I think a small $500 fine under "Do not stop on tracks" would work in the same way it curbed littering.
schlimm Murphy Siding Shouldn't you have used a ';' instead of a ';' after the word own? In a word, "No." A semi-colon would preceed a clause, not a mere phrase. https://writing.wisc.edu/Handbook/Semicolons.html "A semicolon is most commonly used to link (in a single sentence) two independent clauses that are closely related in thought.".
Murphy Siding Shouldn't you have used a ';' instead of a ';' after the word own?
In a word, "No." A semi-colon would preceed a clause, not a mere phrase. https://writing.wisc.edu/Handbook/Semicolons.html
"A semicolon is most commonly used to link (in a single sentence) two independent clauses that are closely related in thought.".
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
My sign idea.
Know those light-up signs (example: [NO TURN ON RED] ) that only come on under certain circumstance?
Maybe we need one of those on the crossing that lights up [GET OFF THE TRACKS!] when the crossing activated.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann My sign idea. Know those light-up signs (example: [NO TURN ON RED] ) that only come on under certain circumstance? Maybe we need one of those on the crossing that lights up [GET OFF THE TRACKS!] when the crossing activated.
Maybe the idea of a traffic signal (traffic light) that turns yellow and red in conjunction with the gates. Yellow to warn, then red, gates start to descend. I have seem those at level crossings in Germany where the road is more than a rural, farmer's crossing. They seem to work well enough. Plenty of warning, the police have remote cameras in place and the fine for running it is very, very steep: 240-700 Euros (up to $800)and license suspension up to 3 months, which makes folks take it seriously since you are always ticketed.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Remember - we are dealing with the human animal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6syBu8KjcIQ
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Yes, the human animal. Basic learning theory gives us the solution to the problem, A rat or even much more primitive species, even American drivers can be conditioned. You just have to make the consequences of doing the wrong thing aversive enough and certain to be inflicted during the learning period, with plenty of cues (warnings). Seems simple and cheap enough to implement here. Why not? Unless some folks prefer to have fatal grade crsooing accidents occur frequently. Of course there are some situations with some folks that nothing will prevent, but those are outliers, maybe <5% (suicides, drunk, drugs, mentally disturbed).
schlimm Maybe the idea of a traffic signal (traffic light) that turns yellow and red in conjunction with the gates. Yellow to warn, then red, gates start to descend.
Maybe the idea of a traffic signal (traffic light) that turns yellow and red in conjunction with the gates. Yellow to warn, then red, gates start to descend.
I've been thinking along these lines. Since most drivers seem to condition their minds to react to common events like traffic lights, then turn off their thinking, if you put up standard-looking red/yellow/green traffic lights, they will more readily respond to them. Railroad crossings are uncommon experiences, and when drivers do cross them, most of the time there is no train.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
schlimm Yes, the human animal. Basic learning theory gives us the solution to the problem, A rat or even much more primitive species, even American drivers can be conditioned. You just have to make the consequences of doing the wrong thing aversive enough and certain to be inflicted during the learning period, with plenty of cues (warnings). Seems simple and cheap enough to implement here. Why not? Unless some folks prefer to have fatal grade crsooing accidents occur frequently. Of course there are some situations with some folks that nothing will prevent, but those are outliers, maybe <5% (suicides, drunk, drugs, mentally disturbed).
People block intersections with traffic lights all the time. So they stop on the tracks when the light is green, the light turns red, and they still sit on the tracks and get hit by the train.
I don't think it would have made a bit of difference in this wreck.
schlimmMaybe the idea of a traffic signal (traffic light) that turns yellow and red in conjunction with the gates. Yellow to warn, then red, gates start to descend.
Yellow = goose it, or you'll have to wait for a train...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 schlimm Maybe the idea of a traffic signal (traffic light) that turns yellow and red in conjunction with the gates. Yellow to warn, then red, gates start to descend. Yellow = goose it, or you'll have to wait for a train...
tree68Yellow = goose it, or you'll have to wait ...
See this all the time locally, along with the occasional collision.
The Dutch may have a solution. Watch the Meirlo-Hout webcam (Railcam.nl) carefully. The crossing has traffic light controlled intersections on both sides of it. When a train approaches, about 10 seconds before it gets close enough to activate the bells, flashers an gates, the traffic light on both sides stop all traffic at the intersections. That additional time seems to have an effect. Of course, with more than 100 trains a day passing the crossing, local drivers must be accustomed to stopping a little early. No special signs are evident. Also, I expect enforcement is strict. AFAIK there has been only one collision at the crossing in the three or so years I've been watching. Last August a pedestrian was hit when s/he walked past the gate into the path of a passenger train. It took more than 3 hours (at night) for police, fire, and RR responders to remove the remains and clean up the scene. All rail and road traffic was halted during that time.
Murphy Siding schlimm Yes, the human animal. Basic learning theory gives us the solution to the problem, A rat or even much more primitive species, even American drivers can be conditioned. You just have to make the consequences of doing the wrong thing aversive enough and certain to be inflicted during the learning period, with plenty of cues (warnings). Seems simple and cheap enough to implement here. Why not? Unless some folks prefer to have fatal grade crsooing accidents occur frequently. Of course there are some situations with some folks that nothing will prevent, but those are outliers, maybe <5% (suicides, drunk, drugs, mentally disturbed). Isn't that what we already have? What consequences could be more averse than possible death? And-plenty of cues? Like warning lights, bells, crossbuck signs, gates, arms, horns, ditch lights etc..? I understand that there is a need to improve safety at crossings. Why are we talking about making it harder for a train to hit a car? Shouldn't we talking about how to make car drivers better able to keep from putting themselves in harm's way?pssst.. I think you spelled crsooing wrong; just sayin'...
Isn't that what we already have? What consequences could be more averse than possible death? And-plenty of cues? Like warning lights, bells, crossbuck signs, gates, arms, horns, ditch lights etc..? I understand that there is a need to improve safety at crossings. Why are we talking about making it harder for a train to hit a car? Shouldn't we talking about how to make car drivers better able to keep from putting themselves in harm's way?pssst.. I think you spelled crsooing wrong; just sayin'...
You aren't understanding aversive conditioning. Having a fatal accident as a possibility doesn't work,because it is not a 100% certain contingency schedule. A ticket with a very large fine is. They even ticket pedestrians. That is the difference and why the approaches used here do not work well. Seems sensible to have an open mind and use approaches which are soundly based on operant conditioning and work well in other settings.
BTW: There is a difference between obvious typos and misspellings , which even the former spell checker would not catch. But if that is fun for you, go for it.
schlimm You aren't understanding aversive conditioning. Having a fatal accident as a possibility doesn't work,because it is not a 100% certain contingency schedule. A ticket with a very large fine is. They even ticket pedestrians. That is the difference and why the approaches used here do not work well. Seems sensible to have an open mind and use approaches which are soundly based on operant conditioning and work well in other settings. BTW: There is a difference between obvious typos and misspellings , which even the former spell checker would not catch. But if that is fun for you, go for it.
After at least 283 replies this thread and countless others on other threads only one conclusion is apparent. No matter much any effort is made you can not make a grade crossings potentially accident free. There are too many scofflaws, persons who think they can beat anything on tracks, distracted drivers, missed judgments, missed signs, other drivers causing problems, etc that will cause grade crossing accidents and deaths.
Even eliminating a grade crossing or building an overpass or underpass will not stop all accidents. Look at what happened to the Texas prison bus.
blue streak 1 rdamon I can imagine if the end/beginning of the third rail is just a square end it would tend to impale things. I wonder if a design like this would reduce the chances of something getting under it. There could be an insulated joint that keeps them from electrocuting the worms. This would not work for third rail. -------- but -------- Why not place this type guard rail outside of the plane of the third rail closer to the roadway ? That way the guard rail would engage any vehicle and lift it over the third rail. That might roll the vehicle but could prevent impaling the loco / cab car / MU.
rdamon I can imagine if the end/beginning of the third rail is just a square end it would tend to impale things. I wonder if a design like this would reduce the chances of something getting under it. There could be an insulated joint that keeps them from electrocuting the worms.
This would not work for third rail. -------- but --------
Why not place this type guard rail outside of the plane of the third rail closer to the roadway ? That way the guard rail would engage any vehicle and lift it over the third rail. That might roll the vehicle but could prevent impaling the loco / cab car / MU.
This assumes that the third rail will always be pulled into the rail cars. Given different positioning of the struck vehicle, the third rail might have been deflected more or less harmlessly off to the side.
Underrunning third rail has been around for how many years? And how many examples have been found of this particular manifestation? While we can agree that it was a factor in this incident, methinks we are otherwise searching for a solution for a problem that is virtually nonexistant.
"we are otherwise searching for a solution for a problem that is virtually nonexistant"
Standard procedure of some folks.
Norm
One must remember that the idea of burying the end of highway guardrails dates to the 1960's. The design came about because of the number of cars that were being impaled on the blunt end of existing guardrails of the time.
That practice is now being replaced by collapsing end guardrails. Why? Because the parent of a young driver whose vehicle was launched airborne (or caused to roll over - don't recall specifics) by a sloped end of a guardrail sued, saying the design caused her child injury (or was it death?). That might raise questions as to circumstances, but those are beyond this discussion.
Thus a practice that undoubtedly saved countless lives was blamed for taking one.
Rather than re-engineering the 25 junctures that exist with a solution that only benefits those 25, methinks we should concentrate on the basic problem of driver incursions into crossings - a topic we've been discussing at length here in numerous threads.
Besides, the next headline might read "the occupants might have survived were it not for the structure that had been installed to protect the third rail..."
I wonder if anyone has considered the fact that any safety device for protecting the end of the third rail has to be designed to allow the passage of third-rail shoes on MU cars or locomotives.
CSSHEGEWISCH I wonder if anyone has considered the fact that any safety device for protecting the end of the third rail has to be designed to allow the passage of third-rail shoes on MU cars or locomotives.
Have fun with your trains
vsmith
I am working on this. I will report back when I hear something.
A safe crossing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goKnQ66VpWg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH5CZvPUR54
Anyone who manages to get hit at something like this must be blind and deaf.
23 17 46 11
There were some reproduced Burma Shave sign sets that were placed along the old Lincoln Highway/US30 routes in Iowa. One went something like this.
"Train Approaching, Whistle screaming. Pause. Avoid that run down feeling. Burma Shave."
Jeff
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