My favorite switch move: Cut head pin , engines back off to the house, tie on hand brakes, run to the parking lot.
Where in the train do the empties get blocked?
I'll just slap them on the head end for now.
1. Cut off light, grab everything on the spur.
2. Pull down, cutting car 3 on the spur.
3. Grab car 2 from main, standing cut. This avoids airing up the whole train when unnecessary. Also it is a lot faster than moving ahead one car for cut.
4. Grab car 3 from spur. If grades and rules allow, roll it out.
5. Grab car 4 from main, standing cut.
6. Shove to spot.
7. If empties go somewhere else in train, cut off on spur, and feather in as needed. Otherwise, tie on, airtest, hiball.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Another day, another puzzle.
Same industry as before:
Here is the new situation:
There's 2 empty (MT) cars below the pit, and another empty on the pit. 3 loads behind the pit. You have 2 new loads head out on your train, plus a bunch of loads for other industries behind them. How best to switch this customer in the fewest number of moves? You have full use of the main for the night. The lead for the industry is actually on a pretty good grade, so take that in account, i.e. it's probably not the best idea (or even possible) to try to shove the WHOLE train up there.
Bit easier than the other one I posted.
PS. I actually enjoy switching this industry. Gives me a little bit of a challenge.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Gotcha. Your rendition was pretty close, for the record.
Dan
If you can't leave cars on the main (even for short moves), then you'd do what I did above, but just drag the extra cars with you. Makes it a pain in the butt, but still do-able.
zugmann Lots of room to play there. How many cars do tracks 1-4 hold? Which ends are the handbrakes on? How many cars can you fit between Industry A and B switches?
Lots of room to play there. How many cars do tracks 1-4 hold? Which ends are the handbrakes on? How many cars can you fit between Industry A and B switches?
On instances when only A or B gets switched they can usually fly back home and tie up with about 15 minutes to spare.
Semper Vaporo When I tried to view the image at full size, I got nothing but the home page of Photobucket. Mayhaps it is not flagged for PUBLIC viewing? Which of the 3 "Y" cars is to go into the "Y" spot? Leaving it up to the crew might lead to a single car sitting on the siding until the 40 year rule causes it to be scrapped. Which 3 are the "oldest" of the 7 "Z'" cars? How long can you tie up the CTC Main storing cars temporarily on it? Which cars go to industry "C"... just any at all at my whim? Given the total lack of detail given in some of the answers to the previous puzzle, I will switch this job this way... 1) Arrange the cars in the order I need and put them in the proper place. There! One step! What do I win? :-)
When I tried to view the image at full size, I got nothing but the home page of Photobucket. Mayhaps it is not flagged for PUBLIC viewing?
Which of the 3 "Y" cars is to go into the "Y" spot? Leaving it up to the crew might lead to a single car sitting on the siding until the 40 year rule causes it to be scrapped.
Which 3 are the "oldest" of the 7 "Z'" cars?
How long can you tie up the CTC Main storing cars temporarily on it?
Which cars go to industry "C"... just any at all at my whim?
Given the total lack of detail given in some of the answers to the previous puzzle, I will switch this job this way...
1) Arrange the cars in the order I need and put them in the proper place. There! One step! What do I win? :-)
What the hell, I'll take a stab at her.
Better open the image to follow along.
1. Cut away light.
2. Go to Industry A.
3. pull it all.
4. Leave one empty + "2" on the main.
5. Slam "4" back on the siding.
6. put the empty that you are holding onto against the other one on the main. No sense holding onto it.
7. Run lite on the main to the west (left) end.
8. couple to the rear of the train you brought.
9. drag it all out and go into the west end of the yard.
10. go into track 1
11. grab car "3".
12. Set car "1" and "3" to the ladder.
13. Toss your inbound "x,z, y" to track 1. They will stay there.
14. couple to "1 and 3", reach into track 4 and grab the old "y" car.
15. double all that to track 3.
16. shift out the x car towards 2, and put one z car to 4, and one back to 3. That will leave you with 3 old z cars together for that industry later.
17. Grab the "x" you sidetracked and back to the main. put the "y" and "x" to the main.
18. go into the siding, holding on to 1 and 3.
19 slam 3 into industry a.
20. reach out, grab 2, and put 1 and 2 in industry a.
21. done with spotting A.
22. reverse and grab empties out of industry B.
23. back to the main, and shove back to pick up the y and x cars you put there earlier.
24. run into the siding from the east end, back up and spot the two loads into B.
25. Done with B.
26. Now you are holding to 2 empties west of you and have 2 empties on the main east of the siding.
27. leave the 2 empties from B on the siding.
28. run light to the main and pick up the 2 empties that you left there from A.
29. Reverse into the east end of the yard for track 4.
30. Reverse again, and pull the Zs out the east end (saves you from throwing the switches on the west end).
31. Go west on the main, with the Zs on the west end, engine in the middle, and empties on the east end. put your 2 empties on the siding from the west end, against the 2 you pulled from industry B. That way the 4 empties are together for a simple pickup later.
32. Back to the main. You now have 3 Z cars and the engines.
33. Go shift Z.
34. On the way back, scoop up the 4 empties you left on the siding.
35. When you grab the cars on the siding, tie the train down and wait for the re-crew.
---
Not the prettiest... but it will get the cars to the right spots.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
zugmann CNW 6000: Neat thread...got another trick for us to switch? Otherwise I may (if you're ok with it) present one I've seen locally here. All yours bud...
CNW 6000: Neat thread...got another trick for us to switch? Otherwise I may (if you're ok with it) present one I've seen locally here.
Neat thread...got another trick for us to switch? Otherwise I may (if you're ok with it) present one I've seen locally here.
All yours bud...
This situation is one where there are two industries within close proximity to each other, but the points face opposite directions. Both industries don't always get served on the same day...but sometimes they do. Today is one of those days. There is a small yard (for intermediate storage basically - the older cars are on Track 4, newest on Track 1) near the two industries but it sits on the other side of a CTC mainline. The local that works here must also set themselves up to be able to switch a third industry further down (photo right) the line...but not near the yard. After that industry is served they head back home (photo left) when they're done. This is a job that usually takes its full 12. The tracks leading to the third industry don't have room for any extra cars (from the first two industries) so they'll have to be left in the yard. The siding isn't used by any 'through' freights and there are grade crossings on either end of the yard that aren't supposed to be blocked for very long. One handbrake is required per track on the right (photo) end of each siding and at each spot for the industries.
Setup:Your train has just arrived from photo left. As stated both jobs are worked today...plus the third off map. You must:-Industry A: Pull Empty cars, place the remaining cars on their correct spots based on spot number, place two cars at the empty spots and get Empty cars ready to go back with you at the end of the night.-Industry B: Pull Empty cars, place new cars on spot from yard, cycling new/old (look at note). Empty cars go back with you at the end of the night after the third industry.-Industry C (off map): They take three cars in and send three cars out. Take the three "oldest" Z cars with you and you're coming back with three empties.
At the end of serving all three places you should have all empties going back with you.
Diagram below.
Yes, this is real. Good luck.
zugmann [snipped] . . . So the moves I made were to minimize the number of handbrakes I would have to apply and release.
And so there's another big reason to find the way to do it with the least number of moves. Not only does each move take its own time, but each move also involves and includes other time-consuming ancillary operations - such as stopping a carlength before the coupling, making sure the knuckle is open, making the coupling, testing the coupling to make sure the pin dropped, etc., plus the release of the handbrakes; or, bunching the slack, applying the handbrakes, pulling the pin, and then pulling away. If the air has to be used, then add "3-step protection" for the conductor to go into the "red zone' and lace together the air hoses and turn the anglecocks to charge the train line, and likely also inspect the brakes to make sure they're applying and releasing, before moving that cut of cars . . .
- Paul North.
CNW 6000 Neat thread...got another trick for us to switch? Otherwise I may (if you're ok with it) present one I've seen locally here.
oltmannd The ground man will figure out the best way. It's the one where he has the least walking, riding, hand brake tying down and switch throwing to do.
The ground man will figure out the best way. It's the one where he has the least walking, riding, hand brake tying down and switch throwing to do.
Too true!
Zugs: I thought you and Scotty had that invention you've been working on in your basement perfected by now.....(the "transporter" I think you called it)
Now i'm trying to figure out what industry you are talking about...LOL
zugmann I had a few more variables to deal with that I left off of the problem. Namely - an appreciable grade on the lead, and other cars behind my new loads. So the moves I made were to minimize the number of handbrakes I would have to apply and release.
I had a few more variables to deal with that I left off of the problem. Namely - an appreciable grade on the lead, and other cars behind my new loads. So the moves I made were to minimize the number of handbrakes I would have to apply and release.
I had gathered there was a grade since you mentioned the cars were moved from load area to the pit but did not mention a company switcher. And since the loads were behind the pit, I assume the grade from the main to end leadn and siding was up.
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Somebody once observed (a long time ago) that switching operations proceed at about the same pace as the ground man walks . . . . . . and that the sequence of moves that has significantly less walking - though maybe more total 'moves' - is likely to be the quickest.
Paul_D_North_Jr zugmann: For the record, one of the posters on here has switched this customer the same way I did. But I won't say which poster... Me - I'd have probably just gone ahead and done it by the 'brute force' method - simply switch 5 in, then switch 4 in, and so on. No standing around trying to chess-game puzzle out which is the fastest way to do it, meanwhile the clock is running, and some supervisor or the industry is wondering why the switch engine isn't moving and the couplers aren't being banged together. Plus, then at least one car gets placed in its final 'spot' immediately, then another - the next, and so on, instead of waiting until the last shove when they all come together and fall into place in one grand finale. Which leads to a couple of questions for you puzzle geniuses: Is there a fundamental underlying principle that you use to organize this operation ? Or is it just random 'trial-and-error' of each possible combination of cars and moves until one seems to be better than the others, and you stop the analysis there and use that one ? If so, then how do you know there isn't yet another even better (less moves) sequence of moves that you haven't considered yet ? Mathematics - numerical methods - is what it is, not probability and statistics (gambling). - Paul North.
zugmann: For the record, one of the posters on here has switched this customer the same way I did. But I won't say which poster...
Me - I'd have probably just gone ahead and done it by the 'brute force' method - simply switch 5 in, then switch 4 in, and so on. No standing around trying to chess-game puzzle out which is the fastest way to do it, meanwhile the clock is running, and some supervisor or the industry is wondering why the switch engine isn't moving and the couplers aren't being banged together. Plus, then at least one car gets placed in its final 'spot' immediately, then another - the next, and so on, instead of waiting until the last shove when they all come together and fall into place in one grand finale.
Which leads to a couple of questions for you puzzle geniuses: Is there a fundamental underlying principle that you use to organize this operation ? Or is it just random 'trial-and-error' of each possible combination of cars and moves until one seems to be better than the others, and you stop the analysis there and use that one ? If so, then how do you know there isn't yet another even better (less moves) sequence of moves that you haven't considered yet ?
Mathematics - numerical methods - is what it is, not probability and statistics (gambling).
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Paul, the answers to your questions are: yes and no, somtimes, somehow and maybe; for all of them. I am a sports fan...mostly hockey and football..but do not follow plays and logistics. Yet, here is a good case for knowing such. I dunno. I remember listening to and watching the local drill's crew talking about, planning, and executing moves in see sawing, pushing, pulling, doubling out and over, etc. But that was over 50 years ago and I was a kid thrilled to be in the cab or caboose or just standing next to the trainman on the ground giving signals. Today, it might be a change of brain brought about by time that allows me to figure out what to do. I gave three examples of how I think it could have been done but did not try it with a model set up nor mapping each move on paper. So it will be interesting when and if Zug critiques these answers.
zugmann For the record, one of the posters on here has switched this customer the same way I did. But I won't say which poster...
Don't forget to note on the work report, switch list, or timeslip to perhaps bill the industry for re-switching cars 1 and 3. Although those 2 cars were already delivered and not leaving the plant at this time, they had to be separated and then moved individually to new places in order to get the new cars in the order as requested by the industry.
Whether the RR could also charge for cars 5, 2, and 4 depends on the tariff or contract with the industry, local custom, and/ or the good graces and benevolence of the conductor and local RR officials. At one extreme, the RR could consider the shipment complete when the 4 new cars are spotted on the industry's track, in any order - if the industry then wants the cars in a particular sequence, that's up to them to arrange, at their own expense. At the other extreme, the railroad may have obligated itself to deliver the cars in the order as desired by the industry, in which case the RR absorbs most or all of the cost of the added switching here to accomplish that.
In any event, I don't see the RR successfully billing the industry to switch the car for the Pit - it's already in the right position and order, closest to the locomotive - so all the RR has to do is shove that cut up the spur, uncouple, and leave, so no further action is needed or justified to get that one car to the right place.
For the record, one of the posters on here has switched this customer the same way I did. But I won't say which poster...
Ok. LEt me try again...pull lead and go against main, pull pit and five and throw five onto the lead, then go get four and put tht agains five and two back on the main and three against 4 on the lead pick up two off main and put against three, put pit on the main, one against 2 on the lead, then pit against cars on lead and shove back to positions.
Semper Vaporo First you get a bottle of dramamine for the engineer. Then couple onto "Pit" only, leaving "5", "2", and "4" on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit" Then couple to "1", leaving "3" on the spur. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1" Then get "5" and "2" together, leaving 4 on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5, 2" Then get "3". Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5, 2, 3" Then get "4" and leave it and "2" and "3" on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5" Then leave "5" on the spur. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1" Then get "2", "3" and "4". Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 2, 3, 4" Shove the whole shebang into the customers track, picking up "5" on the end in the process. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5" Leave "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" in the tail and pull "Pit" to the Pit. Use a hose to clean of the side of the cab below the engineer's window.
First you get a bottle of dramamine for the engineer.
Then couple onto "Pit" only, leaving "5", "2", and "4" on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit"
Then couple to "1", leaving "3" on the spur. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1"
Then get "5" and "2" together, leaving 4 on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5, 2"
Then get "3". Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5, 2, 3"
Then get "4" and leave it and "2" and "3" on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5"
Then leave "5" on the spur. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1"
Then get "2", "3" and "4". Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 2, 3, 4"
Shove the whole shebang into the customers track, picking up "5" on the end in the process. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5"
Leave "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" in the tail and pull "Pit" to the Pit.
Use a hose to clean of the side of the cab below the engineer's window.
In past threads, Ed Blysard has said his yard crew tries to set up their industry jobs in the right sequence. No doubt there are times when the industry shipping forman advises the industry crew that there has been a change of plans. That's railroading.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
1) Double 1-3 to Pit-5 leaving 2-4 on main.2) Leave 5 on lead.3) Double 1-3-Pit to 2-4.4) Double 4 to 5 on lead.5) Leave Pit-2 on main,6) Double 3 to 4-5 on lead.7) Double 1 to Pit-2 on Main.8) Set Pit on lead away from 3-4-5.9) Double 1-2 on main, leave there.10) Pull Pit from lead, double to 1-2.11) Shove P-1-2 to 3-4-5, then to proper spot.
Ulrich Ok thanks for clarifying...I may get a big fat F on Prof. Zug's course...
Ok thanks for clarifying...I may get a big fat F on Prof. Zug's course...
Graded on a curve. I couldn't pass without it, either.
Paul_D_North_Jr Thanks for posting this. I've been looking for someone to do that for quite a while now. I've got to head out to an appt. shortly, but maybe later tonight I'll post an answer. In the meantime, a couple questions: How'd you draw that nifty diagram/ sketch ? And: How did you get it to appear here ??? Finally: Check your PM's when you have a moment. - Paul North.
Thanks for posting this. I've been looking for someone to do that for quite a while now. I've got to head out to an appt. shortly, but maybe later tonight I'll post an answer.
In the meantime, a couple questions: How'd you draw that nifty diagram/ sketch ?
And: How did you get it to appear here ???
Finally: Check your PM's when you have a moment.
- the drawing is just a quick sketch on MS paint. I loaded it to photobucket and linked it here.
- I got your PM, and I'll respond tomorrow. Almost work time.
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