gardendance Dehusman, Even though I enjoy any opportunity to advocate my sailboat, we really should discuss it in private message, or in http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/230465/2581537.aspx#2581537 Of course I assume you've asking if I've seen these from my sailboat. I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread. I'm on the Delaware River at Philadelphia's far northeast, in fact my club is the next to the last building before the Bucks County line. Although I must have sailed by Carney's Point when I delivered the boat from Toms River NJ, I don't think I knew there was a car float there. I also have no idea where Pigeon Point is, but since you include it I guess it must be on the other side of the river from Carney's Point. If you want to get a look you'll have to sail with me, and the distance means we'll have to spend the night together, which means you'll have to buy me dinner first
Dehusman,
Even though I enjoy any opportunity to advocate my sailboat, we really should discuss it in private message, or in http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/230465/2581537.aspx#2581537
Of course I assume you've asking if I've seen these from my sailboat. I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread.
I'm on the Delaware River at Philadelphia's far northeast, in fact my club is the next to the last building before the Bucks County line.
Although I must have sailed by Carney's Point when I delivered the boat from Toms River NJ, I don't think I knew there was a car float there. I also have no idea where Pigeon Point is, but since you include it I guess it must be on the other side of the river from Carney's Point. If you want to get a look you'll have to sail with me, and the distance means we'll have to spend the night together, which means you'll have to buy me dinner first
Patrick: Go to "The Official Eleanor Roosevelt (And Anything Else Non-Topical) thread." Its a sanctioned non-topical thread. You can discuss your boat there.
Here is the link: http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/172903.aspx?sort=ASC&pi332=61
Kyle Murphy Siding jimnorton There is nothing illegal about security employees firing warning shots. I believe there is something illegal about that. Where does the bullet come down, and who or what does it hit? Go out in your yard an fire a warning shot at that naughty old squirrel in your yard and then let us know what the police say about the legalities. Are you and Kyle the same person, using 2 forum ID's? I am not the same person as whoever "jimnorton" is!!! As I have told you before this is my one and only forum ID!!!! If you continue spreading your lies, I will report your post for personal attacks by spreading lies.
Murphy Siding jimnorton There is nothing illegal about security employees firing warning shots. I believe there is something illegal about that. Where does the bullet come down, and who or what does it hit? Go out in your yard an fire a warning shot at that naughty old squirrel in your yard and then let us know what the police say about the legalities. Are you and Kyle the same person, using 2 forum ID's?
jimnorton There is nothing illegal about security employees firing warning shots.
There is nothing illegal about security employees firing warning shots.
I am not the same person as whoever "jimnorton" is!!! As I have told you before this is my one and only forum ID!!!! If you continue spreading your lies, I will report your post for personal attacks by spreading lies.
Going from memory alone... With regard to warning shots, the U.S. is no longer the Old West or the high seas. In common law and in many civil jurisdictions, discharging a weapon is an assault on the person intended to receive the "message." With many caveats and exceptions, a property owner or agent may use the threat of deadly force to protect property, but not actual force, which includes 'warning shots.'
In all cases, a shooter is responsible for where his or her bullet goes and must accept the consequences of where it finishes its trajectory.
Even "blanks" or other less lethal "dummy rounds" when used can constitute assault if a reasonable person would have felt their life threatened.
If you need them, I will try to dig out citations on Monday. Legal research is next to impossible from the iPad.
That said, it is unlikely that railroad police or security guards are going to fire at or near taggers.
-Steve
Steve SweeneyDigital Editor, Hobby
Steve,
The thread is going off track and into the realm of gun control. Let's not got there.
Norm
Hi Steve,
It is great to see you here on the weekend! Also, thanks for posting the forum policies at the top.
With all due respect, though, this thread is drifting into gun politics, and really shouldn't exist at all.
This thread is not drifting to gun control or gun politics. Kyle has pulled it to assault and murder.
Mac
Most railroad special agents and or railroad police are commissioned peace officers, and like almost every cop I know, the very last thing they ever want to do is remove their weapon from its holster, much less discharge it.
Unlike in the movies, once they fired their weapon, they can count on a week of administrative leave and an Internal Affairs investigation, even if the shot was justified.
Railroad cops would most likely face, at a minimum, a rough day answering questions for the DA in whose jurisdiction the event happened, maybe even face a grand jury, which is not pleasant in the least, I can personally vouch for that.
And most cops have no desire to kill someone, ever, under any circumstances.
Tasers, on the other hand…..
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Lets get back on topic. If you have nothing positive to offer in ways of curbing graffiti vandalism then please don't derail this thread again. It was initially started to bring awareness to the issue, question why so little is being done to prevent and offer up ideas as a way to discourage it.
1) We all know the whys and why nots graffiti exist on freigtht cars.
2) We all know that the primary purpose of a freight car is to move freight.
3) We all know that railroads are in the business to make money.
4) We all know the nation's rail network is vast and ungaurded
5) We all know shooting at people is wrong in most cases.
So, lets get back on topic. I spoke with a group a couple years back which had developed a system for documenting and creating a data base of graffiti. The group offered this service to cities and towns to track graffiti, keep a file of instances for prosecution, identify how prolific a vandal was and then help catch these criminals. It had proved successful with numerous larger cities.
I then asked had they approached the railroads regarding the numerous defacement of their railcars. The answer was "yes....but there was no interest." There lies the issue and why this thread was started. The railroads are doing nothing meaningful to discourage this. I am outraged that our railroads are covered in graffiti. Lets discuss ways to address this problem.
Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL
Another instance where the railroads drop the ball. Surely someone is noticing when one day cars are spotted clean then picked up tagged with graffiti. Its obvious where hot pockets of vandalism are.
Yet, carry a camera trackside and watch them go into action! A friend of mine photographed CSX in rural Kentucky from the roadway. The seasoned railroaders there couldn't discern him from a terrorist and called the law. Months later, the Office of Homeland Security visited his home here in Huntsville and even contacted NASA where he worked!
Lets see some of that effort go toward those who actually trespass and do damage to the property. Its a joke that photographers are considered the threat. If you want unchallenged and wide open access take along a back pack of spray paint. It obviously rolls out the red carpet!
So far one of the best posts regards a version of Rain-X for windshields as a component of freight car paint. The spray paint would ball and roll off like rain does on a Rain-X treated windshield. Good thinking.
(Yes.....we know there is an expense)
There are graffiti resistant paints and coatings available. Not sure of the cost.
jimnorton So far one of the best posts regards a version of Rain-X for windshields as a component of freight car paint. The spray paint would ball and roll off like rain does on a Rain-X treated windshield. Good thinking.
How do you paint on the reporting marks and data, all that is spray painted on?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Dehusman asks: "How do you paint on the reporting marks and data, all that is spray painted on?"
Coatings have been used on MM&A's boxcar #1 which was a modern day State of Maine Products red white and blue scheme as well as on Tropicana's latest fleet of white boxcars. Nothing has really been reported on the success of each. Tropicana must not be taking advantage of the coating as many of their cars carry graffiti.
I recently contacted Tropicana asking why these original intent of these coating were not being taken advantage of? I received a generic form letter from Pepsico/Tropicana that didn't even address the question. Apparently, the apathy of the industry has tainted the iconic Juice Train.
A typical boxcar has 14 panels. Of these only 5 are usually used for data. that leaves 9 panels that could be coated to guard against graffiti. That would leave the others uncoated to accept paint or decals for new or reapplied data. But then again, maybe a chemist could offer a barrier that accepts the railroads data while repelling Krylon.
I'd like to back up and address the comments regarding how graffiti abatement can't be justified as a financial return.
Currently, CSX is painting murals and planting trees in the communities it serves. This requires CSX manpower, CSX purchased materials and the services of a local artist and landscaper. All come with a price yet offer nothing from a financial return standpoint. The public does not look at these murals and freshly planted trees and think CSX. Shouldn't these resources go toward beautifying CSX first? As a stockholder I see a better financial return on a positive public image through better looking equipment than through trees and murals.
I support corporations. I believe they should make as much money as possible, pay CEOs whatever they desire and hire and fire whoever they please. But at the same time I expect them to be good corporate citizens. Our graffiti covered railroads are not good corporate citizens.
jimnorton Another instance where the railroads drop the ball. Surely someone is noticing when one day cars are spotted clean then picked up tagged with graffiti. Its obvious where hot pockets of vandalism are. Yet, carry a camera trackside and watch them go into action! A friend of mine photographed CSX in rural Kentucky from the roadway. The seasoned railroaders there couldn't discern him from a terrorist and called the law. Months later, the Office of Homeland Security visited his home here in Huntsville and even contacted NASA where he worked! Lets see some of that effort go toward those who actually trespass and do damage to the property. Its a joke that photographers are considered the threat. If you want unchallenged and wide open access take along a back pack of spray paint. It obviously rolls out the red carpet!
And they can't get vandals who graffiti their equipment? I would hope they could also find the vandals home and deliver them a check and make them do community service. If they like to paint, then make them paint over graffiti.
jimnorton Another instance where the railroads drop the ball. Surely someone is noticing when one day cars are spotted clean then picked up tagged with graffiti. Its obvious where hot pockets of vandalism are.
But I know of one interchange that takes place wherein the shortline crew leaves the cars to be picked up on air - the Class 1 picking the cars up doesn't have to individually inspect the cars. If they get tagged between the time they are spotted for pickup and the time the Class 1 picks them up, there's no way to account for it.
Too, some of these taggers are quick - they know their personal trademark and can execute it in minutes. Spend 20 minutes "in the hole" for a meet, and voila! New graffiti! Whole car "art" notwithstanding, most cars are tagged multiple times, the end result being graffiti running the length of the car.
Yet, carry a camera trackside and watch them go into action!
We've seen enough accounts of that here to appreciate the irony. The thing is, we're the low hanging fruit. Taggers generally aren't standing trackside with a bag full of spray paint, waiting for the railroad to deliver their "canvas." And we're out during the day (night photo shoots are a pain to set up, even if the results are often spectacular) in photogenic locales. The taggers likely favor the dark, and in places where they won't be seen.
Too, some railroaders can't figure out why anyone would want to take pictures of trains. For them, it's just a job with some big machinery of no particular import. In fact, that was the gist of the "wave" thread(s) being discussed elsewhere.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Looked up the Sherwin -Williams Anti Graffiti coating.
It doesn't "repel" paint, what it does is make it easier to clean off. Taggers can still paint over it and cover it with graffiti. A coated car can still be tageed the same and will look exactly the same as a non-coated car post tagging. It just makes it easier to remove with a high pressure spray washer or hand cleaning with a brush.
For a transit situation where they run their equipment through a washrack on a regular basis it might have an application. For freight cars that never go through a wash rack and are never power washed it doesn't make a very good case. Sherwin-Williams estimates the cost per sq foot to remove the graffiti without the coating is about $3, while the cost per sq foot with the coating is between $1.50 and $2.25.
A 50 ft boxcar tagged 5 ft high is 250 sq feet, which costs between $375 and $560 to clean one side of one car. If somebody wants to take exception to the estimates, take it up with Sherwin-Williams, they are manufacturer of the coating under discussion and the ones that provided the data, I'm just reporting what they wrote.
Good point. It would appear that graffiti coatings are not cost effective at this point in time. The .99 cent spray paint method (25 cans covering 10 sq ft) would allow the graffiti to be covered for a cost of $24.75 vs. $375.00!
One idea brought forth was a solution through the structure of the car sides. Instead of the ribs (steel channel shapes) turned closed side out these could installed open side out creating a more difficult terrain to paint over. Another idea would be a panel surface other than smooth steel. Imagine a surface with a roof walk welded to it. While this is a stretch, it illustrates the point of having a surface that does not lend itself to easy spray paint application due to the many rectangular voids.
While the boxcar is difficult to protect the enclosed autorack is not. By enlarging the perforations on the side panels a surface can be created that still stops rocks but does not offer enough consistent surface area to accept graffiti. This could be done with new cars with little if any cost of redesigned panels.
But I still don't get what the point is of all this? This is a lot of money to spend to protect against taggers. I'd rather if the railroads and car leasers have the money for this time sink, that they spend it on say, new tank cars for crude oil service or something else that isn't just about some foamers in a huff over paint (that's a pun there, bit of a stretch, but it was intended). There is no cost effective way to clean up the tagging, because every penny spent on it is a penny that might as well be burned in a bon fire. IT is a waste of resources.
How about mounting a few high pressure water cannons to highrailers and have someone go round and spray the graffiti off the cars and vandals if they are seen. Also give them some spray can to jut paint over the graffiti that doesn't come off. Personally I think and slightly off color patch is better than a tag.
.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
It would be interesting to see one of the spray can crowd buy 6 sheets of plywood and nail them lengthwise to a fence to make a 4 ft high, 48 ft long surface, then have them buy spray cans and see how long it takes to spray paint over that surface with their 99 cent spray cans.
Then repeat that 139 more times and see how long it takes and how much paint they use. (average train has 70 cars x 2 sides = 140 surfaces to paint).
And do it rain or shine, day or night, high wind or calm, winter or summer.
Since carmen commonly operate in pairs they can have a helper. I wouldn't want to be unreasonable.
Still some don't get it. The elementary .99 cent spray paint analogy must be way over one's head!
One more time. Imagine taking a thumb print of paint and pasting that right in the middle of the Mona Lisa. These vandals feel their work is equal to such. So, .99 cents worth of spray paint can deface these works of graffiti just like the thumb print on the Mona Lisa! And knowing that deflates much tagger ego.
Why don't those of you who want to encourage graffiti vandalism start your own thread? Repeating the point is getting old.
jimnortonStill some don't get it. Why don't those of you who want to encourage graffiti vandalism start your own thread? Repeating the point is getting old.
This thread is posing an unusual dilemma. On one hand, trespassing is an ultra-critical issue because it threatens the industry mainly by potential liability and as an opening for terrorism. Railroaders and railfans are in 100% solidarity on the premise that trespassing is a zero-tolerance offense.
On the other hand, graffiti challenges this solidarity because it is powerful and irrefutable evidence of undetected trespassing. It thumbs its nose at the industry’s zero tolerance. This is the great dilemma that has been the de facto theme of this entire thread.
The only way to resolve this conundrum is to make excuses for graffiti and say it is something that can’t be prevented, does not matter to the mission of hauling things, does not damage the railcar, is an eyesore that railroads are willing to tolerate, and the damage to image and brand does not matter to railroads because they don’t own the cars.
And therefore, the industry should not be criticized for the presence of graffiti and the inconsistent trespassing attitude that the graffiti reveals.
Ironically, despite having no public recognition whatsoever, the private covered hopper car owners do a somewhat admirable job of keeping their rail cars free of graffiti. You can see numerous instances where the sides of these cars have been "patched" to cover over graffiti. Yet, the Class Ones which have great public recognition through TV and radio exposure, are content with a trackside image of crime and decay.
Omya, which ships rock slurry in its attractive fleet of blue and white tanks cars, reportedly does not allow shipments to leave with graffiti. Also, a traffic manager for one of the private owner lease firms stated that his company spends a "considerable amount" on graffiti removal in order to provide their customers with cars in "good running order."
These are postitive instances as there are some pockets of pride in the industry.
Euclid: That's a profound point. Very well stated!
Murphy Siding:
"My point, whether you agree or not, is that railroads should be spending their time, effort and money on things a lot more important than grafitti, as the shippers and receivers don't feel that grafitti abatement ranks really high on the list of things they are concerned with."
Jim adds:
What are your thoughts on CSX spending money planting trees and painting murals? I am sure shippers don't rate these acts of touchy feely do goodism high on the list either. Thats a whole lot of tree and paint money which would be better spent on CSX and its stockholders.
Planting trees and painting murals good.......policing and keeing the property in better order bad. Right?
jimnortonOmya, which ships rock slurry in its attractive fleet of blue and white tanks cars, reportedly does not allow shipments to leave with graffiti. Also, a traffic manager for one of the private owner lease firms stated that his company spends a "considerable amount" on graffiti removal in order to provide their customers with cars in "good running order."
That's easy when the cars are loaded at one spot.
But many cars go all over the place. Not quite as easy.
And what does a railroad do when private cars are graffitti'd at a private industry? Railroad has zero say in that. Refuse to pull the car? Be great news for the trucking firms that will get that business.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
The solution to the problem is money.
Railroads could easily spend millions physically securing the ROW, adding more personnel to monitor problem areas, you name it.
And for those commodities which represent a security risk, that's already happening.
But the money has to come from somewhere. For those high risk commodities, it's not hard to pass the cost on to the shipper, as is already being done.
But in the case of low risk commodities, it wouldn't take long to reach the tipping point where the traffic could just as easily go by other means.
So you weigh the two sides, and decide if the additional cost of security is more beneficial to the bottom line than some spray paint on the sides of the cars.
As you look at graffitied cars, look at the types of cars, and the traffic they carry. I'm betting that unit trains have less graffiti than loose cars (the "salad shooter" and orange juice trains notwithstanding). Why? Because they spend most of their lives in motion - it's hard to tag a moving target.
Consider, too, that passing siding in the middle of nowhere on a low-to-moderate traffic line. How do you propose to protect it? Is it worth the cost? Do you need a 24/7 guard for a location that might see three trains take the siding in a day? Remember - a tagger can do his/her deed in a matter of minutes. If they live near that siding, they can grab their bag of paint when they hear the train blowing for the crossing nearby and be ready and waiting (and hiding) when the train arrives. Five minutes after the train arrives, they've added their mark. If the train stays longer, they can get more cars, and be gone before anyone discovers their presence.
Remember, too, the problem the railroads have had in the southwestern desert. Organized criminals, knowing exactly which container to raid, cause a train to go into emergency in the middle of nowhere. By the time anyone can reach the location (5000' is a 15-20 minute walk on good surfaces), the container is cleaned out, they're gone, and there's nothing left but some footprints and tire tracks. They may even close the container back up and hang the broken seal back in place to minimize chances of detection at oh-dark-thirty in the morning.
It all comes down to cost vs benefit, and in and of themselves, graffiti-less cars are no less capable of carrying a given cargo than those with the sides completely covered.
Euclid Railroaders and railfans are in 100% solidarity on the premise that trespassing is a zero-tolerance offense.
Railroaders and railfans are in 100% solidarity on the premise that trespassing is a zero-tolerance offense.
Are we? The railroads tolerate an awful lot of trespassing. Under no circumstances could anyone reasonably call it a zero-tolerance situation. I once Walked from Mormon Rocks area along the new BNSF right of way to Sullivan's Curve. Before track 3 went down. There were railroad police nearby at the Highway protecting the heavy equipment. They didn't give a damn about me or any of the other users of the Mormon Rocks areas.
Similarly, I know people that hike around various parts of Donner without permission. UP would certainly prefer you call and ask, but they are very tolerant of it.
I'd say that tresspassing has a very low tolerance, especially in Urban and yard areas, but over all, it is absolutely not zero. And that's just railroaders. Certainly, amongst railfans that tolerance is far broader.
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