I often hear NS and CSX dispatchers ask crews heading into Chicago if they are "qualified" to the destination. This is usually an offline destination, such as Proviso, Kirk, Cicero, but is often on their own line.
How does one become "qualified"? How many trips are required? Is there a test or familiarity issue with the ETT and rules? How is that administered? What is the biggest issue...proper care and feeding of signal applications?Ed
MP173 What is the biggest issue...proper care and feeding of signal applications?Ed
What is the biggest issue...proper care and feeding of signal applications?Ed
That is one consideration of many considerations. The same signal display may be mean a different aspect on different RRs or even different divisions of same RR. That was just one cause of Amtrak running into a NS stopped freight. The display was red over yellow which was diverging restricting on that NS siding but Amtrak thought they would only need to stop at next signal.
It is time to get one national standard of what any display means as an aspect.
blue streak 1 It is time to get one national standard of what any display means as an aspect.
Ain't going to happen for lots of reasons, and with PTC the need (if any) goes away in most locations.
Qualifying on a territory: Usually several trips over the line in question, followed by a check ride.
If an engineer hasn't been over a given territory in a certain amount of time, there's usually a check ride to retain/regain qualification.
There could be some review of rules, signals aspects, as well, although I don't know whether anyone requires a written test.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Around Chicago the CORA book is required for any offline trips, and is to be referred to for signals, timetable restrictions, or whatever (normally, the railroad employee follows his own railroad's operating rules wherever he is, by mutual agreement).Qualification should include familiarization with the route...stuff like "what signal will I be getting to go where I need to be?", or "what does that diverging signal mean...am I going to leave the line or just cross over?" It takes a few trips before one can remember these things.The wreck involving the Pere Marquette was because the relief engineer (who was allegedly qualified but came from an area where red-over-anything is a diverging signal) misread a red-over yellow Restricting signal as a Diverging Approach.(Never heard of a "Diverging Restricting".)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
blue streak 1 MP173 What is the biggest issue...proper care and feeding of signal applications?Ed That is one consideration of many considerations. The same signal display may be mean a different aspect on different RRs or even different divisions of same RR. It is time to get one national standard of what any display means as an aspect.
That is one consideration of many considerations. The same signal display may be mean a different aspect on different RRs or even different divisions of same RR.
Quick lesson on signal terms. The "display" or look of the signal is called the Aspect. Begins with the letter A which helps when you think of it as the "Appearance" of the signal. The name of the aspect is called the Indication. Beginning with I helps to remember it's the "Information" conveyed by that aspect. So green would be a signal aspect , clear would be the indication.
Partially correct there, Mr. Buslist.To use your example, the name of the signal ("Clear") is the Name of the signal.The appearance is the Aspect (Green-over-whatever), as you said.
The Indication, however, is what is meant by the signal. In this case, it's "Proceed".It gets more complicated with other signal Names/Aspects/Indications. For example, an Approach (name) signal, with yellow on the top or by itself (aspect), has an indcation of "Proceed prepared to stop before any part of train or engine passes the next signal. Freight trains exceeeding 30 MPH must immediately reduce to 30 MPH. Passenger trains exceeding 40 MPH must immediately reduce to 40 MPH."
Are dispatchers required to qualify on districts? Are qualifying trips required to gain familiarity with the territory?
MP173 Are dispatchers required to qualify on districts? Are qualifying trips required to gain familiarity with the territory?
The dispatchers I know do visit the territories they dispatch. How often that's necessary/required I don't know.
Familiarity with an operating district seems really prudent, if not a requirement.
Ed
To qualify on a territory, you might be placed on a training board or just given a pilot. The number of trips required depends on how hard the territory is and if it is an initial or renewal of qualification. If it's a new territory, they might allow 3 or 4 trips, more if it's a harder territory. A renewal is usually two trips. The DSLE (Designated Supervisor of Locomotive Engineers, more commonly known as a Manager of Operating Practices or Road Foreman of Engines) will determine the number needed. You can be away from a territory for a year, five months for heavy grade territories, before needing to requalify.
Except for my initial ride to qualify as an engineer, and the required bi-annual check rides, I've never had a check ride to qualify on a specific territory. After the determined number of trips it's "Tag, you're it." If the engineer feels he needs more trips, then the DSLE may do a check ride.
When we've detoured over the IAIS or CN due to planned work, we've used our own pilots who qualified over those foriegn lines. The last few times we've done this the pilots were qualified by making a trip over the route in a high-rail truck.
Jeff
It has alway been my contention that if rail lines were adequetely marked and signed, that any qualified engineer or conductor would be able to safely transact business over any line.
As drivers we don't need Pilots when undertaking a trip to a new destination because the route is adequately marked and signed to permit us to get to our destination safely - with or without GPS.
Pre identifying grades, curves, slow orders, sidings and other significant railroad operating constraints would give personnel adequate warning to prepare for whatever their next operating challenge would be. At present railroads ARE NOT sufficiently marked to permit this kind of operation.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
How many territories are most crew members qualified for? In other words, lets say a person works out of Clinton, Iowa on the UP. Are most qualified both east and west?
Great point about uniform markings and signals. I do not see that happening anytime soon either, not with the capex of PTC chewing up a chunk of cash.
BaltACDt has alway been my contention that if rail lines were adequetely marked and signed, that any qualified engineer or conductor would be able to safely transact business over any line.
I wholeheartedly agree. Consistant signalling would make a huge difference as well.
And with PTC (or at least a GPS based "guide"), signage might not be as necessary, as warnings of upcoming changes could be posted right in front of the engineer. Redundancy would make signage desirable, though.
This does raise the possibility of "team crews," wherein one double crew could take a train across a number of current territories.
BaltACD It has alway been my contention that if rail lines were adequetely marked and signed, that any qualified engineer or conductor would be able to safely transact business over any line. [snipped - PDN] Pre identifying grades, curves, slow orders, sidings and other significant railroad operating constraints would give personnel adequate warning to prepare for whatever their next operating challenge would be. At present railroads ARE NOT sufficiently marked to permit this kind of operation.
[snipped - PDN]
I don't see how that could be made into a 'fail-safe' situation. Compare with a "G", number plate, or similar marker on a fixed signal which allows a train to either "Stop and Proceed" or "Proceed past at Restricted Speed", etc. If that marker is missing, then the signal is to be treated as an absolute signal and a full "Stop and stay stopped" at that signal is mandatory, until the situation is corrected, clarified, or overidden, etc.
But if the sign for "Approaching Podunk Jct." is stolen, what else would tell the crew that, or otherwise alert them to the impending route change ? In contrast, a comprehensive timetable map (either paper or electronic display) that would look almost like a track chart - including grades, curves, junctions, signals, bridges, grade crossings and other major fixed features, etc. - and would be valid, useable, and useful regardless of what happens to the much smaller and easier-to-move signs and markers.
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_Jr In contrast, a comprehensive timetable map (either paper or electronic display) that would look almost like a track chart - including grades, curves, junctions, signals, bridges, grade crossings and other major fixed features, etc. - and would be valid, useable, and useful regardless of what happens to the much smaller and easier-to-move signs and markers. - Paul North.
In contrast, a comprehensive timetable map (either paper or electronic display) that would look almost like a track chart - including grades, curves, junctions, signals, bridges, grade crossings and other major fixed features, etc. - and would be valid, useable, and useful regardless of what happens to the much smaller and easier-to-move signs and markers.
You sort of just described the PTC display but it will have the addition of movement authorities, slow orders and work limits.
Buslist Paul_D_North_Jr In contrast, a comprehensive timetable map (either paper or electronic display) that would look almost like a track chart - including grades, curves, junctions, signals, bridges, grade crossings and other major fixed features, etc. - and would be valid, useable, and useful regardless of what happens to the much smaller and easier-to-move signs and markers. - Paul North. You sort of just described the PTC display but it will have the addition of movement authorities, slow orders and work limits.
The more attention you require the engineer to pay inside the cab - the less time he has available to pay attention to the things happening outside the cab.
BaltACD wrote: "...The more attention you require the engineer to pay inside the cab - the less time he has available to pay attention to the things happening outside the cab..."
Rcently, I paid a vist to a small, museum in Wellington, Ks. It was accumuated by a retired AT&SF Engineer, and comprises, books, and all sorts of Santa Fe memoriabilia from the collection of Mr. P.H. Wiley, whose career was primarily on the Santa Fe Panhandle Division.
Within that collection are the manuals that instruct an engineer as to the layout of that Division. They are for the uniniatiated, complicated, and hard to read without study, but the details of the line are amazing. Manuals like those bring into sharp focus, exactly what BaltACD indicated in his post.
samfp1943 BaltACD wrote: "...The more attention you require the engineer to pay inside the cab - the less time he has available to pay attention to the things happening outside the cab..." Rcently, I paid a vist to a small, museum in Wellington, Ks. It was accumuated by a retired AT&SF Engineer, and comprises, books, and all sorts of Santa Fe memoriabilia from the collection of Mr. P.H. Wiley, whose career was primarily on the Santa Fe Panhandle Division. Within that collection are the manuals that instruct an engineer as to the layout of that Division. They are for the uniniatiated, complicated, and hard to read without study, but the details of the line are amazing. Manuals like those bring into sharp focus, exactly what BaltACD indicated in his post.
Johnny
PDN - While I wouldn't expect Interstate highway-type signs on the railroad, I would expect that the signage that was installed would be of sufficient durability and to be checked on (part of track inspection) often enough that if a sign was stolen, it took some effort, and it would soon be missed and replaced.
That said - even with such signage in place, odds are most routes would be frequented by the same crews on a regular basis, as they are now. Having crews roam here and there (as do truck drivers like Randy) smacks of (dare I say it) open access...
All the track charts in the world don't prepare you for the real world, though. The detailed description of the lines that Sam mentioned would probably cover that aspect a little better. Knowing that a given crossing is at MP 42.43 isn't quite as useful as knowing it's hidden around a curve. I'm still learning all the visual clues that go along with the physical characteristics on our line - and occasionally use a "job aid" so I can be alert for an upcoming feature.
As Larry suggests, charts and signs are not complete preparation. Running a locomotive is relatively easy while good train handling, especially if there is a roller coaster profile, is somewhat of an art. A unit bulk train with DPUs will react differently from a manifest train with a mix of loads and empties.
Perhaps a very different environment on the highways will provide somewhat of a parallel. Anybody who commutes regularly soon finds little tricks. Avoid the xxx lane in one stretch, or best to get positioned for a particular exit early. A stranger will get through with the help of the road signs or GPS but his strategy will often be less than optimal. Tourist are known to disrupt the usual smooth flow of traffic upon occasion...
John
Add fog to my list of things that could obscure a lineside sign until you're right at it. One of Linda Grant Nieman's articles/ stories in Trains about 10 - 15 years ago was about a trip - in the Houston, TX area as I recall - in a heavy for with an inexperienced crew, including her. They really didn't know where they were, so they crept along at 5 - 10 mph, and stopped at every switch/ turnout to find out which way each route went before proceeding any further. The other day up at Mt. Pocono, it was so thick that at the posted speed limit, even red traffic signals couldn't be seen far enough in advance to stop before getting into the intersection (unless like me, the driver reduced speed accordingly - considerably). And there were incidents when drivers weren't limiting their speed to being able to stop within the range of their vision - let alone half the range of their vision as required by Restricted speed on a railroad !
Back to the main topic: Funny thing is, a train has less "freedom of movement" - a train can only go forward or back on one of a set of only a few tracks. But highway vehicles can turn in many different places.
Also, train crews are trained well in their craft, whereas many car drivers are barely competent, and some less so (I spend a lot of time in construction work areas, and we're convinced that "orange cones create dumb zones" . . . ).
But the key point is this: Trains can't stop quickly, and are extremely sensitive to changes in grade, etc. Thus, the signs need to be considerably in advance of the point that they are conveying information about.
The point about engineers potentially suffering from what airplane pilots call "head in the cockpit" syndrome while attempting to read an unfamiliar map/ track chart is well-taken. But that gives the conductor something to do, and is the real reason he's there anyway - to be in charge / responsible for the movement authority and speed of the train, as then actually controlled/ implemented by the engineer - essentially, the conductor would then be like a navigator.
MP173 Jeff How many territories are most crew members qualified for? In other words, lets say a person works out of Clinton, Iowa on the UP. Are most qualified both east and west? Great point about uniform markings and signals. I do not see that happening anytime soon either, not with the capex of PTC chewing up a chunk of cash. Ed
It depends on the assignment one regularly holds. When I was on the Boone extra board, I was qualified from Clinton (Illinois Rte 84 Xing) to Fremont (both via Blair or Omaha) and between Des Moines and Mason City/Manly, IA. Although my senioirity would've permitted, I wasn't qualified on the Northwest Iowa grain lines. They are handled out of a different terminal.
For the past 20 or so months I've only worked the west end to Fremont. My other qualifications have expired and I would have to make familiarization trips if I changed runs. Most people kind of fall into the same routine. As soon as they can hold regular assigments/boards or a specific terminal, they tend to have other territory qualifications expire. They only retain the qualification on the runs handled by the terminal/board they are on. Unless, as some do, they jump around between terminals or boards. Either because enough seniority lets them choose to move or not enough seniority forces them to move.
Long time Clinton based employees mostly are only qualifed to Missouri Valley. East of Clinton is the domain of Proviso/West Chicago and Peoria based crews. Iowa crews can't go east of Rte 84 crossing.
I always wonder how many other jobs are like ours?
Start out qualified on everything, then lose most of those qualifications the longer you stay?
yeah, it's a silly system.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Yes and no. A dispatcher is required to train on a desk before he can "mark up". For my employer, it is at least 20 days of training for a qualified dispatcher. A road review, or "qualifying trip" is not required, but recommended.
An "expensive model collector"
PTC will help. The standard I-ETMS PTC display in the cab shows lots of stuff that can help with train handling. It shows curves, grades, signals, switches and position of the train on the line.
Should the industry ever be able to wean itself away from PTC as an overlay to stand-alone PTC, it might get even simpler to operate a train over "foreign" territory.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Ran a certain line with loads the first time going the one direction (as opposed to empties coming back which is what I already did) using that display. Terrain was undulating (up-down-up-down-up-down), and the train was short and heavy. Using that screen to watch the grades, I was able to keep the train in one piece and not have any major run in/run outs.
Not that you want to be dependent on that display, but it is nice to have.
zugmann Ran a certain line with loads the first time going the one direction (as opposed to empties coming back which is what I already did) using that display. Terrain was undulating (up-down-up-down-up-down), and the train was short and heavy. Using that screen to watch the grades, I was able to keep the train in one piece and not have any major run in/run outs. Not that you want to be dependent on that display, but it is nice to have.
I'm guessing you had the Leader system? The UP also uses it on certain lines.
It's got the screen display of track profile, location of bridges and culverts, curves and grades, and grade crossings. Ours doesn't have other tracks, switches or signals. (This screen will eventually be integrated into the PTC system and have those things as well.) It shows current maximum speed (Adjustable for when individual train maximum speed is less than the time table maximum speed.) and upcoming permanent and (usually) temporary speed restrictions. It won't show "unforseen" temporary restrictions that have been issued since the engineer logged into the system at the on duty point. It also shows Form B (work zones) on the profile. It also shows current train speed and predicts future train speed up to 4 or 5 miles out, depending on the "zoom" level of the screen. There are also air brake and buff/draft displays showing what's happening through the train.
The system has an engineer assist option. Newer versions that I've read about (don't know if the UP has or will get it) will actually operate the throttle/dynamic brake instead of just prompting the engineer to change throttle/brake setting. The engineer assist will prompt the engineer to change the throttle or dynamic brake and to even set air to maintain speed as close to maximum, including slow orders, as possible. I love it when it tells me to set 6.5 psi, something I can't do. (A minimum application sets 7 to 8 psi.) Or when it tells me to set air going over a defect detector, something they would rather we not do. Then it says to release that 6.5 psi set, another thing they don't like. They want to see at least a 10 psi reduction to reduce the chance of sticking brakes unless it's a situation where you will again be setting air soon.
The current version only prompts for the head end. It doesn't prompt for any DP consist(s). A newer version (update) is supposed to to that, but I haven't seen one yet. I've learned to ignore the buff/draft force screen when operating the DP separate from the head end. The current system thinks the DP is providing the same tractive or braking effort as the head end displays in-train forces under that assumption.
I like the display. Using it does help one not having to constantly figure out where exactly your train is at in relation to grades, summits and bottoms. Also when you have cleared a defined point, such as the end of a speed restriction. It's a lazy way I guess, but it's nice when you have one less thing to think about while trying to remember a dozen other things.
Using the prompts is another thing. The system is a "clear block" system. It doesn't know where or what signals you are approaching. As far as it knows, you are the only train out there and running on clear blocks. To comply with less favorable signals or approaching a stopping point, the prompts can be suspended. Approaching Form B areas, the system suspendes itself and the engineer has to enable the prompting again.
The assist isn't too bad. It's not the greatest. It constantly is recalulating everything. Sometimes it will prompt you to do one thing and even before you can reach the handle, it has changed it's mind and prompts you to go back to the setting you originally had. They are supposed to be cracking down on usage after the first of the year, wanting everyone to follow the prompts all the time when possible.
It's supposed to help train handling, but has been known to prompt an engineer to do something that causes a train separation. Supposedly, they won't hold an engineer responsible for tearing up a train if he had been following the "Leader." I can't wait for the next 2 mile long, 15000 ton POS that has all kinds of long drawbars, blocks of loads right behind a bunch of empties. I'll gladly follow the prompts. It's funny though, the times I get trains like that I don't have a Leader equipped engine.
I think I've read that Leader has improved fuel conversation by 3 or 4 percent. They were expecting 10 or 11 percent. Still, I would rather have a Leader equipped engine instead of one with EMD's "Smart Consist."
PS. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, they will say a new engineer won't need a pilot or familiarazation trips if the engines have Leader or full blown PTC.
Jeff: Uncle Pete has collected more data than the on-board software can ever hope to handle with their PMV vehicles and updates it constantly. CSX is leasing the UP technology as well. NS is a little further back. BNSF/KCS/CN/CP are further back for various reasons (BNSF's coordinate happy idiots made a major blunder with helicopter borne technology that they are just now recovering from; the engineers just might listen to the surveyors from now on)
All these systems have flaws (some you pointed out) and will all require one of those organic biological computers in the cab still for a long-long time.
jeffhergert I'm guessing you had the Leader system? The UP also uses it on certain lines.
Yep, that's it. Ours is a bit simpler with just CPs, grades, and permanent speed restrictions. The older generation ones us text based prompts (use lookahead speeds to maintain momentum), while the newer versions show what throttle/db notch you are in, and what notch it wants you to be in.
It runs the train pretty aggresively (or I run them like a wuss...don't know which - maybe a little of both?) . Fine for a TV/intermodal, but like you said - toss in a drag freight, or engines with crappy dynamics, and it won't be pretty.
A nice tool, but I wouldn't bet the entire farm on it quite yet.
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