Norm48327So, we need a sign to tell one what should be common sense?
Interesting crash video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EuJVQgBGXw
We keep going back to "There should be a sign saying ...." You can put up any sign you want, but how are you going to get drivers to pay attention to them? As for the one that said "$50 FINE FOR FAILING TO READ THIS SIGN", I can hear the defense: "Sure, I read the sign, but I kept going anyway." You can replace "READ" with "HEED", but what good would any sign do if drivers don't bother to read.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Euclid This was cited as a common reaction in the crash mentioned a few posts back. The NTSB said that many times when people did properly refrain from entering the crossing before it was entirely clear ahead, they were urged forward by people blowing their horns behind, thinking that the stopped driver was distracted and failed to see traffic pulling away ahead. So there is that peer pressure element further reinforcing the general misunderstanding the traffic principle involved.
And, if you're in a multi-lane situation, if you leave enough room for someone to cut in from the other lane, they will...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
WARNING
STOPPING ON TRACKS
IS A CAPITAL OFFENCE
ENFORCED
BY THE
LOCOMOTIVE
NO APPEALS ALLOWED
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BroadwayLion WARNING STOPPING ON TRACKS IS A CAPITAL OFFENCE ENFORCED BY THE LOCOMOTIVE NO APPEALS ALLOWED
Now THAT is the BEST sign suggestion yet, clear, to the point, just a bit long in the wording, but in this case that is excusable.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Euclidwhy not have the trapped vehicle detection system simply raise the gates so the vehicle can escape?
You raise the gates and everyone else waiting will go through the crossing. Then we'll have several cars hit by the train instead of one.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I bow to you Sir. Best one yet.
Norm
zugmann Euclid why not have the trapped vehicle detection system simply raise the gates so the vehicle can escape? You raise the gates and everyone else waiting will go through the crossing. Then we'll have several cars hit by the train instead of one.
Euclid why not have the trapped vehicle detection system simply raise the gates so the vehicle can escape?
I see your point. You let someone out and someone will come in.
Thinking along the sign-route, there are also another approach more physical. Here in Central PA, there is a sharp left ramp off Rt. 283 East for traffic to continue (1/2 up the road from the turn off is an end-of-highway 'T' type cross road with a Wendies right in the middle of the T, yes they do have a frontal tractor trailer drive through.) The sharp curve of the ramp is such it cauese loads to shift and about 3 to 4 time a year a truck will end up on its side (PennDot maintains a fine green lawn as a landing pad.)
Why I bring this up is PennDot has signs going back two mile warning trucks of the curve. At the start of the ramp they have installed a number of rumble strips, spaced wide to narrow apart so that when you go over the final trip, you are at a safe speed to continue. Has worked as before the turn over turns were a monthly occurance. The strips are cut into the pavement, not speed-bump style.
My contrubution to high-conjested grade crossing are rumble strips warning in the pavement. On the Rt 283 ramp, ignore them and reduce speed, the more the the vehical shakes and the louder the sound.
So we have the visual signes, crossing-arms (question, do cross still have bells?) and now rumble strips.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/nyregion/at-rail-crossings-in-new-york-area-a-constantly-lurking-danger.html
greyhounds http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/nyregion/at-rail-crossings-in-new-york-area-a-constantly-lurking-danger.html
A couple quotes:
"The less expensive safety measures — automatic gates, lights, bells and signs — are largely in place in the New York region. A challenge is creating crossings that can overcome the lesser impulses of human nature in a part of the country where many people do not see patience as a virtue."
"The railroad also plans to paint “don’t block the box” stripping at the crossing this summer." [sic - should be "striping' - funny, the NYT editors/ style checkers must have missed that one !]
- Paul North.
A lot of these bad situations involve traffic congestion and back-ups across the tracks. Perhaps installing "ramp meters" with aggressive photo-enforcement (cameras)- which look like and can be enforced the same as regular traffic lights - to keep the volume and length of the queue down at the crossing - might be helpful, so that there is more room for trapped vehicles to escape. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramp_meter
http://azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/02/05/ramp-meters-unappreciated-or-just-misunderstood-
Paul_D_North_Jr "The railroad also plans to paint “don’t block the box” stripping at the crossing this summer." [sic - should be "striping' - funny, the NYT editors/ style checkers must have missed that one !] - Paul North.
Maybe they are showing us where their minds really are
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Euclid Here is the problem. There are times when slow congested traffic is passing over a grade crossing without actually stopping. A driver has no way of knowing whether the traffic will suddenly come to a stop when the driver is passing through the crossing. So the traffic control principle has to be that no driver ever should enter a crossing until it is completely clear of vehicles. The speed of the vehicles is irrelevant, but at higher speeds the problem of getting trapped on the crossing diminishes. But at say 10 mph, the problem is quite likely to occur. So what should a driver do when approaching in traffic moving continuously at 10 mph? In the first place, a vehicle can get trapped by the gates in traffic where the vehicle never stopped, simply because the traffic is moving very slowly. So the DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS sign does not even address this peril. A driver could get trapped by the gate although never stopping until that entrapment occurs. Here is what must be done when closely spaced traffic is approaching at 10 mph, but never stopping. Every vehicle must stop short of the crossing and wait until the vehicle ahead passes completely through the crossing. Only one at a time can cross. But this will add significantly to the already congested traffic. If the crossing is 100 feet wide, it will spread the closely spaced traffic out to have at least 100 feet of spacing between each vehicle. So a line of 100 vehicles (each 15 ft. long) approaching with 10 feet of vehicle spacing will be approximately 2,500 feet long. Once it crosses the track, every vehicle in the line will be spaced 110 feet from the next vehicle. So, after crossing the tracks, the line of vehicles will have grown from 2,500 feet long to 12,500 feet long. This added excess spacing caused by the grade crossing will reduce the capacity of the road and greatly add to the already overloaded condition and gridlock.
And how would you propose to enforce that?
North of where I live here in Virginia is the town of Ashland. The old RF&P, now CSX mainline runs through the center of town and there's several grade crossings.
Traffic usually backs up a bit at the grade crossing in the downtown area. When I'm in town I NEVER stop on the tracks, I always maintain a more than good separation between myself and the car in front of me. When there's room on the other side, then I cross. You're behind me and in a rush? Too damn bad, you're going to wait!
But then, that's just me.
Considering the freak nature of this accident, and the rarity of it, I think we need to be mindful that creating solutions that are worse than the problem should be avoided at all costs. As noted earlier by many posters, as long as there are trains running, people will still manage to get hit by them.
One possible and somewhat easy solution to lower risk is an electronic stop sign activated in congested conditions. In the Cascades, there are a few speed limit signs that light up with different speed limits when the roads are icy. Perhaps a sign that is blank when roads are uncrowded but lit up as a stop sign when roads are backed up would be a low cost improvement. People, of course, may still run through it.
I think we need to remember, though, that the road in question was congested due to an emergency detour.
Norm48327And how would you propose to enforce that?
They can enforce it like they enforce all the other traffic laws. But first they have to recognize the problem, and the DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS sign is a clear indication of a failure to recognize the problem, as I have carefully explained above. There is a need for this traffic control at grade crossings, and it goes beyond the issue of warning of trains.
STOP AND WAIT HERE
IF VEHICLES ARE ON CROSSING
The larger problem, however, is that this requirement, as I have explained, will increase traffic gridlock by maybe 5-10 times, depending on the crossing width. I doubt that will be deemed acceptable. So there is no solution to the problem, and the silly DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS sign is a feeble attempt to deny that lack of a solution.
Just build the damn bridge and try to inconvenience the adjoiners as little as possible. The rules of the conservation of stupid will continue to apply in the sign department. (subset of the Army Axiom)
Euclid STOP AND WAIT HERE IF VEHICLES ARE ON CROSSING
So, if there are no vehicles on the crossing, your sign is an invitation for them to pull up and stop there.
Euclid Norm48327 And how would you propose to enforce that? They can enforce it like they enforce all the other traffic laws. But first they have to recognize the problem, and the DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS sign is a clear indication of a failure to recognize the problem, as I have carefully explained above. There is a need for this traffic control at grade crossings, and it goes beyond the issue of warning of trains. I have revised my sign that I recommend for controlling the problem. This one says exactly what to do in the fewest words possible: STOP AND WAIT HERE IF VEHICLES ARE ON CROSSING The larger problem, however, is that this requirement, as I have explained, will increase traffic gridlock by maybe 5-10 times, depending on the crossing width. I doubt that will be deemed acceptable. So there is no solution to the problem, and the silly DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS sign is a feeble attempt to deny that lack of a solution.
Norm48327 And how would you propose to enforce that?
And here I thought the whole idea was to keep vehicles OFF the crossing.
I still don't see why some find the DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS less than adequate, it is short sweet and to the point.
The REAL problem isn't the sign anyway(regardless of WHAT wording is used) but the fact that common sense ISN'T COMMON any more, you shouldn't need to tell people not to enter a crossing until they can safely and COMPLETELY clear it.
Another sign that SHOULD be UN-Necessary is the "Fender Bender? Drive vehicles to the SHOULDER" signs. Yet I still see on a regular basis people exchanging Insurance info, in the TRAFFIC LANES, on the INTERSTATE, and then they can't understand WHY people are Honking at them. There are those that are still STUPID enough to believe that they can not move the vehicles until the Police show up, even in MINOR, NON-INJURY accidents. they don't understand, they are risking their own Safety, and increasing the chances of secondary accidents.
With more than 26 Years and 2,500,000 miles driving experience in Tractor Trailers, the Stupidity that I have seen on the roads is beyond mind boggeling, there is NOTHING that a motorist can do anymore that will surprise me. They may show me something I haven't seen yet, but it will take something truly, Impressively Stupid to surprise me.
Your suggestion and replies brings forth another possible solution. In the far side of a crossing place a traffic sensor loop(s). Maybe an electric light system ? If the loop(s) detect a stopped vehicle that would activate a sign, other lights, traffic signal, etc on the near side. saying:
" STOP crossing not clear "
Once a stopped vehicle moves then sign would turn off.
By no means is this a complete solution especially if a tractor trailer is allowed to proceed to an insufficient opening. If built to restrict a TT then our idiot drivers would soon learn to cross over to space.
We have 3 crossings here where a highway parallel to the train tracks distance is actually less than a TT length with 1 just one car length to highway.. As you can guess have seen some hairy situations. That's why we usually stop at least 25 feet from gate until far side clears.
This is a vehicle / DOT problem, not a railroad problem.
Install a second gate about 50' in front of the railroad gate. It will be one of those yellow and bloack things like are used in the parking lot. It the road beyond the tracks is clear the gate will go up and a green light will appear. The gate will then go down again and display a red light until the place beyond the gate is clear again. If a train comes (say the gates at the previous intersection went down, then the yellow gate will stay down until the train is passed.
This is called Traffic Metering.
ROAR
This particular intersection/Crossing is somewhat different.
Except for an accident on the Taconic State Parkway with traffic diverted to Commerse Street, Commerce is nothing more than a little country lane with little to no traffic on it. There is a reason why they call that town Valhalla -- It is 80% Cemetaries, and along that stretch of Commerce Street there is the Railroad and the Parkway to the east and a whole bunch of dead people to the west, and nothing else. That roac could easliy be removed together with the next crossing north whic ONLY serves the cemeteries to the West, and the one to the south whcih while it peters out in a cemetery does serve other communities, although that one would be more difficult to elevate.
The Taconic State Parkway is not much to speak of in that neighborhood either. IT COULD SERVE as the local street, and actually doesm until one gets to the Hawthorne Circle (Now just a super interchange) which is whre the real Parkway actually begins for all pratikal pourposes.
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