Blowing at Crossings

[Anonymous]

As a retired railroad engineman, I can only give you how I feel about this whistle blowing controversy. I say, blow regularly and certainly blow like crazy if you suspect that an incident is imminent. In my career, I have been involved in 4 incidents that claimed a total of 7 lives and I can tell you that this is NOT a pleasant experience to go through. Yes, I had the locomotive bell going, the steam whistle or diesel horn going (as the case might be) and I was even shouting at the top of my lungs, and even the crossing gates and bells were active, but to no avail, we still hit the car(s). I say, give the people all the
warning you can.
Sometimes the horn does make a difference and does save someone's life. I can remember one fellow that cut his dump trucks wheels sharply to the right and went into the ditch when I was blowing for a crossing. Needless to say I dumped the air when I thought we were going to hiy, but all was well and the fellow told me - "Thank God you were on your horn - it saved my life"!!!
Norman

[Anonymous]

I live along the main line of the CSX in northern Georgia. On the double track section through my town, the engineer blows at every crossing, night or day, even if another train is blocking the crossing on the siding. I can understand why after seeing two bozo's crawling under a stopped train to cross the tracks.

[tree68]

Milford, MI, was there before the railroad. Just 3 miles north, what is now Highland started out as Highland Station - the original Highland was a couple miles west.

I agree that the "who was there first" issue is probably moot when it comes to highway crossings.

[BR60103]

Years ago I read that the original signal for a crossing was two long, two short. The railway companies were constantly disciplining engineers for dragging out the final short blast, until someone finally asked the engineers why they were doing it.
If your community is thinking of banning whistle, try to get some of the politicians to have a cab ride through town; it's especially effective at night.
In Brampton, CNR has agreed not to whistle; most of their crossings have been replaced by overpasses. The ex-CPR line has not agreed; they have about a dozen level crossings and barely time to whistle between them.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dsngrr1

Having lived in La Grange, IL for almost thirty years and commuting to Chicago every day, I think I can speak with authority about "horn Blowing". I have personally witnessed THREE killings by the CB&Q crews. These people could have likely been saved by the judicious use of the horn! The killings all occured while one of the two trains was stopped in a station or approaching it . The crew on the passing train could have very likely saved their victim. With push-pull operation and/or straight diesel operation it is very difficult to hear an approaching train until its right on you.
The Chicago suburbs don;t realize, neither apparently the FRA, it is not motor vehicle/traim accidents that are the biggest killers. It is PEDESTRIANS that are mostly killed. The BNSF kills almost one a month. The total killings in the Chicago area are a complete unacceptable level.
Train crews should be ordered to sound their horns whenever passing a stopped train or one that is approaching a station.
Our RTA managers obviously don't ride commuter trains. They would like a train to slow down to an unacceptable speed when passing a stopped train. Can you imagine what this would do to schedules? The RTA is a political office and does not have the pedestrians' know-how around a train station or crossing.
FRA , PLEASE don't listen to these suburbs; give them reasonable limitations and not total control. Remember, it's people, not vehicles, we need to protect. I would hate to see another pedestrian ground up under an RTA commuter train. Horns are a fact of life around a railroad and suburbs need to live with it. Amen

I don't know about LaGrange but in Downers Grove, Lisle, and Naperville they DO blow and have for as long as I can remember. These accidents typically involve commuters walking around the front or rear of the stopped train past lowered crossing gates with the bells ringing. Maybe they're late, maybe the express is late, maybe they've done it for years abd gotten away with it, then one day they get nailed. In Lisle which has no grade crossings, I've also seen commuters cross the ROW and hop the fencing between the tracks rather than get delayed 1 or 2 minutes going through 1 of the 3 pedestrian tunnels. It has also been reported that a number of pedestrian accidents are actually suicides.

I can't blame the crews at all, instead I feel really sorry for them when one of these accidents happens. There's only so much that can be done to save people from being stupid. This is also a different issue from blowing at every crossing at 2 a.m., since these accidents happen during the morning and evening rush hours. I'm also unaware of any grade crossing on this line that doesn't have crossing gates.

[CSXrules4eva]

I think any engineer going over a grade Xing should blow their horn. Two longs one short another long, standerd proceedure. This is done to protect motorists and pedestrians. Hey if it's 1am and some idiot doen't see the train or trys to beat the train over the grade Xing then, they're going to say I to the railraod I expect damages because the engineer didn't warn me or others of an oncomming train. Now. . .. unlike others I would love to hear the sound of a train 24/7 at my house.

[Anonymous]

Having lived in La Grange, IL for almost thirty years and commuting to Chicago every day, I think I can speak with authority about "horn Blowing". I have personally witnessed THREE killings by the CB&Q crews. These people could have likely been saved by the judicious use of the horn! The killings all occured while one of the two trains was stopped in a station or approaching it . The crew on the passing train could have very likely saved their victim. With push-pull operation and/or straight diesel operation it is very difficult to hear an approaching train until its right on you.
The Chicago suburbs don;t realize, neither apparently the FRA, it is not motor vehicle/traim accidents that are the biggest killers. It is PEDESTRIANS that are mostly killed. The BNSF kills almost one a month. The total killings in the Chicago area are a complete unacceptable level.
Train crews should be ordered to sound their horns whenever passing a stopped train or one that is approaching a station.
Our RTA managers obviously don't ride commuter trains. They would like a train to slow down to an unacceptable speed when passing a stopped train. Can you imagine what this would do to schedules? The RTA is a political office and does not have the pedestrians' know-how around a train station or crossing.
FRA , PLEASE don't listen to these suburbs; give them reasonable limitations and not total control. Remember, it's people, not vehicles, we need to protect. I would hate to see another pedestrian ground up under an RTA commuter train. Horns are a fact of life around a railroad and suburbs need to live with it. Amen

[Anonymous]

The whole issue about horn blowing at crossings has grown rather idiotic. Common sense seems to have flown the coop. Having worked as a brakeman on the old MP Kingsville Division and rode the head end countless times, I never knew one single engineer who blew his horn to wake the local populace. Every one I knew blew it for one reason: to save lives including those in the cab. If you ever rode in the cab of an SD40 running 45 mph and saw a tanker truck pull onto the tracks a half mile ahead and come to a complete stop with the trailer straddling the tracks, you would know once and for all why an engineer blows his horn at grade crossings. The people complaining about the train horns are the same idiots who buy a house near the airport and complain about the planes flying low overhead. If you don't like the noise, MOVE THE HECK AWAY FROM THE TRACKS.

[jchnhtfd]

Perhaps it is worth remembering that the bottom line in all this is safety -- safety for the train crews, safety for the drivers, safety for the general public. If a grade crossing exists it doesn't really matter whether the railroad or the community got there first (here in New England, it gets really complicated!) the fact of the matter is that the folks who use the crossing have to be protected, whether they are in a car, horse and buggy, walking, or running the train (train crews have been traumatized psychologically to the point that they can't work any more by crossing accidents, never mind injured or killed). In my humble opinion, if there is not a positive way to prevent the people using the road from attempting to occupy the track when a train is coming, the requirement for the engineer to whistle is not just a railroad Rule, but an ethical requirement.

If the community, in its collective wisdom, decides that they don't want to be 'annoyed' by the train whistles, that's dandy -- it's their decision, but then 'they' (the community) need to take the responsibility (that is, pony up the cash) to ensure that safety is not compromised. Underpasses/overpasses are the best solution, along with a fenced right of way; quad gates are pretty good, and positive median dividers for a considerable distance either side of the crossing with single gates aren't too bad, although neither prevents pedestrians from becoming statistics.

Just remember that safety is Rule Number 1.

[Mookie]

Do the cities that don't want the noise of a train whistle also ban the noise I hear a lot every day at my house - the sound of a stereo system bass that is jacked all the way up to the "rattle the window panes" setting?

[Anonymous]

I agree that some people may find trains blowing their horns or whistles at grade crossings annoying at night. I live about a mile off the former L&N Dixie Line (CSX) and often hear the trains, but enjoy it. I previously lived in Louisville, KY, and noticed that the horns sounded by engineers at the grade crossings there seem to be of lower volume ( I believe there is a city ordanace requiring it ). The ultimate solution seems to be what my hometown of Livermore CA did some years ago. They relocated the tracks of the SP/WP ( now UP) and eliminated many grade crossings ( underpasses were installed, some roads were dead ended at the tracks). It was a major project and I don't recall how it was financed ( city, railroad or both).

[mvlandsw]

I think the "Who was there first ?" question applies more to the person who moves in knowing that the railroad runs through the back yard than it does to the entire community. In most cases the railroad - community choices were made long before any of the current residents were born.

[Anonymous]

Re: Who got there first.
When the C&A built north from Alton, Illinois, Springfield already existed and had an east-west railroad, later to be the Wabash which eventually ended up in NS camp. Bloomington and Joliet also existed but north of Joliet were very few communities until the railroad was available. Bloomington had no railroad but the Illinois Central did have tracks to Normal (northeast of the city). Joliet had an east/west one which later became the Rock Island.
Farmers could travel about 4 miles and back in one day and so you will find grain silos located about 8 miles apart from each other along this route. Some of the towns that resulted were named after 'officials' of the line like Godfrey, Dwight, and Blackstone.
Art Schlosser

[pat390]

If you move by the tracks expect noise, but 5 people have been killed by trains in my town over the last few years, part of the reason being minimal blowing

[fuzzybroken]

In nearby Wauwatosa, WI, the CP has "no-whistle" posts near the crossings. These are signified by a "W" with a red circle-slash. I've had several CP trains sneak up on me while I was in Tosa because of this! In addition, parallel State Street's traffic signals change when a train approaches. Amazingly, I don't think I've ever heard of a train-car incident in this community!

[2c],
-Mark
http://www.geocities.com/fuzzybroken

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: For a rationale as widely cited as "The railroad was here first, so the people who live next to the track can lump it," it would be helpful if there were statistics that enumerated which communities in the U.S. had railroads before there was a community, and which were communities before a railroad arrived.

I know that practically every town near where I live (Inman, Campobello, Landrum, Tryon, Saluda, Flat Rock) would not be here had it not been for the railroad.

[trcarson]

I have a Chessie timetable which has a lot of crossings where horns are not used. I don't have it handy but there were numerous times and spots were horns could not be used.

[johncolley]

Big brouhaha in Seattle over blowing. The major street where the crossing is adjacent to the big new multimillion dollar baseball stadium and the blowing sometimes interrupts the game. Boo hoo grow up, eh? It's a federal safety issue!

[tregurtha]

I agree, that in most cases the railroad came first. Just like people moving next to an airport and complaining. It's probably just a matter of time in one of these towns with noise ordinances that a teenager with the radio blasting will blow around a signal and get killed. Before there's even time for the funeral the family will go running to the railroad with lawyers hanging out of their pockets looking for every dime they can get. I don't like these ordinances. It's just an unnecessary accident and lawsuit waiting to happen.

Ross R.

[kevgos]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

Anyone ever notice that whistle blowing is opposed and regarded as a nuisance and excessive unitl some local bigwig or child gets hit and hurt or worse? And then the first reaction is that the poor victim didn't notice the train coming (hear the whistle) and that horrible big railroad should Do Something? Funny that way...[banghead]

My other "favorite" is the new family in town who moves to the house by the tracks "because it's cheaper" (or any other reason) and then they complain about the whistle.
In most every case I know of, the railroad was there first (it's because of the railroad that your community likely even exists or was created in the first place) and here this community, which the railroad built, is telling the railroad how to act. Ironic, isn't it? How many people do you know that get to start on a new job and tell their boss how to run the company? Looking at what a lot of those fines cost, I tend to think it's just another income source for the community, as opposed to a "serious" problem that necessitates a new ordinance.
I'm me, and I approve this message.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

BN's Chicago-Aurora main has been subject to lots of horn ordinances, which isn't too surprising since most of the area is pretty well built-up and most of the suburban stations are in the middle of a local business district. While I'm no fan of horn ordinances, BN seemed to make an effort to lessen the trespassing problem in a variety of ways which helped to offset the lack of horn sounding. I've also noticed that express suburban trains operating on the center track would sound their horns when overtaking a local on the outside track.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vdemm

I understand the need for trains to blow for the crossings. However, some engineers seem to take special delight in laying on the horn. I live in Ft. Scott KS on the BNSF sub of that name. We have a crossing at Wall St, one block later at 1st St, then 3rd St, 6th St and 12th ST. I have heard horns in the middle of the night that were way over done. Some guys start blowing at Wall ST and continue blowing until they've cleared 6th. I'm a big "foamer" but I think that this excessive

When I lived in Milford, MI, there were 4 crossings fairly close, such that trains at track speed basically never got off the horn. And most of them come through at track speed. One of the crossings is now closed, so there is that much "relief" for any who are bothered by the sound. It is fortunate that there are not a lot of houses immediately adjacent to the tracks through most of the village. I think most of the traffic now moves through the village at night. I never saw a train come through during my most recent visits.

[jchnhtfd]

Anyone ever notice that whistle blowing is opposed and regarded as a nuisance and excessive unitl some local bigwig or child gets hit and hurt or worse? And then the first reaction is that the poor victim didn't notice the train coming (hear the whistle) and that horrible big railroad should Do Something? Funny that way...[banghead]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vdemm

I understand the need for trains to blow for the crossings. However, some engineers seem to take special delight in laying on the horn. I live in Ft. Scott KS on the BNSF sub of that name. We have a crossing at Wall St, one block later at 1st St, then 3rd St, 6th St and 12th ST. I have heard horns in the middle of the night that were way over done. Some guys start blowing at Wall ST and continue blowing until they've cleared 6th. I'm a big "foamer" but I think that this excessive

According to the rules as (I think) I understand them, the whistle must be sounded for every crossing, and the last long blast must be held until the engine has occupied the crossing. If conditions are such that the full signal cannot be given then one long blast, again held until the engine has occupied the crossing, is sufficient. This undoubtedly explains what you consider "excessive" whistle use.

[Anonymous]

I understand the need for trains to blow for the crossings. However, some engineers seem to take special delight in laying on the horn. I live in Ft. Scott KS on the BNSF sub of that name. We have a crossing at Wall St, one block later at 1st St, then 3rd St, 6th St and 12th ST. I have heard horns in the middle of the night that were way over done. Some guys start blowing at Wall ST and continue blowing until they've cleared 6th. I'm a big "foamer" but I think that this excessive

[DPD1]

I think it's interesting that whistle blowing has become such and issue in so many areas fairly recently. Seems like nobody cared before a few years ago. I grew up next to the EJ&E outside Chicago, and they definitely broke the record when it came to whistle blowing. The main train that came by our house went by between about 10PM and Midnight, and then came back after doing it's work up North between about 3AM and 6AM. There was a rural road with no gates a short distance from our house, and they would lay on that whistle big time. Some guys would actually hit the whistle at the whistle marker, and just hold it down the full distance, all the way to the road. There were hundreds of homes in the area, and I honestly don't recall anybody ever even mentioning it. It was one of those things you just put up with. Maybe people now days have gotten a little soft and need bigger things to worry about.

Dave
Los Angeles, CA
-Rail Radio Online-Home of the "TrainTenna" RR Monitoring Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/railradioonline

[Anonymous]

It seems to me that things are not as they appear.

How can an engineer violate an FRA rule without consequences? Why didn't the FRA tell the various towns, "Sorry, but your law is invalid and will not be recognized." And a few other things. Seems to me that quite a few people have put their butt on the line for some reason in order to comply with local laws that were supposedly superceded by federal laws and regulations.

[mudchicken]

Federal Law pre-empts any local ordinance. Railroads do not have to heed ANY local ordinance. There is the federal "NO Train Horn Rule" just coming into play (see previous posts and the FRA Website http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/1318) Having worked for the railroad that passes thru Placentia (and Santa Ana, Orange, Pasadena, Fullerton and a few other places where political egoes run unchecked, the railroad voluntarilly complied with local ordinance until either the FRA enforced the whistle rule and/ or the locals started proving Darwin correct)....If you are going to get a whistle ban in any place, hope the local coffers are full of ca$h and that the town is willing to pay the insurance for the stupidity of the local bottom feeder population!

[banghead][banghead][banghead]

[tregurtha]

As I understand it, Durand, Michigan has such an ordinance that prohibits train crews from blowing horns in the city limit. At the Durand Union Station where railfans often gather, occassionally, a crew will blow a brief whistle as they pass by but other than that the trains pass silently. If I were an engineer, I don't think I'd like an ordinance like that; people are simply too careless around tracks. Two mains intersect in Durand and depending on traffic, trains can pass through at high speeds. Speeds of oncoming trains can be deceiving and I think a horn gives a better indication of the speed.

Ross R.