Blowing at Crossings

[The Block House]

Right now in my town there is a big debate about trains blowing at crossings. We have a situation were two railroads have parallel tracks and the traffic at times can be quite heavy. What are the rules concerning blowing at a crossing and can a comunity adopt an ordanance that requires the trains to not blow at certain times of the day. The railroads have been in my comunity over 100 years and the crossings in questions have been around at least 50+ years.

[Overmod]

Some places have noise ordinances about horns at night. I have also noticed that, in some communities at some times, the engine crews will use very short and quiet 'toots' on the horn, which might be by mutual agreement with the municipalities involved.

As far as I know, a municipality can enact a noise ordinance that covers horn blowing which would cover railroads (even though Federally, not state, regulated) -- I believe Chicago already has something like that (it was very recently mentioned in a thread on this forum). However -- any such ordinance would have to recognize that liability for grade-crossing accidents would then rest with the municipality in question, and perhaps with the drafters of the ordinance joint and singularly if they haven't wangled full statutory immunity.

I would be interested to see the exact politics that supersedes rulebook-mandated operating rules such as crossing whistle signals.

The 'flip side' of this involves municipalities that have crossings that are 'riskier' than usual, or at which there have been accidents costly to railroads. This may lead to very loud or raucous horns (cf. some KCS engines in south Shreveport, Lousiana, which are quite distinctive at a distance of over two miles) which are used to blow continuous, long repetitions of the crossing signal while passing through some such areas.

[Anonymous]

What is the name of this town?

[UPTRAIN]

I think they should blow them, because people are never going to see just the signals. There needs to be an audiable part of the crossing.

[oskar]

I think they should blow them unless they have a hotel near by like cumberland,MD



kevin

[Anonymous]

It's not possible to blow them too much or too often.

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Theblockhouse
Right now in my town there is a big debate about trains blowing at crossings.

Placentia, CA, on the BNSF (ATSF) mainline is also fighting this battle. There is a large banner in the median of Kraemer Blvd near the rail crossing, stating the city's intention to silence the horns. In years past there was a "No Whistling Ordinance" in place in Placentia, but this was later eliminated in the interest of safety (not by choice in Placentia).

[Rick Gates]

The timetables contain special intructions on locations where local ordinances are ineffect regarding the whisle signals at certain crossings at certain times. They are effective and the Railroad must apply the special instruction if a new ordinance is passed.

[DSchmitt]

A whie back I looked up info on some grade crossing on the FRA web site. One of the the things they note in their statistics is whether or not there is a noise ordinance.

[Anonymous]

This has been a hot topic in the Chicago suburbs ever since that school bus accident on the U.P.and the Amtrak/truck wreck a few years ago(Chicago required the railroads to be elevated years ago). I believe either the state passed a law or the FRA issued a rule requiring trains to blow 24/7 but a number of suburbs objected. If I remember right, a compromise was reached where towns could prohibit blowing at night, but had to install fully protected crossings(4-way gates or roadway barriers) by a certain year. Of course cost and who pays are issues.

[Anonymous]

Many of these local statutes contain an exemption that the engineer may sound the horn when he feels it is necessary in the interests of safety. Also, in some cases operating personnel are unofficially told to sound the horn when they feel it is needed and the company will pay the fine.

Personally, I don't feel that local communities should be able to make laws affecting railroads any more than they can make laws regarding freeways. It would be even better if federal law was preemptive.

[tregurtha]

As I understand it, Durand, Michigan has such an ordinance that prohibits train crews from blowing horns in the city limit. At the Durand Union Station where railfans often gather, occassionally, a crew will blow a brief whistle as they pass by but other than that the trains pass silently. If I were an engineer, I don't think I'd like an ordinance like that; people are simply too careless around tracks. Two mains intersect in Durand and depending on traffic, trains can pass through at high speeds. Speeds of oncoming trains can be deceiving and I think a horn gives a better indication of the speed.

Ross R.

[mudchicken]

Federal Law pre-empts any local ordinance. Railroads do not have to heed ANY local ordinance. There is the federal "NO Train Horn Rule" just coming into play (see previous posts and the FRA Website http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/1318) Having worked for the railroad that passes thru Placentia (and Santa Ana, Orange, Pasadena, Fullerton and a few other places where political egoes run unchecked, the railroad voluntarilly complied with local ordinance until either the FRA enforced the whistle rule and/ or the locals started proving Darwin correct)....If you are going to get a whistle ban in any place, hope the local coffers are full of ca$h and that the town is willing to pay the insurance for the stupidity of the local bottom feeder population!

[banghead][banghead][banghead]

[Anonymous]

It seems to me that things are not as they appear.

How can an engineer violate an FRA rule without consequences? Why didn't the FRA tell the various towns, "Sorry, but your law is invalid and will not be recognized." And a few other things. Seems to me that quite a few people have put their butt on the line for some reason in order to comply with local laws that were supposedly superceded by federal laws and regulations.

[DPD1]

I think it's interesting that whistle blowing has become such and issue in so many areas fairly recently. Seems like nobody cared before a few years ago. I grew up next to the EJ&E outside Chicago, and they definitely broke the record when it came to whistle blowing. The main train that came by our house went by between about 10PM and Midnight, and then came back after doing it's work up North between about 3AM and 6AM. There was a rural road with no gates a short distance from our house, and they would lay on that whistle big time. Some guys would actually hit the whistle at the whistle marker, and just hold it down the full distance, all the way to the road. There were hundreds of homes in the area, and I honestly don't recall anybody ever even mentioning it. It was one of those things you just put up with. Maybe people now days have gotten a little soft and need bigger things to worry about.

Dave
Los Angeles, CA
-Rail Radio Online-Home of the "TrainTenna" RR Monitoring Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/railradioonline

[Anonymous]

I understand the need for trains to blow for the crossings. However, some engineers seem to take special delight in laying on the horn. I live in Ft. Scott KS on the BNSF sub of that name. We have a crossing at Wall St, one block later at 1st St, then 3rd St, 6th St and 12th ST. I have heard horns in the middle of the night that were way over done. Some guys start blowing at Wall ST and continue blowing until they've cleared 6th. I'm a big "foamer" but I think that this excessive

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vdemm

I understand the need for trains to blow for the crossings. However, some engineers seem to take special delight in laying on the horn. I live in Ft. Scott KS on the BNSF sub of that name. We have a crossing at Wall St, one block later at 1st St, then 3rd St, 6th St and 12th ST. I have heard horns in the middle of the night that were way over done. Some guys start blowing at Wall ST and continue blowing until they've cleared 6th. I'm a big "foamer" but I think that this excessive

According to the rules as (I think) I understand them, the whistle must be sounded for every crossing, and the last long blast must be held until the engine has occupied the crossing. If conditions are such that the full signal cannot be given then one long blast, again held until the engine has occupied the crossing, is sufficient. This undoubtedly explains what you consider "excessive" whistle use.

[jchnhtfd]

Anyone ever notice that whistle blowing is opposed and regarded as a nuisance and excessive unitl some local bigwig or child gets hit and hurt or worse? And then the first reaction is that the poor victim didn't notice the train coming (hear the whistle) and that horrible big railroad should Do Something? Funny that way...[banghead]

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vdemm

I understand the need for trains to blow for the crossings. However, some engineers seem to take special delight in laying on the horn. I live in Ft. Scott KS on the BNSF sub of that name. We have a crossing at Wall St, one block later at 1st St, then 3rd St, 6th St and 12th ST. I have heard horns in the middle of the night that were way over done. Some guys start blowing at Wall ST and continue blowing until they've cleared 6th. I'm a big "foamer" but I think that this excessive

When I lived in Milford, MI, there were 4 crossings fairly close, such that trains at track speed basically never got off the horn. And most of them come through at track speed. One of the crossings is now closed, so there is that much "relief" for any who are bothered by the sound. It is fortunate that there are not a lot of houses immediately adjacent to the tracks through most of the village. I think most of the traffic now moves through the village at night. I never saw a train come through during my most recent visits.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

BN's Chicago-Aurora main has been subject to lots of horn ordinances, which isn't too surprising since most of the area is pretty well built-up and most of the suburban stations are in the middle of a local business district. While I'm no fan of horn ordinances, BN seemed to make an effort to lessen the trespassing problem in a variety of ways which helped to offset the lack of horn sounding. I've also noticed that express suburban trains operating on the center track would sound their horns when overtaking a local on the outside track.

[kevgos]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

Anyone ever notice that whistle blowing is opposed and regarded as a nuisance and excessive unitl some local bigwig or child gets hit and hurt or worse? And then the first reaction is that the poor victim didn't notice the train coming (hear the whistle) and that horrible big railroad should Do Something? Funny that way...[banghead]

My other "favorite" is the new family in town who moves to the house by the tracks "because it's cheaper" (or any other reason) and then they complain about the whistle.
In most every case I know of, the railroad was there first (it's because of the railroad that your community likely even exists or was created in the first place) and here this community, which the railroad built, is telling the railroad how to act. Ironic, isn't it? How many people do you know that get to start on a new job and tell their boss how to run the company? Looking at what a lot of those fines cost, I tend to think it's just another income source for the community, as opposed to a "serious" problem that necessitates a new ordinance.
I'm me, and I approve this message.

[tregurtha]

I agree, that in most cases the railroad came first. Just like people moving next to an airport and complaining. It's probably just a matter of time in one of these towns with noise ordinances that a teenager with the radio blasting will blow around a signal and get killed. Before there's even time for the funeral the family will go running to the railroad with lawyers hanging out of their pockets looking for every dime they can get. I don't like these ordinances. It's just an unnecessary accident and lawsuit waiting to happen.

Ross R.

[johncolley]

Big brouhaha in Seattle over blowing. The major street where the crossing is adjacent to the big new multimillion dollar baseball stadium and the blowing sometimes interrupts the game. Boo hoo grow up, eh? It's a federal safety issue!

[trcarson]

I have a Chessie timetable which has a lot of crossings where horns are not used. I don't have it handy but there were numerous times and spots were horns could not be used.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: For a rationale as widely cited as "The railroad was here first, so the people who live next to the track can lump it," it would be helpful if there were statistics that enumerated which communities in the U.S. had railroads before there was a community, and which were communities before a railroad arrived.

I know that practically every town near where I live (Inman, Campobello, Landrum, Tryon, Saluda, Flat Rock) would not be here had it not been for the railroad.

[fuzzybroken]

In nearby Wauwatosa, WI, the CP has "no-whistle" posts near the crossings. These are signified by a "W" with a red circle-slash. I've had several CP trains sneak up on me while I was in Tosa because of this! In addition, parallel State Street's traffic signals change when a train approaches. Amazingly, I don't think I've ever heard of a train-car incident in this community!

[2c],
-Mark
http://www.geocities.com/fuzzybroken

[pat390]

If you move by the tracks expect noise, but 5 people have been killed by trains in my town over the last few years, part of the reason being minimal blowing

[Anonymous]

Re: Who got there first.
When the C&A built north from Alton, Illinois, Springfield already existed and had an east-west railroad, later to be the Wabash which eventually ended up in NS camp. Bloomington and Joliet also existed but north of Joliet were very few communities until the railroad was available. Bloomington had no railroad but the Illinois Central did have tracks to Normal (northeast of the city). Joliet had an east/west one which later became the Rock Island.
Farmers could travel about 4 miles and back in one day and so you will find grain silos located about 8 miles apart from each other along this route. Some of the towns that resulted were named after 'officials' of the line like Godfrey, Dwight, and Blackstone.
Art Schlosser

[mvlandsw]

I think the "Who was there first ?" question applies more to the person who moves in knowing that the railroad runs through the back yard than it does to the entire community. In most cases the railroad - community choices were made long before any of the current residents were born.

[Anonymous]

I agree that some people may find trains blowing their horns or whistles at grade crossings annoying at night. I live about a mile off the former L&N Dixie Line (CSX) and often hear the trains, but enjoy it. I previously lived in Louisville, KY, and noticed that the horns sounded by engineers at the grade crossings there seem to be of lower volume ( I believe there is a city ordanace requiring it ). The ultimate solution seems to be what my hometown of Livermore CA did some years ago. They relocated the tracks of the SP/WP ( now UP) and eliminated many grade crossings ( underpasses were installed, some roads were dead ended at the tracks). It was a major project and I don't recall how it was financed ( city, railroad or both).