot live? Considering that railfan sites are heavily dominated by conservative old men, this suggestion for more government regulation is akin to "man bites dog". More seriously I do think that desalination has a future, especially considering that the Northwestern states don,t consider the Columbia River "surplus water" anymore, whether it moves by canal, rail, barge, or on the wings of angels.
challenger3980 A MUCH more Realistic AND COST EFFECTIVE solution would be for California (and other water short areas) to sincerely limit population growth and ACCEPT that where they live
So you are suggesting that we pass laws saying where people can and cannot live? Considering that railfan sites are heavily dominated by conservative old men, this suggestion for more government regulation is akin to "man bites dog". More seriously I do think that desalination has a future, especially considering that the Northwestern states don,t consider the Columbia River "surplus water" anymore, whether it moves by canal, rail, barge, or on the wings of angels.
If You are not aware of it, we already DO, Pass Laws saying where people can, and can not live. Land use zoning laws, Urban Growth Boundries are just a couple of examples of that. My Sister has 23 ACRES of Billiard Table Flat, Open land, near North Powder, OR, that they can not even put a single house on. In other areas, Multi-Family housing is required, and single Family homes are prohibited by zoning rules, so we already do have those laws about where people are allowed to live, or not live, nothing new about that. The purpose of zoning laws is to get the best use from a piece of property, how would prohibiting Lawns and swimming pools be any different? It would be the same, just getting the best possible use of a limited resource, in this case it would be WATER, rather than Land.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Does tectonic motion mean anything? I think the continental plates head away from the Atlantic and towards the Pacific, which if true would help Atlantic Rivers have bigger canyons into their ocean than Pacific flowing rivers.
BroadwayLion If other nations do it (Israel for 40% of its drinking water) we can do it too, but there is payment to be made, it is not free. It uses energy, takes up space, and costs money. But a guy has gotta drink you know. Well, LION almost NEVER drinks water, Him drinks Diet Pepsi! : )
If other nations do it (Israel for 40% of its drinking water) we can do it too, but there is payment to be made, it is not free. It uses energy, takes up space, and costs money. But a guy has gotta drink you know.
Well, LION almost NEVER drinks water, Him drinks Diet Pepsi! : )
BroadwayLion Well, LION almost NEVER drinks water, Him drinks Diet Pepsi! : )
I bet a large percentage of that Diet Pepsi is water.
ouibejamn BroadwayLion California is up S Creak without a paddle. But not to worry, once the land is fully dried out it will be too light to suport itself and will fall off into the Pacific Ocean. So much for the Liberal voting base, eh? ROAR Spoken like a true christian, eh "Brother".
BroadwayLion California is up S Creak without a paddle. But not to worry, once the land is fully dried out it will be too light to suport itself and will fall off into the Pacific Ocean. So much for the Liberal voting base, eh? ROAR
Spoken like a true christian, eh "Brother".
Eh?
Welcome to the Forums. You got this here LION fairly well pegged fairly quickly. Your sarcasm and humor detectors need a little fine tuning, But LION has been to California (back in the '60s, him was in the Navy, you know) but him never much liked the place all that much. Yeah, the LION's political whit is sharp and pointed, but Railroads, Water, Energy and yes, even religion is nothing but politics.
Stop by the zoo, we got some extra wildebeests in the freezer.
challenger3980California is Welcome to the water from the Columbia River, AS LONG as they take it 15 miles WEST of Astoria, Oregon.
LION got the gist of your post without looking at the map, but him did look at the map anyway. So the Columbia Estuary? LION is from the city (NYC for those of you west of the Hudson) and him knows that the Hudson is saline almost up to Kingston, and Tidal all the way to Albany.
How much of the Columbia is Saline and/or tidal.
Desalinazation is the way for California to go, and we have a great abundance of energy in this country, Coal, Oil, Wind, Corn and if people would stop wetting their pants over it, nuclear. We CAN DO IT, after all, we are an exceptional people living in an exceptional country.
Leo_AmesEveryone wants their cake, and to eat it too. Nobody wants to make the sacrifice. They want the water, they just also want it to be magically delivered into their homes and businesses without anything happening in order to actually make it possible.
Everyone knows electricty appears magically at the outlet, water magically at the faucet.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
rdettmer there must be a way to get it cheaper from the pacific ocean. this day an age they should of figure out how to get the salt out of it somehow.
there must be a way to get it cheaper from the pacific ocean. this day an age they should of figure out how to get the salt out of it somehow.
They do know how, but it takes a lot of money both to build, maintain, and operate a water distillation plant.
You're back to the dilemma just mentioned. The same people will complain about every aspect of it, while not wanting their own water consumption restricted in any way.
For instance, these things need a huge amount of electricity. That means burning something, wind turbines, solar panels, or the most logical, nuclear power.
Everyone wants their cake, and to eat it too. Nobody wants to make the sacrifice. They want the water, they just also want it to be magically delivered into their homes and businesses without anything happening in order to actually make it possible.
Deep enough that they can take plenty of water without worrying about running dry.
challenger3980A MUCH more Realistic AND COST EFFECTIVE solution would be for California (and other water short areas) to sincerely limit population growth and ACCEPT that where they live
challenger3980AS LONG as they take it 15 miles WEST of Astoria,
Got it! How deep is it eight miles off shore?
Norm
Norm48327Folks up there may have other ideas.
+1000
Currently, some of the environmentalists are trying to get some of the dams removed by claiming that they have decimated the Columbia salmon runs, while simultaneously decrying any fossil fuel port construction claiming that BNSF will spill coal and oil into the Columbia, killing all the bountiful fish.
Norm 48327 wrote:
And I wish you luck getting your hands on it. Folks up there may have other ideas.
I am almost 50 years old, and have been hearing Califorians ideas for getting the Columbia River, since I was a Kid, usually it involves canals and/or pipelines.
California is Welcome to the water from the Columbia River, AS LONG as they take it 15 miles WEST of Astoria, Oregon. This is the first time I have ever read of the idea of hauling it by rail.
A MUCH more Realistic AND COST EFFECTIVE solution would be for California (and other water short areas) to sincerely limit population growth and ACCEPT that where they live, having GREEN LAWNS and SWIMMING POOLS in every backyard is not realistic, yeah right we are talking about California, Guess I will go start writing my list to Santa, that is much more likely to be a worthwhile effort.
Bruce Kelly Great Lakes? Nothing to spare west of the Mississippi? The closest, most abundant, and most logical source of fresh water that also happens to be fronted by more than a hundred miles of Class I railroad on both sides, with connections leading straight to California, would be the lower/western end of the Columbia River. Even after churning past several hydro dams and being siphoned to irrigate the Inland Northwest's booming ag business, there's plenty of unused H20 emptying right into the ocean. http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/386_flows_of_largest_u_s_rivers.html Two key factors to making WBR feasible are minimizing the travel distance and minimizing the impact on other traffic. BNSF from the north bank of the Columbia and UP from the south bank could move water down into California at half the distance (or less) than it would take to move water from the Great Lakes. BNSF and UP lines between the PNW and California are presently not as congested as their east-west lines through Spokane, Hinkle, Barstow, etc.
Great Lakes? Nothing to spare west of the Mississippi?
The closest, most abundant, and most logical source of fresh water that also happens to be fronted by more than a hundred miles of Class I railroad on both sides, with connections leading straight to California, would be the lower/western end of the Columbia River. Even after churning past several hydro dams and being siphoned to irrigate the Inland Northwest's booming ag business, there's plenty of unused H20 emptying right into the ocean.
http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/386_flows_of_largest_u_s_rivers.html
Two key factors to making WBR feasible are minimizing the travel distance and minimizing the impact on other traffic. BNSF from the north bank of the Columbia and UP from the south bank could move water down into California at half the distance (or less) than it would take to move water from the Great Lakes. BNSF and UP lines between the PNW and California are presently not as congested as their east-west lines through Spokane, Hinkle, Barstow, etc.
BroadwayLionCalifornia is up S Creak without a paddle. But not to worry, once the land is fully dried out it will be too light to suport itself and will fall off into the Pacific Ocean. So much for the Liberal voting base, eh? ROAR
SleeperN06 Interesting thread, I just wonder what they would do with all the salt if they filtered the water from the ocean. I’m just not sure there would be enough uses for that much salt. I guess the process would have to remain at the ocean side, but wouldn’t the salt concentration increase in the water around the plants?
The optimal site for a desal plant is on the coast, so the concentrated brine would be discharged back into the ocean. Ideally a desal plant would be co-sited with a power plant to allow the two facilities to share intake and discharge plumbing, which would also dilute the brine to closer to seawater salt concentrations.
My understanding is that the optimal discharge for a reverse osmosis plant is about twice the salinity of the intake water.
- Erik
"BTW: What State Capitol is on the Colorado River."
Austin, Texas, but not the same Colorado River.
cacole Federal courts have been involed in a lengthy lawsuit over Colorado River water for years and years, with no judgement rendered that is going to satisfy all the litigants; so there's no chance of California ever getting more water from the Colorado.
Federal courts have been involed in a lengthy lawsuit over Colorado River water for years and years, with no judgement rendered that is going to satisfy all the litigants; so there's no chance of California ever getting more water from the Colorado.
Look at the Google overheads. The Colorado is DRY long before it gets to the sea. You can see the chanels that divert Colorado water to municipal and agracultural uses, and these too are DRY before they get to the sea.
BTW: What State Capitol is on the Colorado River.
samfp1943 [Heated up the link for you] Friday, January 31, 2014 "If crude by rail, why not water?" Written by Bruce Kelly, Contributing Editor See linked article @ http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/bruce-kelly/if-crude-by-rail-why-not-water.html Bruce, seems you were on top of that idea, early!
[Heated up the link for you]
Friday, January 31, 2014
Written by Bruce Kelly, Contributing Editor
See linked article @
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/bruce-kelly/if-crude-by-rail-why-not-water.html
Bruce, seems you were on top of that idea, early!
Sure it *can* be done, if not enough for Arag, then at least enough to drink, and you can always use those old DOT 111 cars for that. Just rinse them out a bit
Seriously, the problem is shipping costs. Who is going to pay the freight on a train load of water. Oil has value, well water has value too, but for people used to free and/or cheap water charging them by the gallon is going to cause a revolt in that revolting state. ROAR
Murphy Siding Perhaps during the flooding periods, the trains could be used to ship water out of California and take it to the Great Lakes, or maybe the Mississippi River?
You do not know what you are asking, porting water from one watershed to another. WE had a plan to build a canal from Lake Sakakaweah to the eastern part of the state. CANADA had a caniption! (East side of the state flows north into Canada, you know).
Devils Lake is now rising, it has taken over farms (farmer must still pay the taxes on land that is under the lake) roads have been elevated. Railroads have been elevated. We tried to build a diversion to dump lake water into the Sheyanne River, Canada Had coniptions. (Devils Lake is a Saline lake with no natural outlet).
Of course if nothing is done it will over flow into Stump Lake, (no wait, it already did that, Stump Lake is now part of Devils Lake) and if it rises any higher it will flow int, you, you guessed it, the Sheyanne River! Then what will the Canadians say.
Train Water into California. And where will that water come from? The Grape Lakes? Nothing west of the Mississippi has anything to spare. (Gotta use all of the extra water for Fracking--and no, you cannot use salt water for that!)
Hey we got a small lake on our property. Selling the water for fracking earns us more money that selling the land. And we can sell the water every year, you can only sell the land once.
California is up S Creak without a paddle. But not to worry, once the land is fully dried out it will be too light to suport itself and will fall off into the Pacific Ocean. So much for the Liberal voting base, eh?
BTW: Water IS politics, and always has been in the west.
BaltACD Just purchases 22 oz of '100% Pure California Sea Salt' "From the sparkling shores of the Pacific...comes Diamond Crystal sea salt. Inspired by the delicious cuisene of the Napa Valley, these all-natural salt crystals will bring out the true flavors of your choicest ingredients." Don't know if it is from any desalination projects and it is not Corinthian.
Just purchases 22 oz of '100% Pure California Sea Salt'
"From the sparkling shores of the Pacific...comes Diamond Crystal sea salt. Inspired by the delicious cuisene of the Napa Valley, these all-natural salt crystals will bring out the true flavors of your choicest ingredients."
Don't know if it is from any desalination projects and it is not Corinthian.
Hopefully, they filter out the debris from the Fukushima reactor disaster.
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