Euclid We have had many versions of this conversation before, and each time, it seems like the entire march of progress stops when it gets to those pesky knuckles.
We have had many versions of this conversation before, and each time, it seems like the entire march of progress stops when it gets to those pesky knuckles.
Just like the movement of a train stops when those pesky knuckles get broken.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
schlimmzugmann UlrichWhoever wrote the article said it. They're still full of crap. And the piece doesn't specify who made that statement. I hope it wasn't some 'official' with the Office of Management and Budget. They probably know as much about railroading as my cat does. It is the underlying assumption of the agreement one of the rail unions is signing with BNSF. Maybe you should address them with your concerns and anger. It's not the non-railroaders who are saying and doing this.
zugmann UlrichWhoever wrote the article said it. They're still full of crap. And the piece doesn't specify who made that statement. I hope it wasn't some 'official' with the Office of Management and Budget. They probably know as much about railroading as my cat does.
UlrichWhoever wrote the article said it.
They're still full of crap.
And the piece doesn't specify who made that statement. I hope it wasn't some 'official' with the Office of Management and Budget. They probably know as much about railroading as my cat does.
It is the underlying assumption of the agreement one of the rail unions is signing with BNSF. Maybe you should address them with your concerns and anger. It's not the non-railroaders who are saying and doing this.
Probably some government weenie sitting behind a computer somewhere running a statistics program coming up with this idea.
Thinks Knuckles is a character in a Sonic the Hedgehog game.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
UlrichBaltACD UlrichBaltACD Let's let the non-railroaders figure all the moves required to fix a broken knuckle? No professional help please - and don't hurt yourselves laughing! That doesn't really help. One person by him/herself would find it difficult to change a knuckle... is that correct? Map out the game plan - 1 man or 2. I can't change a knuckle. You can't run a business. Let's move on.
BaltACD UlrichBaltACD Let's let the non-railroaders figure all the moves required to fix a broken knuckle? No professional help please - and don't hurt yourselves laughing! That doesn't really help. One person by him/herself would find it difficult to change a knuckle... is that correct? Map out the game plan - 1 man or 2.
UlrichBaltACD Let's let the non-railroaders figure all the moves required to fix a broken knuckle? No professional help please - and don't hurt yourselves laughing! That doesn't really help. One person by him/herself would find it difficult to change a knuckle... is that correct?
BaltACD Let's let the non-railroaders figure all the moves required to fix a broken knuckle? No professional help please - and don't hurt yourselves laughing!
Let's let the non-railroaders figure all the moves required to fix a broken knuckle?
No professional help please - and don't hurt yourselves laughing!
Map out the game plan - 1 man or 2.
Au Contraire any idiot can run a business (how well and how long are other matters). I can qualify as a idiot if you prefer.
The reality is that trains, being mechanical things, will break - PERIOD.
They don't fix themselves - PERIOD.
They must be fixed - PERIOD.
How long it takes to resume movement ends up affecting the bottom line and the fluidity of your property.
BaltACDUlrichBaltACD UlrichBaltACD Let's let the non-railroaders figure all the moves required to fix a broken knuckle? No professional help please - and don't hurt yourselves laughing! That doesn't really help. One person by him/herself would find it difficult to change a knuckle... is that correct? Map out the game plan - 1 man or 2. I can't change a knuckle. You can't run a business. Let's move on. Au Contraire any idiot can run a business (how well and how long are other matters). I can qualify as a idiot if you prefer. The reality is that trains, being mechanical things, will break - PERIOD. They don't fix themselves - PERIOD. They must be fixed - PERIOD. How long it takes to resume movement ends up affecting the bottom line and the fluidity of your property.
Changing the knuckle is not the issue. It only takes a few minutes if you halfway know what you are doing. It's not like you have to be touched by the Gods to be able to swap one out.
But with an engineer, you can change a knuckle pretty quick since you are able to bring the parts to you, and not have to walk them in. And not delaying that UPS train behind you a few hours will probably more than make up for your salary.
Yes, you can change a knucle, I can show you, and just about anyone else, how to do so in under 60 seconds.
I can also run a business, did so for several years, two auto part franchise, railroading is more fun.
Was your question about the engineer vs conductor and engineer an actual question you wanted answered?
I was trying to get you to think through all the steps needed to accomplish the task, with only an engineer, and with both., and get the train moving again.
23 17 46 11
The issue is not about knuckle changing, as you would know if you skimmed over the agreements linked. It is the first step in major changes in labor agreements as a result of PTC. As Euclid/Bucyrus said way back, PTC and other technologies will lead to far more automation in operations. As the Dylan song paraphrased goes, "You don't need a railroader to know which way the corporate wind blows." Stormy seas ahead.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Were you responding to me?
Because I aske the question of Ulrich.
As for the agreement you speak of, I will have a copy monday, and any change to the national requires ratification by all members, not just BNSF.
I skimmed over the agreements the other day. This forum was a day late.
I know they want to use PTC as an excuse for one man operations. But there are still many factors that still need more than one man, PTC or not. But the people making these decisions never did the work, so what would they know?* (and that includes some union officials).
I am wondering why we bother with fire extinguishers, smoke detectors and AED machines in railroad buildings. I mean, most of the time we don't need them... so why bother with that extra expense?
*- weren't we discussing the loss of institutional knowledge a few threads back?
Ok - I am a little slow on the uptake, but they can't do anything until they get PTC put into place and working without either screwing up or being down.
Next - it was only the BNSF, no one else - yet.
How many years in the future are we talking at this point.
I don't want to see a one man crew, but they didn't ask me, either.
Is a drone going to be able to just fly around and go tsk tsk tsk? Or can it lift a knuckle and put it close to where needed? Otherwise, what good is it?
Are we working toward running model trains, only much bigger, much heavier, much faster and from how many states away? I am thinking that PTC will stop the train if the engineer isn't responsive. Well, fine and good from the train point of view, but what about someone calling about the engineer that is having some kind of a medical problem that renders him alive, but unable to respond or call for help?
Is he/she just collateral damage - sorry about that?
This was going on pre-Buffett, so it isn't his "dream" all of a sudden.
Anyone want to tackle some answers for me or just continue to grumble about the situation?
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
There are no plans to use drones, what the agreement says is that if drones are used the work belongs exclusively to the master conductors.
There are many more far reaching impacts than drones or knuckles.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman There are no plans to use drones, what the agreement says is that if drones are used the work belongs exclusively to the master conductors. There are many more far reaching impacts than drones or knuckles.
From my understanding of the PTC version being deployed, it won't prevent collisions that happen at restricted speed parameters. Such as Creston, IA a few years ago where one train went past a red intermediate signal (not an absolute) at just above (23 mph IIRC) restricted speed and rear ended the train ahead. There our cases where there is a legitimate and legal need to pass a red signal. PTC allows this at low speeds, the system assuming the train is under control by it's speed. Sadly, that's not always the case as Red Oak, and other collisions like it, have proved.
PTC, like any other thing, can also fail. While I would expect most failures to be the system not letting a train move when it should, it would also be possible for it not to stop a train when it should. For that to happen, the human first has to fail first. Since humans have a pretty good record of not failing (the few instances grab head lines and lead to things like PTC) an individual engine's equipment could be faulty and no one know it. Until it was needed to do what it was supposed to and didn't. (Not to mention about existing equipment and systems that need to interface with PTC. Like the circuit controller that failed in showing a track occupancy at an open switch in Amtrak's PTC territory a year or two ago.)
[I know of at least two instances where the CNW/UP's ATC/cab signal system failed to go to restricting when it should have. One was after the UP added wayside signals and it was following signal indication that prevented a rear end collision. The other was before waysides, except at interlockings. That train's engine passed the required ATC system test at Clinton. While on dead track (unenergized rails) the cab signal stayed at restricting. Upon entering the live (energized) main track, the cab signal went clear. It stayed clear all the way to Boone, where the train went into the yard. Upon leaving the live track and entering the dead track, the cab signal stayed clear, it didn't drop to restricting like it should have. When did it fail? Just then or somewhere earlier? It's possible they went their entire trip with a defective cab signal and were just lucky enough not to encounter a stopped train ahead.]
The findings that two people in a cab is unsafe is just something that a management type pulled out of their... um, hat. A few years ago at my bi-annual employee review, my supervisor said that we didn't need to worry about the conductor going away with PTC. That the railroad (UP in my case) had determined that two people in a cab was safest. That three, such as a brakeman or maybe a student, was unsafe. That two sets of eyes were better than one, but the third mouth led to too much distractions. Of course I agreed. What I was really thinking was, "Yeah right. As soon as you get PTC to where you (the railroad) think it's reliable, you'll have studies showing one person is safer because two leads to distractions." So it's no surprise that BNSF or some other entity would say one is safer.
I can tell you, that there have been times when I've went to work tired. (GASP! It happens. No matter what the laws or railroads say, there are times when a person's sleep cycle doesn't sync with the work schedule. Trying to sleep in daylight, when you aren't tired can be hard. Even when you know you will be going to work in the middle of the night. My cats can sleep whenever they want, I can't. That's why sometimes too much time off between runs is just as bad as too little time.) I've been called to work at 1 or 2 in the morning (my worst time even when fully rested, if any one can be at 1 or 2 in the am) and dreading the trip. Working with a good conductor, one I have a good rapport with, and the time flies by without any feeling of being tired. On the other hand, I've had daylight trips with conductors, after having a good night's sleep, who I get along with OK but they don't engage in much conversation, beyond what the rule book requires. On some of those type trips, my "caboose" seems to be dragging to where you think I hadn't slept in days.
So I don't buy the position that one person is safer than two.
I also have no illusions that eventually, with upgrades and further developments, the ultimate goal is full automation of operations between yards. At first there may be an on board observer, but eventually I would look for that position to go away, too. I think I may be lucky enough not to see that. Which makes me wonder if railroad retirement will still be there when I'm ready to pull the pin.
Jeff
I'm already a master conductor.
Yeah, right.
Whatever. If I can't railroad, I'll find another line of work.
UlrichYes Ed.. my question was about engineer alone verses engineer and conductor, and I think you and zugman answered it. Thank you.
One man crew, engineer only.
Train separates about halfway back, goes into emergency.
Follow radio rule about such event, radio dispatcher and inform.
Secure the train and locomotive per rule.
Walk back to the break, close the anglecock on the front portion, and assess the damage.
Secure the rear portion of the train by rule, do not close the anglecock on that part, you would bottle the air and risking the rear portion running away
Walk back to the locomotive, get the proper knuckle, let’s be nice and say it was the light one, and carry it back to the break.
You replace the broken knuckle.
Now, the rear and the front portion of the train are separated by, let’s say, a car length…how do you couple up the train if you, the only employee, are at the break?
Walk back to the locomotive, release the securement, recover your air and back up guessing the distance, (feeling for the bump) and there it is…secure the locomotive and train by rule, walk back, lace air hoses back up…now, do you trust the joint /coupling made?
If so, release securement on the rear of the train, hope the EOT plays along and the coupling really made, walk back to the head end, and release the securement and go.
Two man crew, engineer and conductor.
Train separates halfway back goes into emergency
Follow radio rule about such an event, radio dispatcher and inform.
Conductor hops off walks back, finds broken knuckle and torn air hose, radios engineer which type knuckle.
Engineer tosses off E type knuckle, knuckle pin and hose plus wrench; light a fussee, sticks fussee in knuckle.
While engineer is doing that, conductor secures rear portion of train, closes anglecock on only the front portion, to recover air.
Engineer radios conductor knuckle/pin/hose/wrench on south side of tracks with fussee….air has been recovered, so conductor hops on last car of the front portion and has the engineer drag him up to pile of junk/parts…if the car he is riding is the damaged car, he stops train next to pile, repairs car, shoves back and couples up, then stretches the train to check the coupling made, then laces the hoses and cuts in the air, releases securement on the rear and, has engineer drag him back up to spot knuckle was originally left, gets off, shoves the locomotive back to himself, gets on and goes.
If the car damaged is the lead car of the rear portion, he piles all the junk on the running board of the last car of the head end, and has the engineer shove him back to the break…beats carrying a knuckle, and fixes the problem as above..
Try picking two fifty pound bags of dog food (or anything close to 100 lbs) and start walking and see how far you can carry them, then imagine you are walking on un-even rocks and dirt.
Out of the two scenarios above, which do you think is faster and best serves the carrier?
And I am being nice here, I didn’t add in a trailing train with a time bonus tied to it, nor are there any crossings blocked, just a plain 80 or 90 car mixed freight out in the boonies.
Utility man concept…again, not being a smart alec, but what in the world makes folks think trains only break down near a usable road?
The Teague Amy BNSF to and from us (PTRA) runs through the middle of Sam Houston National forest, there are no roads, for miles and miles and miles, so how does the utility guy get to the break?
Utility guy replaces 3 or 4 conductors and saves salary money.
But you have to buy each utility guy a truck, welding torch, tools, fuel for the truck, and you have to have enough of them to handle the jobs.
My carrier has 35 locomotives, and I can promise you, at least 2 trains per shift develops issues, not to mention the foreign trains that come on property, or the locomotives that need some form of servicing….2 utility guys per shift couldn’t come close to keeping up, so how many would you need?
Do the salary math and the cost of the trucks and the auto insurance need plus the travel time for the utility guy to get to the train.
UlrichIf there's only person present then only one person can potentially get hurt. Two people can't get hurt when only one person is present. So from that standpoint fewer workers present translates into fewer injuries on the job i.e. a safer workplace.
Yeah.
zugmannUlrichIf there's only person present then only one person can potentially get hurt. Two people can't get hurt when only one person is present. So from that standpoint fewer workers present translates into fewer injuries on the job i.e. a safer workplace. Yeah.
Ulrichzugmann UlrichIf there's only person present then only one person can potentially get hurt. Two people can't get hurt when only one person is present. So from that standpoint fewer workers present translates into fewer injuries on the job i.e. a safer workplace. Yeah. I knew you'd agree.. :)
zugmann UlrichIf there's only person present then only one person can potentially get hurt. Two people can't get hurt when only one person is present. So from that standpoint fewer workers present translates into fewer injuries on the job i.e. a safer workplace. Yeah.
Oh yeah. I'm glad we relocated all railroads into a vacuum in the 1980s (part of the stagger's act, I guess). That helped a lot.
But the only guy in the two man crew doing and dangerous labor is the conductor, who exploits the fact he has an engineer to move the train for him, thereby lessening the amount of labor he has to perform.
Well, the engineer might get tennis elbow, but…..
MookieUlrichIf there's only person present then only one person can potentially get hurt. Two people can't get hurt when only one person is present. So from that standpoint fewer workers present translates into fewer injuries on the job i.e. a safer workplace. I am not the brightest marble in this box, but either you have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek or we need to find a quiet room and talk!
UlrichMookie UlrichIf there's only person present then only one person can potentially get hurt. Two people can't get hurt when only one person is present. So from that standpoint fewer workers present translates into fewer injuries on the job i.e. a safer workplace. I am not the brightest marble in this box, but either you have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek or we need to find a quiet room and talk! I know there are other components to safety. But I did state "from that standpoint". From another standpoint five sets of eyes might prove safer.
Mookie UlrichIf there's only person present then only one person can potentially get hurt. Two people can't get hurt when only one person is present. So from that standpoint fewer workers present translates into fewer injuries on the job i.e. a safer workplace. I am not the brightest marble in this box, but either you have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek or we need to find a quiet room and talk!
There is something here, I just can't seem to grasp it. From my standpoint only - I can't see having something as big as an airliner, or a fully loaded train traveling at more than a creep being operated by only one person. I can't help but imagine there must be plenty of times every day (on all rr's) that 2 people are needed for something out of the ordinary. I am all in favor of progress, but let's do it in inches, not yards. Do we have any safety statistics about 5 vs 2 vs 1?
Johnny
Ed,You left out that the broken knuckle was on the other side of the bridge over a raging river and the bridge has no walkway.
It is best that I do not reply to some of the moronic statements made here!
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