I am now 18 years old and a high school graduate and have loved trains all my life and always have wanted to be a railroader. I will be beginning conductor training at the tourist railroad I volunteer at and I have a few questions before I seriously consider making it my career. I know it isn't easy and being the lowest person on the pole will make my life difficult and that the shifts can be 12 hours long with only 8 hours between shifts. I know I will not have any days off and be on call 24/7 as well as being one of the first people laid off in a traffic downturn. I know I will be assigned to work the worst yard and transfer jobs of the division. I also have my driver's licence.
To begin, would it be wise to get certified in a trade before becoming a conductor in case of layoffs? I thought I read somewhere that working for a short-line is a little better than working for a Class I but they only hire experienced people. Is this true everywhere? Does anyone have any advice what to and not to say at an interview and if I get rejected the first round, should I keep trying?
I won't be thinking of signing up for another year or so yet.
Any comments or tidbits of advice are appreciated.
Thank you
Lone Geep
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Whatever you do, play down any 'railfan' characteristics, and keep stressing safety at every chance you get. (This may sound cynical but it is not). Get as professional an attitude toward running as you can, starting now, and hone it... regardless of any razzing the old hands may try to give you.
As has been noted here, many modern railroad managements are worried that rail enthusiast employees will get watching trains, and get distracted, and get injured or killed. Or get someone else injured or killed. "Don't be that guy".
Overmod Whatever you do, play down any 'railfan' characteristics, and keep stressing safety at every chance you get. (This may sound cynical but it is not). Get as professional an attitude toward running as you can, starting now, and hone it... regardless of any razzing the old hands may try to give you. As has been noted here, many modern railroad managements are worried that rail enthusiast employees will get watching trains, and get distracted, and get injured or killed. Or get someone else injured or killed. "Don't be that guy".
A railroader at the railroad I volunteer at told me "Rail buffs don't make good railroaders" for that reason. Is there anything that I have said above that you would advise me not to say at an interview?
Thank you very much
The “Don’t be that guy” advice is excellent, and very true.
After a while, you realize all locomotives pretty much work the same, and the “railfan” interest goes away, but keep that aspect to yourself during the hire process and your training.
Hire out as soon as you can, simply because that will establish your seniority.
There will be a respectable loss of old head employees in the next few years, the retirement rules changed and allow for you to retire at 60 with 30 years of service, and a lot of the career railroaders will be taking that option, so getting onboard now will be a benefit to you.
If you go with a class 3 or class 2 road, (switching/terminal and local/regional) railroad, the plus side is you go home every night, but the overall pay is less.
Class 1s pay better in terms of total amount earned annually, but expect to be away from home days and weeks at a time, and the climb up the seniority ladder will be longer, at a regional/local road, you will advance faster.
As was also pointed out, during the hire process, stress your safety attitude, and trust me, nothing out here is worth taking a risk for, not a thing.
You will be expected to show up, ready for work, and be consistent in that,
It is a tough and rough life, but it can produce a good living too, it is hard on spouses, so if you are not married, realize it will be tough to find a spouse that will put up with the long absences, but they are out there.
You already know the drawbacks as you state in your original post, you will be low man on the totem pole, but It gets better.
There will be days when you absolutely hate your job, and days you are amazed they actually pay you to do this, not to many careers out there like this one, but overall, I have had more of the “Wow” days than he “Oh crap” days, so….
No shame in showing up, going through training, hen realizing it is not for you.
A lot of romanticizing and fiction has been written about railroading, it is nothing like the movies portray it, or most books too…it is hard, frustrating, often dirty work, but very rewarding at the same time..
You will know if it is for you fairly quickly, we lose more guys the first year after training, because it turns out the job was nothing like they thought.
23 17 46 11
Get a degree kid !!!
Then go railroading!!
Trust me.
Randy
Ed's advice notwithstanding, Randy has a valid point - whether it be a degree or a skill, have a fall-back. Railroads are going great guns right now, but that can change, and you can find yourself back on the street.
Or you might find that despite your current enthusiasm, railroading is not for you.
Ed hints at something that's been said here before - the second best day of your life is the day you get hired by the railroad. The best day is the one you leave...
I know a few railroaders who are rail enthusiasts. I see them at shows, and once during a fortuitous (for me) cab ride, I took a picture of the train for the engineer. It's also been said that most are "closet" railfans.
Safety has been mentioned. You're on a tourist line - learn your rules and know them well. Whatever railroad you hire out on will likely have a different rulebook, but it won't be that different. If you demonstrate your "non-foamer" knowledge of the rules, it can't hurt you.
I have, however, heard it suggested that one not let on about their involvement with tourist lines, exactly for that "foamer" aspect.
Should you reach the interview stage, your behavior will be important. If you "light up" like a "foamer" when asked about "foamer" aspects of your tourist road, that could be a red flag for the reasons already given. Focus on safety and operational experience - who cares if you're running the first RS-3 the NYC bought?
Whatever way you go, the best of luck to you!
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Well, not just something to fall back on. A lot of HR computers on the class ones will kick you out of the system if you don't have a secondary education.
At some point your body might decide that you need an easier job so you go looking for a promotion into management, without a secondary education you limit what they will allow you to do.
Randy Stahl Get a degree kid !!! Then go railroading!! Trust me. Randy
If I would have went railroading first instead of a getting a degree - I'd be working some pretty decent jobs right now.
As of right now I have zero interest in the management side of my company. Unless they seriously change how they treat those guys, I won't subject myself to that.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
lone geepAny comments or tidbits of advice are appreciated.
It's a job. If you get hired you can always quit if you don't like it. But the earlier you hire out, the better.
As far as working, yeah you will be the low man, but with the new rules/laws, it isn't as bad as it used to be. 10 hours undisturbed rest after each day (on freight roads), 48 hours off after 6 consecutive starts, 72 after 7 days, and even our extra lists have regular, albeit rotating, rest days.
You may also hire out (or quickly bump into) a terminal that is almost all yard and locals, so you will go home every day. . Even if you do the road, at least in my terminal, you take a train from your home terminal to an away terminal, take rest at the hotel, then bring a train back the next day. You aren't gone for more than 2 days, and that's pretty extreme for our guys. Now other railroads, other places may be different in that respect. And like an old timer likes to say: "All jobs out here suck. They just start at different times."
As far as schooling - I used to recommend it, but with the current economic climate and school costs, I just can't for most people anymore. If you are good at (and like) math or science, then get a degree in that. But don't make the mistake many others make and spend tens of thousands of dollars on a useless generic degree (unless someone else is willing to pay for it!). Instead, go learn a skill - electrical, mechanical, something that you can use to find quick and good employment.
Thank you all for your time. For a trade, I'm considering an electrician and/or a plumber (there is a shortage of plumbers in my area) Since I'm in Canada and grew up with the CP, I would like to work for them, but with the dustup at the top, would it still be a wise idea? If a relative was dying, would the crew caller say something to the effect of "Too bad, so sad, get back to work." or is there an allowance for family emergencies.
Zugmann- Are the days off for railroaders with seniority?
Thank you very much.
lone geepZugmann- Are the days off for railroaders with seniority?
I have zero clue about CP, or Canadian RR law. So even the rest days would be different for you. I have no clue how that would work for you.
For my road here in the US, the extra list is assigned rest days that rotate. So person A on the list has Mon-Tues off, then person B has wed-thurs, etc. Then they work 6 days and start their rest days again. So person A would work W-Th-F-S-M, then get Tues-Wed off.
zugmann Randy Stahl Get a degree kid !!! Then go railroading!! Trust me. Randy If I would have went railroading first instead of a getting a degree - I'd be working some pretty decent jobs right now. As of right now I have zero interest in the management side of my company. Unless they seriously change how they treat those guys, I won't subject myself to that.
Field level management has become the 'indentured servants' of railroading. Most are now being hired off the street - given just enough training that they won't immediately kill themselves or those they 'supervise'; while being paid less than the craft personnel they 'supervise'. Being hired from the street - they serve at Senior Managements discretion - as changeable as that may be.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
zugmann lone geepZugmann- Are the days off for railroaders with seniority? I have zero clue about CP, or Canadian RR law. So even the rest days would be different for you. I have no clue how that would work for you. For my road here in the US, the extra list is assigned rest days that rotate. So person A on the list has Mon-Tues off, then person B has wed-thurs, etc. Then they work 6 days and start their rest days again. So person A would work W-Th-F-S-M, then get Tues-Wed off.
On my road, in my area, the only jobs with assigned rest days are yard jobs and locals. Those that have regularly assigned people. The extra boards and thru freight pools have no assigned rest days. A couple of pools that cover essentially long distance locals are set up, on the conductor's side but not the engineer's, so that you work (normally) a rotation of out day one, back home day two, and are off on day three. The engineer's side works out and back, day after day until they hit the US Federal Requirement for 48/72 hours off.
How things are arranged in a specific area is going to hinge on what contracts are in effect there.
About a dozen or so years ago, we had a pilot project of assigned rest days, similar to Zug's example, on our extra boards. It didn't last too long, maybe a year or so, before the railroad pulled out of the agreement. Our extra boards have wage guaranties and at some of the locations the amount of guarantee being paid went up. In those places they didn't work enough between rest days to break guarantee for the pay period.
Jeff
You're young... get the degree if you can. Don't bet your life and career on seniority... lots of people have done that and lost out because things change. Make yourself as valuable as possible and keep your options open. Without a degree you will always march to someone else's drumbeat... with the degree you have many more options.
I wouldn't say you need to get a degree, but talking about learning a trade such as electrician or plumbing, or some other skill, isn't a bad idea. Not only might it help when things are slack, but also should the railroads ever get around to reducing or eliminating on board crew members. (The railroads employ electricians, mechanics and signal/track maintenance people. Those positions may someday be the bulk of the blue collar work force on railroads. Hopefully, not for another 15 or 20 years though.)
I don't know about other roads, but the UP used to require either a few years work experience or education (not necessarily a degree, but that you were doing something constructive) to be considered. The possibility of hiring out right out of high school may not be possible. At least at some of the class one carriers.
lone geep: If you have any interest in plumbing please check it out. In my area plumbers get treated like brain surgeons (difficult to get a speedy appointment) and seem to be very well paid. They work for themselves or with others in a company, can easily transfer their skills to other states or cities, set their own hours, wear what they like, meet new people daily and go home at night at the same time. And as a plumber once told me, "There're only two things to remember: water goes downhill, and don't chew your nails."
I'd think more than twice about taking a job where I had to curb my enthusiasm for the very things that attracted me to it in the first place. If you were a plumber, you could wholeheartedly embrace your inner railfan, maybe even work on your tourist railroad, and possibly pursue a college degree in the evening. Plus, you would never fear being laid off or out of work.
I think a fellow like you who knows where he is in life, and is considering his life's work, is in an enviable position. There's excellent advice in all the above postings. Best of luck as you discern your future.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Better a college degree than trade school. What you learn in trade school will be outdated in five or ten years...I know people who took four year auto mechanics, photography programs, heavy equipment repair courses back in the 80s.... all of it has long since become useless and outdated. A college degree on the other hand is based on learning a complex subject from basic principles... the laws of physics don't change... so a degree based on the fundamentals will not depreciate. I'd only look at trade school if you're actually going to work in that trade and you're committed to upgrading your skills every few years. Otherwise you may as well learn Latin for all the good it will do you.
College degrees are the same. A few years later, and all that knowledge one learns is gone if they don't use it. Trust me, I threw out the textbooks and binders full of work that might as well have been written in Latin, for what I could understand of it a few years later. But need a train switched out and blocked? I'm your man. Of course if I ever try to go into management, I guess that piece of paper in a drawer somewhere would possibly open up a few doors. Who knows why. Seems silly.
PS. I know the OP is from Canada. So maybe it is different up there. I wouldn't know.
Things change over time. Any one in a career, whether it be a railroader, plumber, lawyer, or brain surgeon, is going to have to always learn and keep up with current procedures and practices. If you only know what you knew when you originally completed your training will be unemployable within a few years. (More or less depending on what field you are in. Some fields change faster than others.)
The news is full of reports of people with years of experience in careers with degrees who have trouble finding new jobs because they are viewed as not being up on the latest developments in their field. Especially if they have been out of work longer than a few months.
Trade school or college - teach the basics. They indicate to the employer that you are trainable, if you complete either course of study it shows that you have had the follow through to obtain the goal you set for yourself. If you are trainable you can get hired and be trained in the practices that the hiring company wants you to follow. Once hired to any job in any profession - your mileage may vary!
tree68 I have, however, heard it suggested that one not let on about their involvement with tourist lines, exactly for that "foamer" aspect.
It really funny how that works actually. I have had yardmasters tell me my guys are more professional and on the rules than his guys are! I run what I would guess is one of the bigger tourist railroads in the US as far as equipment, crew, and trackage, and I have to say I really don't have any foamers who volunteer for me. Some of the guys like the history, some of them just think its cool to run trains or whatever but very few are photographing foamer types. Of those that are, they are honestly the most professional guys I have, as they come from jobs such as law enforcement, pipeline companies, environmental cleanup and the big railroads. Some are former air traffic controllers, ministers, construction workers and what have you. They enjoy working on trains (duh!) but I would not call them a foamer. I was chatting with a trainmaster from one of the railroads we operate a small portion on and they were holding us for a train. He made a remark about how our guys must be thrilled to get to see it. I told him the passengers will like it but my guys could care less, they want to get to the depot and have lunch! He was taken aback and I explained we are just like you man... trying to run our train and get home safe and enjoy doing it.
Being a foamer in an interview is not good, but if you have a reasonable explanation "I think trains are interesting but I am more interested in the good paying job and opportunities for advancement" line, your chances should be fine.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
NKP guy And as a plumber once told me, "There're only two things to remember: water goes downhill, and don't chew your nails."
And as a plumber once told me, "There're only two things to remember: water goes downhill, and don't chew your nails."
Except it's not all water.
Thank you all for your advice. So far, I think I will be get my plumbing and my electrician ticket before trying out on the railroad. I do have a few more questions though. If a relative was dying, would the crew caller say something to the effect of "Too bad, so sad, get back to work." or is there an allowance for family emergencies?
Family Emergencys are accomodated - but - that doesn't mean that when the emergency happens and you are in the middle of nowhere that a helicopter will be dispatched to get you home.
ChuckCobleigh NKP guy And as a plumber once told me, "There're only two things to remember: water goes downhill, and don't chew your nails." Except it's not all water.
I was told 3 things about plumbing:
Effluent goes down.
Stink goes up.
Get paid on Friday.
With electrical and plumbing knowledge, you might have an easier time getting into the mechanical department. Still get to work on trains, much more of a set schedule and location of work and so forth.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
I went to work for BN right out of college back in 1972. I ended up working in Coal Operations where my boss and I followed the1st train out of the Belle Ayr mine destined for PSC at Pueblo. At Alliance, a couple of rail fans from Denver to snap pics. The cars on the 110 car train were brand new. One of the rail fans asked me why the cars were not lined up in consecutive order. After all, if the cars were lined up consecutively, it would make for a better picture. I walked away. To get a trade such as an electrician or plumber, you have to apprentice. Apprenticeships can take 4 years to complete and schooling is needed. If you are serious about a trade, try carpentry by working with a reputable builder or a roofing contractor. You will be on the extra board for quite a while and that is a tough place to be if you want a relationship with a the person of your dreams. That person has to be very understanding. You'll end up working on most if not all of the major holidays.
On the flip side, the work is generally good if not great. It is kind of like being a cop. You will have lots of work hours where you are not challenged (boring?) and a few hours of pure adrenalin type excitement. You always have to pay attention to what you are doing and heed the rule that states "when in doubt, take the safe course". I would recommend that you sign on with a Class I, not a tourist outfit as the rail fan in you will blossom. This is a potential career for you and approach it like a professional should!
All good advice, Geep, some better than others but all good ... particularly those recommending as much education as you can handle before and after starting a railroad career.
But I'd take the bit about rail fans not making good railroaders with a grain of salt. Let me illustrate that with a story from a few years ago. I was in a meeting where my boss at the time, the Assistant Vice President of Operating Administration, announced the end of all NYC passenger service west of Buffalo (this was just before Amtrak) and there would be no more Twentieth Century Limited. His exact words,"We will NOT have a moments silence for the Century's passing", were followed by him taking a long, slow sip of water.
Uncle Bob, as we called him, was as much or more a rail fan as the rest of us and I'd say he was fairly successful at it.
By the way, he was a Transportation Engineering graduate of the University of Illinois. And now you know why the NYC's Empire Service colors were Illini orange and blue.
ChuckAllen, TX
No matter what profession you chose, you should always have a back up skill(s). 50 years ago when I worked on the PENN RR a lot of the local brakemen and other yard men had back up professions. As far as being a railroader goes you have to expect changes but if you like trains you will be one of the lucky ones in that you will love your work and it will never really be work, good luck.
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