cefinkjr Buslist Quick lesson on signal terms. The "display" or look of the signal is called the Aspect. Begins with the letter A which helps when you think of it as the "Appearance" of the signal. The name of the aspect is called the Indication. Beginning with I helps to remember it's the "Information" conveyed by that aspect. So green would be a signal aspect , clear would be the indication. Thank you for this. Your definitions of Aspect and Indication are exactly as I learned them 50 years ago on the NYC. Misuse of Aspect above was beginning to raise my blood pressure. And while I'm posting, that Red Over Yellow, in my rule book, which I still have, was Rule 290 "Restricting". Its Indication was "Proceed at restricted speed". (Yeah, I had to look it up.) I must have heard a thousand times: "Signals don't tell you where you're going; they only tell you how far and how fast you can go."
Buslist Quick lesson on signal terms. The "display" or look of the signal is called the Aspect. Begins with the letter A which helps when you think of it as the "Appearance" of the signal. The name of the aspect is called the Indication. Beginning with I helps to remember it's the "Information" conveyed by that aspect. So green would be a signal aspect , clear would be the indication.
Quick lesson on signal terms. The "display" or look of the signal is called the Aspect. Begins with the letter A which helps when you think of it as the "Appearance" of the signal. The name of the aspect is called the Indication. Beginning with I helps to remember it's the "Information" conveyed by that aspect. So green would be a signal aspect , clear would be the indication.
Thank you for this. Your definitions of Aspect and Indication are exactly as I learned them 50 years ago on the NYC. Misuse of Aspect above was beginning to raise my blood pressure.
And while I'm posting, that Red Over Yellow, in my rule book, which I still have, was Rule 290 "Restricting". Its Indication was "Proceed at restricted speed". (Yeah, I had to look it up.)
I must have heard a thousand times: "Signals don't tell you where you're going; they only tell you how far and how fast you can go."
At one point there was a clear difference between North American Signal practice and European. European tended to be "route" based, it told you what route you were lined on, you need to know the speeds required. North American practice was speed ( and as you said how far you can go) based. That distinction has blurred somewhat in recent years with a bit more route information in North American practice. Can't comment on any European trends.
ChuckAllen, TX
Paul_D_North_Jr Ed - Like me (not that I knew it at the time ): So you have a chance of understanding the locals when you can go visit the Quebec, North Shore & Labrador (Tshiuetin Rail for the passenger service), Cartier, and other railroads up there (the reason I bought a French-English dictionary a few years ago); and/ or the trains in Quebec and Montreal; or maybe go to France to ride the TGV's and regional rail lines (which my daughter will be doing in about a week). - Paul North.
Ed - Like me (not that I knew it at the time ): So you have a chance of understanding the locals when you can go visit the Quebec, North Shore & Labrador (Tshiuetin Rail for the passenger service), Cartier, and other railroads up there (the reason I bought a French-English dictionary a few years ago); and/ or the trains in Quebec and Montreal; or maybe go to France to ride the TGV's and regional rail lines (which my daughter will be doing in about a week).
- Paul North.
have ridden both the QCM as well as the QNS&L and the TGV, RATP, RER etc without knowing a single word of French and got along just fine, but that's an arrogant American talking!
Why did I start taking French in the 10th grade? To round out my class schedule, which needed another subject since Iwas not taking Vocational Agriculture, which the majority of the boys in my class were taking--I had no thought of being a farmer (and only one or two of my classmates ended up farming). As a result, fifty some-odd years later I was able to converse, briefly, with a native in Quebec City.
Johnny
MP173 Why did I ever waste time in French class 30 some years ago?
Yeah, with subtitles and Google Translate, hardly seems worth the effort.
Zugman:That is life in general. Prepare for the big picture, work a smaller chunk. Why did I ever waste time in French class 30 some years ago?Ed
rfpjohn That's alot of territory! Good luck and happy rails to you!
That's alot of territory! Good luck and happy rails to you!
Sad part is, that if all goes as planned, I won't be regularly running on 97% of it.
Frustration, thy name is railroad.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
rfpjohnAn intimate familiarity of the grade profile, signal locations and perminant speed restrictions is an absolute necessity for good train handling. At least for me, the screen profile just doesn't come close. Just let me run my own train for a few more years.
I agree with you - but with 900 miles of railroad to learn - I'll take any help I can get. I'm not proud.
We have GE's trip optimizer on my carrier, which will do it all, throttle, dynamic, perminant and temporary speed restrictions but, of course, will not recognize signal aspects. I work undualating territory and I don't care for the system at all. It does not seem to recognize the rolling characteristics of intermodal trains (which I run). It is excruciatingly slow approaching slow orders, and then, at the last second, randomly fails to get down to the posted speed! Of course, we're supposed to anticipate when that might happen! In multiple track territory, it asks which track you're going to be on, far in advance of where one could possibly know. It will also slow you down, anticipating a crossover move miles away whether or not your going to cross over at that point. When you are close enough to determine your route at the next interlocking, the train must be accelerated back up to line speed. Yeh, that's saving fuel. Cresting a grade, I've had it go in and out of dynamic up to 19!!! times, before deciding that the train is accelerating sufficiently downhill to stay in dynamic. It runs sloppy in areas of short, multiple grade changes, driving hard into the bottoms and then going into dynamic uphill, causing some pretty nice run-ins. Places, where a knowledgable hoghead could drift a train in idle for miles, optimizer jumps in and out of dynamic and power. Sloppy. I'm a cranky old head. I've always taken a great deal of pride in getting over the road safely and efficiently. Smooth train handling has always been my goal. An intimate familiarity of the grade profile, signal locations and perminant speed restrictions is an absolute necessity for good train handling. At least for me, the screen profile just doesn't come close. Just let me run my own train for a few more years.
jeffhergert I'm guessing you had the Leader system? The UP also uses it on certain lines.
I'm guessing you had the Leader system? The UP also uses it on certain lines.
Yep, that's it. Ours is a bit simpler with just CPs, grades, and permanent speed restrictions. The older generation ones us text based prompts (use lookahead speeds to maintain momentum), while the newer versions show what throttle/db notch you are in, and what notch it wants you to be in.
It runs the train pretty aggresively (or I run them like a wuss...don't know which - maybe a little of both?) . Fine for a TV/intermodal, but like you said - toss in a drag freight, or engines with crappy dynamics, and it won't be pretty.
A nice tool, but I wouldn't bet the entire farm on it quite yet.
Jeff: Uncle Pete has collected more data than the on-board software can ever hope to handle with their PMV vehicles and updates it constantly. CSX is leasing the UP technology as well. NS is a little further back. BNSF/KCS/CN/CP are further back for various reasons (BNSF's coordinate happy idiots made a major blunder with helicopter borne technology that they are just now recovering from; the engineers just might listen to the surveyors from now on)
All these systems have flaws (some you pointed out) and will all require one of those organic biological computers in the cab still for a long-long time.
zugmann Ran a certain line with loads the first time going the one direction (as opposed to empties coming back which is what I already did) using that display. Terrain was undulating (up-down-up-down-up-down), and the train was short and heavy. Using that screen to watch the grades, I was able to keep the train in one piece and not have any major run in/run outs. Not that you want to be dependent on that display, but it is nice to have.
Ran a certain line with loads the first time going the one direction (as opposed to empties coming back which is what I already did) using that display. Terrain was undulating (up-down-up-down-up-down), and the train was short and heavy. Using that screen to watch the grades, I was able to keep the train in one piece and not have any major run in/run outs.
Not that you want to be dependent on that display, but it is nice to have.
It's got the screen display of track profile, location of bridges and culverts, curves and grades, and grade crossings. Ours doesn't have other tracks, switches or signals. (This screen will eventually be integrated into the PTC system and have those things as well.) It shows current maximum speed (Adjustable for when individual train maximum speed is less than the time table maximum speed.) and upcoming permanent and (usually) temporary speed restrictions. It won't show "unforseen" temporary restrictions that have been issued since the engineer logged into the system at the on duty point. It also shows Form B (work zones) on the profile. It also shows current train speed and predicts future train speed up to 4 or 5 miles out, depending on the "zoom" level of the screen. There are also air brake and buff/draft displays showing what's happening through the train.
The system has an engineer assist option. Newer versions that I've read about (don't know if the UP has or will get it) will actually operate the throttle/dynamic brake instead of just prompting the engineer to change throttle/brake setting. The engineer assist will prompt the engineer to change the throttle or dynamic brake and to even set air to maintain speed as close to maximum, including slow orders, as possible. I love it when it tells me to set 6.5 psi, something I can't do. (A minimum application sets 7 to 8 psi.) Or when it tells me to set air going over a defect detector, something they would rather we not do. Then it says to release that 6.5 psi set, another thing they don't like. They want to see at least a 10 psi reduction to reduce the chance of sticking brakes unless it's a situation where you will again be setting air soon.
The current version only prompts for the head end. It doesn't prompt for any DP consist(s). A newer version (update) is supposed to to that, but I haven't seen one yet. I've learned to ignore the buff/draft force screen when operating the DP separate from the head end. The current system thinks the DP is providing the same tractive or braking effort as the head end displays in-train forces under that assumption.
I like the display. Using it does help one not having to constantly figure out where exactly your train is at in relation to grades, summits and bottoms. Also when you have cleared a defined point, such as the end of a speed restriction. It's a lazy way I guess, but it's nice when you have one less thing to think about while trying to remember a dozen other things.
Using the prompts is another thing. The system is a "clear block" system. It doesn't know where or what signals you are approaching. As far as it knows, you are the only train out there and running on clear blocks. To comply with less favorable signals or approaching a stopping point, the prompts can be suspended. Approaching Form B areas, the system suspendes itself and the engineer has to enable the prompting again.
The assist isn't too bad. It's not the greatest. It constantly is recalulating everything. Sometimes it will prompt you to do one thing and even before you can reach the handle, it has changed it's mind and prompts you to go back to the setting you originally had. They are supposed to be cracking down on usage after the first of the year, wanting everyone to follow the prompts all the time when possible.
It's supposed to help train handling, but has been known to prompt an engineer to do something that causes a train separation. Supposedly, they won't hold an engineer responsible for tearing up a train if he had been following the "Leader." I can't wait for the next 2 mile long, 15000 ton POS that has all kinds of long drawbars, blocks of loads right behind a bunch of empties. I'll gladly follow the prompts. It's funny though, the times I get trains like that I don't have a Leader equipped engine.
I think I've read that Leader has improved fuel conversation by 3 or 4 percent. They were expecting 10 or 11 percent. Still, I would rather have a Leader equipped engine instead of one with EMD's "Smart Consist."
Jeff
PS. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, they will say a new engineer won't need a pilot or familiarazation trips if the engines have Leader or full blown PTC.
MP173 Jeff How many territories are most crew members qualified for? In other words, lets say a person works out of Clinton, Iowa on the UP. Are most qualified both east and west? Great point about uniform markings and signals. I do not see that happening anytime soon either, not with the capex of PTC chewing up a chunk of cash. Ed
How many territories are most crew members qualified for? In other words, lets say a person works out of Clinton, Iowa on the UP. Are most qualified both east and west?
Great point about uniform markings and signals. I do not see that happening anytime soon either, not with the capex of PTC chewing up a chunk of cash.
Ed
PTC will help. The standard I-ETMS PTC display in the cab shows lots of stuff that can help with train handling. It shows curves, grades, signals, switches and position of the train on the line.
Should the industry ever be able to wean itself away from PTC as an overlay to stand-alone PTC, it might get even simpler to operate a train over "foreign" territory.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
MP173 Are dispatchers required to qualify on districts? Are qualifying trips required to gain familiarity with the territory?
Are dispatchers required to qualify on districts? Are qualifying trips required to gain familiarity with the territory?
Yes and no. A dispatcher is required to train on a desk before he can "mark up". For my employer, it is at least 20 days of training for a qualified dispatcher. A road review, or "qualifying trip" is not required, but recommended.
An "expensive model collector"
I always wonder how many other jobs are like ours?
Start out qualified on everything, then lose most of those qualifications the longer you stay?
yeah, it's a silly system.
It depends on the assignment one regularly holds. When I was on the Boone extra board, I was qualified from Clinton (Illinois Rte 84 Xing) to Fremont (both via Blair or Omaha) and between Des Moines and Mason City/Manly, IA. Although my senioirity would've permitted, I wasn't qualified on the Northwest Iowa grain lines. They are handled out of a different terminal.
For the past 20 or so months I've only worked the west end to Fremont. My other qualifications have expired and I would have to make familiarization trips if I changed runs. Most people kind of fall into the same routine. As soon as they can hold regular assigments/boards or a specific terminal, they tend to have other territory qualifications expire. They only retain the qualification on the runs handled by the terminal/board they are on. Unless, as some do, they jump around between terminals or boards. Either because enough seniority lets them choose to move or not enough seniority forces them to move.
Long time Clinton based employees mostly are only qualifed to Missouri Valley. East of Clinton is the domain of Proviso/West Chicago and Peoria based crews. Iowa crews can't go east of Rte 84 crossing.
Add fog to my list of things that could obscure a lineside sign until you're right at it. One of Linda Grant Nieman's articles/ stories in Trains about 10 - 15 years ago was about a trip - in the Houston, TX area as I recall - in a heavy for with an inexperienced crew, including her. They really didn't know where they were, so they crept along at 5 - 10 mph, and stopped at every switch/ turnout to find out which way each route went before proceeding any further. The other day up at Mt. Pocono, it was so thick that at the posted speed limit, even red traffic signals couldn't be seen far enough in advance to stop before getting into the intersection (unless like me, the driver reduced speed accordingly - considerably). And there were incidents when drivers weren't limiting their speed to being able to stop within the range of their vision - let alone half the range of their vision as required by Restricted speed on a railroad !
Back to the main topic: Funny thing is, a train has less "freedom of movement" - a train can only go forward or back on one of a set of only a few tracks. But highway vehicles can turn in many different places.
Also, train crews are trained well in their craft, whereas many car drivers are barely competent, and some less so (I spend a lot of time in construction work areas, and we're convinced that "orange cones create dumb zones" . . . ).
But the key point is this: Trains can't stop quickly, and are extremely sensitive to changes in grade, etc. Thus, the signs need to be considerably in advance of the point that they are conveying information about.
The point about engineers potentially suffering from what airplane pilots call "head in the cockpit" syndrome while attempting to read an unfamiliar map/ track chart is well-taken. But that gives the conductor something to do, and is the real reason he's there anyway - to be in charge / responsible for the movement authority and speed of the train, as then actually controlled/ implemented by the engineer - essentially, the conductor would then be like a navigator.
As Larry suggests, charts and signs are not complete preparation. Running a locomotive is relatively easy while good train handling, especially if there is a roller coaster profile, is somewhat of an art. A unit bulk train with DPUs will react differently from a manifest train with a mix of loads and empties.
Perhaps a very different environment on the highways will provide somewhat of a parallel. Anybody who commutes regularly soon finds little tricks. Avoid the xxx lane in one stretch, or best to get positioned for a particular exit early. A stranger will get through with the help of the road signs or GPS but his strategy will often be less than optimal. Tourist are known to disrupt the usual smooth flow of traffic upon occasion...
John
PDN - While I wouldn't expect Interstate highway-type signs on the railroad, I would expect that the signage that was installed would be of sufficient durability and to be checked on (part of track inspection) often enough that if a sign was stolen, it took some effort, and it would soon be missed and replaced.
That said - even with such signage in place, odds are most routes would be frequented by the same crews on a regular basis, as they are now. Having crews roam here and there (as do truck drivers like Randy) smacks of (dare I say it) open access...
All the track charts in the world don't prepare you for the real world, though. The detailed description of the lines that Sam mentioned would probably cover that aspect a little better. Knowing that a given crossing is at MP 42.43 isn't quite as useful as knowing it's hidden around a curve. I'm still learning all the visual clues that go along with the physical characteristics on our line - and occasionally use a "job aid" so I can be alert for an upcoming feature.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
samfp1943 BaltACD wrote: "...The more attention you require the engineer to pay inside the cab - the less time he has available to pay attention to the things happening outside the cab..." Rcently, I paid a vist to a small, museum in Wellington, Ks. It was accumuated by a retired AT&SF Engineer, and comprises, books, and all sorts of Santa Fe memoriabilia from the collection of Mr. P.H. Wiley, whose career was primarily on the Santa Fe Panhandle Division. Within that collection are the manuals that instruct an engineer as to the layout of that Division. They are for the uniniatiated, complicated, and hard to read without study, but the details of the line are amazing. Manuals like those bring into sharp focus, exactly what BaltACD indicated in his post.
BaltACD wrote: "...The more attention you require the engineer to pay inside the cab - the less time he has available to pay attention to the things happening outside the cab..."
Rcently, I paid a vist to a small, museum in Wellington, Ks. It was accumuated by a retired AT&SF Engineer, and comprises, books, and all sorts of Santa Fe memoriabilia from the collection of Mr. P.H. Wiley, whose career was primarily on the Santa Fe Panhandle Division.
Within that collection are the manuals that instruct an engineer as to the layout of that Division. They are for the uniniatiated, complicated, and hard to read without study, but the details of the line are amazing. Manuals like those bring into sharp focus, exactly what BaltACD indicated in his post.
Buslist Paul_D_North_Jr In contrast, a comprehensive timetable map (either paper or electronic display) that would look almost like a track chart - including grades, curves, junctions, signals, bridges, grade crossings and other major fixed features, etc. - and would be valid, useable, and useful regardless of what happens to the much smaller and easier-to-move signs and markers. - Paul North. You sort of just described the PTC display but it will have the addition of movement authorities, slow orders and work limits.
Paul_D_North_Jr In contrast, a comprehensive timetable map (either paper or electronic display) that would look almost like a track chart - including grades, curves, junctions, signals, bridges, grade crossings and other major fixed features, etc. - and would be valid, useable, and useful regardless of what happens to the much smaller and easier-to-move signs and markers. - Paul North.
In contrast, a comprehensive timetable map (either paper or electronic display) that would look almost like a track chart - including grades, curves, junctions, signals, bridges, grade crossings and other major fixed features, etc. - and would be valid, useable, and useful regardless of what happens to the much smaller and easier-to-move signs and markers.
You sort of just described the PTC display but it will have the addition of movement authorities, slow orders and work limits.
The more attention you require the engineer to pay inside the cab - the less time he has available to pay attention to the things happening outside the cab.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD It has alway been my contention that if rail lines were adequetely marked and signed, that any qualified engineer or conductor would be able to safely transact business over any line. [snipped - PDN] Pre identifying grades, curves, slow orders, sidings and other significant railroad operating constraints would give personnel adequate warning to prepare for whatever their next operating challenge would be. At present railroads ARE NOT sufficiently marked to permit this kind of operation.
[snipped - PDN]
Pre identifying grades, curves, slow orders, sidings and other significant railroad operating constraints would give personnel adequate warning to prepare for whatever their next operating challenge would be. At present railroads ARE NOT sufficiently marked to permit this kind of operation.
I don't see how that could be made into a 'fail-safe' situation. Compare with a "G", number plate, or similar marker on a fixed signal which allows a train to either "Stop and Proceed" or "Proceed past at Restricted Speed", etc. If that marker is missing, then the signal is to be treated as an absolute signal and a full "Stop and stay stopped" at that signal is mandatory, until the situation is corrected, clarified, or overidden, etc.
But if the sign for "Approaching Podunk Jct." is stolen, what else would tell the crew that, or otherwise alert them to the impending route change ? In contrast, a comprehensive timetable map (either paper or electronic display) that would look almost like a track chart - including grades, curves, junctions, signals, bridges, grade crossings and other major fixed features, etc. - and would be valid, useable, and useful regardless of what happens to the much smaller and easier-to-move signs and markers.
BaltACDt has alway been my contention that if rail lines were adequetely marked and signed, that any qualified engineer or conductor would be able to safely transact business over any line.
I wholeheartedly agree. Consistant signalling would make a huge difference as well.
And with PTC (or at least a GPS based "guide"), signage might not be as necessary, as warnings of upcoming changes could be posted right in front of the engineer. Redundancy would make signage desirable, though.
This does raise the possibility of "team crews," wherein one double crew could take a train across a number of current territories.
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