Maybe a remedial switching school. I'm still new at this yet (and will be until the day I retire/quit).
In the past, I had this industry to switch. Pretty simple place, just a single siding that goes to an unloading pit. There's room behind the pit for 5 more loaded cars. As they empty the cars, they drop them down on the lead towards the main and pull down the next load. The "normal" move is to grab any empties they have, then grab the remaining loads, pull them all out to the main, then grab the new loads. You then shove back up to the industry, and the new loads are behind the old loads. Just like restocking a store shelf. But there's a catch: this company unloads various products. So the "normal" move isn't always possible or wanted.
Sometimes they want their cars switched in a way that they can unload a car of one product, then a car of another product, etc. Here's a situation I stumbled upon: They have 2 empties that were on the lead. Ok, I grabbed them. They also had 2 old loads behind the pit. My train on the main has 4 new loads for them. And they want them all in a specific order. Think about how you would accomplish such a move. I did it a way that I believe was the best, but it may not have been. There's always several ways to switch a customer.
FIrst photo shows the layout of the place. (from bottom to top) you have the main, the lead (which holds about 10 cars between the switch and the pit), the pit itself (holds one car), and room for 5 extra loads. These "spots" are numbered 1-5, with 1 being closest to the pit, and 5 closest to the bumping block.
After I pulled the empties (and pulled the 2 old loads down to the switch at the main), I was looking at the following situation:
The numbers on the cars correspond to where the customer wants the cars to end up when you are all done. That pretty red thing to the left of the switch is your engine. Now the fun part.. how would you switch this with the goal being as few moves as possible? It is cold and you are working by yourself. So you don't want to be out here all night. And your engineer is going to get seasick if you make him go back and forth too much.
Anyone (preferably non-railroaders) up for the challenge?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann [snipped] Maybe a remedial switching school. I'm still new at this yet (and will be until the day I retire/quit).
Thanks for posting this. I've been looking for someone to do that for quite a while now. I've got to head out to an appt. shortly, but maybe later tonight I'll post an answer.
In the meantime, a couple questions: How'd you draw that nifty diagram/ sketch ?
And: How did you get it to appear here ???
Finally: Check your PM's when you have a moment.
- Paul North.
First you get a bottle of dramamine for the engineer.
Then couple onto "Pit" only, leaving "5", "2", and "4" on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit"
Then couple to "1", leaving "3" on the spur. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1"
Then get "5" and "2" together, leaving 4 on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5, 2"
Then get "3". Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5, 2, 3"
Then get "4" and leave it and "2" and "3" on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5"
Then leave "5" on the spur. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1"
Then get "2", "3" and "4". Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 2, 3, 4"
Shove the whole shebang into the customers track, picking up "5" on the end in the process. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5"
Leave "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" in the tail and pull "Pit" to the Pit.
Use a hose to clean of the side of the cab below the engineer's window.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Even with the cold, you didn't mention if we're going for an early quit or overtime. Might make a difference.
Jeff
Also didn't mention if you are working off the Main Track and if other trains are waiting for you to finish this job and if the waiting trains are running for the law and what kind of relationship you are having with the Train Dispatcher this trip and how you feel about the crews on the trains that are waiting for you. Also haven't mentioned how you and the engineer are getting along this trip.
Decisions, Decisions, Decisions.
Despite all the iron and steel involved in railroading - it still is a people business.
jeffhergert Even with the cold, you didn't mention if we're going for an early quit or overtime. Might make a difference. Jeff
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
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I'll attempt with the following two tries.
A: Pull the pit and 5 double to 1 on lead put all that against against 2, got 2 to 3 then go for 4 and put on lead. Put 5 on main, pick lead cars against 5 and push all up lead with 1,2,3,4,5 behind pit. and pit on pit.
B: Put lead against pit and five, then put 3, pit and ,5 on lead, put one against 2, on the main and place against 3 and pull 3 against 4 on main, then grab pit and put on main, put 1,2,3,4 on lead, pic up pit, push all down the lead.
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Sounds like a good way to do it...looks like the railroads employ people who can really think on their feet. . But what about contacting the receiver in advance to determine which loads he wants and in what order? Doing that would eliminate or at least minimize the need to switch at the customer's siding.
Switch and order the cars in a yard...I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that there is a classification yard or at least a yard of some sort between the shipper (s) and that receiver. That's what yards are designed for.. the perfect tool for that job. Also, jury rigging a solution at a siding, although creative and smart, is probably less safe than having the cars classified in a yard. You're out there all by yourself in the cold after all..what if something happens? At least in a yard there are people around and maybe even emergency response availability.
Ulrich, I think the cars come in one or two at a time and not in the order which they will be unloaded. Zug has set the problem up based on the fact that the cars as presented in the diagrams are how the customer wants them put into the siding. I think.
Keep dreaming!
A serving yard that has multiple customers is lucky to get each customers cars together in the order in which the local will service them (work rule change of about 15 years ago eliminated the penalty for not having a local built in station standing order). Crew that build trains in serving yards are not unnecessarily the same crews that will service the customer and have no idea of the specific orders of the customer.
Ulrich Sounds like a good way to do it...looks like the railroads employ people who can really think on their feet. . But what about contacting the receiver in advance to determine which loads he wants and in what order? Doing that would eliminate or at least minimize the need to switch at the customer's siding. Switch and order the cars in a yard...I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that there is a classification yard or at least a yard of some sort between the shipper (s) and that receiver. That's what yards are designed for.. the perfect tool for that job. Also, jury rigging a solution at a siding, although creative and smart, is probably less safe than having the cars classified in a yard. You're out there all by yourself in the cold after all..what if something happens? At least in a yard there are people around and maybe even emergency response availability.
henry6 Ulrich, I think the cars come in one or two at a time and not in the order which they will be unloaded. Zug has set the problem up based on the fact that the cars as presented in the diagrams are how the customer wants them put into the siding. I think.
Ok thanks for clarifying...I may get a big fat F on Prof. Zug's course...
Some clarifications:
Nobody needs to use the mainline. So no worries or pressures from the dispatcher. Ideally, you would have your train with the cars in the right order, but for various reason it doesn't always happen.
Don't over think it too much, just work with what I presented.
Paul_D_North_Jr Thanks for posting this. I've been looking for someone to do that for quite a while now. I've got to head out to an appt. shortly, but maybe later tonight I'll post an answer. In the meantime, a couple questions: How'd you draw that nifty diagram/ sketch ? And: How did you get it to appear here ??? Finally: Check your PM's when you have a moment. - Paul North.
- the drawing is just a quick sketch on MS paint. I loaded it to photobucket and linked it here.
- I got your PM, and I'll respond tomorrow. Almost work time.
Ulrich Ok thanks for clarifying...I may get a big fat F on Prof. Zug's course...
Graded on a curve. I couldn't pass without it, either.
1) Double 1-3 to Pit-5 leaving 2-4 on main.2) Leave 5 on lead.3) Double 1-3-Pit to 2-4.4) Double 4 to 5 on lead.5) Leave Pit-2 on main,6) Double 3 to 4-5 on lead.7) Double 1 to Pit-2 on Main.8) Set Pit on lead away from 3-4-5.9) Double 1-2 on main, leave there.10) Pull Pit from lead, double to 1-2.11) Shove P-1-2 to 3-4-5, then to proper spot.
Dan
Semper Vaporo First you get a bottle of dramamine for the engineer. Then couple onto "Pit" only, leaving "5", "2", and "4" on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit" Then couple to "1", leaving "3" on the spur. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1" Then get "5" and "2" together, leaving 4 on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5, 2" Then get "3". Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5, 2, 3" Then get "4" and leave it and "2" and "3" on the main. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 5" Then leave "5" on the spur. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1" Then get "2", "3" and "4". Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 2, 3, 4" Shove the whole shebang into the customers track, picking up "5" on the end in the process. Train is now "Engine, Pit, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5" Leave "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" in the tail and pull "Pit" to the Pit. Use a hose to clean of the side of the cab below the engineer's window.
In past threads, Ed Blysard has said his yard crew tries to set up their industry jobs in the right sequence. No doubt there are times when the industry shipping forman advises the industry crew that there has been a change of plans. That's railroading.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Ok. LEt me try again...pull lead and go against main, pull pit and five and throw five onto the lead, then go get four and put tht agains five and two back on the main and three against 4 on the lead pick up two off main and put against three, put pit on the main, one against 2 on the lead, then pit against cars on lead and shove back to positions.
For the record, one of the posters on here has switched this customer the same way I did. But I won't say which poster...
Don't forget to note on the work report, switch list, or timeslip to perhaps bill the industry for re-switching cars 1 and 3. Although those 2 cars were already delivered and not leaving the plant at this time, they had to be separated and then moved individually to new places in order to get the new cars in the order as requested by the industry.
Whether the RR could also charge for cars 5, 2, and 4 depends on the tariff or contract with the industry, local custom, and/ or the good graces and benevolence of the conductor and local RR officials. At one extreme, the RR could consider the shipment complete when the 4 new cars are spotted on the industry's track, in any order - if the industry then wants the cars in a particular sequence, that's up to them to arrange, at their own expense. At the other extreme, the railroad may have obligated itself to deliver the cars in the order as desired by the industry, in which case the RR absorbs most or all of the cost of the added switching here to accomplish that.
In any event, I don't see the RR successfully billing the industry to switch the car for the Pit - it's already in the right position and order, closest to the locomotive - so all the RR has to do is shove that cut up the spur, uncouple, and leave, so no further action is needed or justified to get that one car to the right place.
zugmann For the record, one of the posters on here has switched this customer the same way I did. But I won't say which poster...
Which leads to a couple of questions for you puzzle geniuses: Is there a fundamental underlying principle that you use to organize this operation ? Or is it just random 'trial-and-error' of each possible combination of cars and moves until one seems to be better than the others, and you stop the analysis there and use that one ? If so, then how do you know there isn't yet another even better (less moves) sequence of moves that you haven't considered yet ?
Mathematics - numerical methods - is what it is, not probability and statistics (gambling).
Paul, the answers to your questions are: yes and no, somtimes, somehow and maybe; for all of them. I am a sports fan...mostly hockey and football..but do not follow plays and logistics. Yet, here is a good case for knowing such. I dunno. I remember listening to and watching the local drill's crew talking about, planning, and executing moves in see sawing, pushing, pulling, doubling out and over, etc. But that was over 50 years ago and I was a kid thrilled to be in the cab or caboose or just standing next to the trainman on the ground giving signals. Today, it might be a change of brain brought about by time that allows me to figure out what to do. I gave three examples of how I think it could have been done but did not try it with a model set up nor mapping each move on paper. So it will be interesting when and if Zug critiques these answers.
Paul_D_North_Jr zugmann: For the record, one of the posters on here has switched this customer the same way I did. But I won't say which poster... Me - I'd have probably just gone ahead and done it by the 'brute force' method - simply switch 5 in, then switch 4 in, and so on. No standing around trying to chess-game puzzle out which is the fastest way to do it, meanwhile the clock is running, and some supervisor or the industry is wondering why the switch engine isn't moving and the couplers aren't being banged together. Plus, then at least one car gets placed in its final 'spot' immediately, then another - the next, and so on, instead of waiting until the last shove when they all come together and fall into place in one grand finale. Which leads to a couple of questions for you puzzle geniuses: Is there a fundamental underlying principle that you use to organize this operation ? Or is it just random 'trial-and-error' of each possible combination of cars and moves until one seems to be better than the others, and you stop the analysis there and use that one ? If so, then how do you know there isn't yet another even better (less moves) sequence of moves that you haven't considered yet ? Mathematics - numerical methods - is what it is, not probability and statistics (gambling). - Paul North.
zugmann: For the record, one of the posters on here has switched this customer the same way I did. But I won't say which poster...
Me - I'd have probably just gone ahead and done it by the 'brute force' method - simply switch 5 in, then switch 4 in, and so on. No standing around trying to chess-game puzzle out which is the fastest way to do it, meanwhile the clock is running, and some supervisor or the industry is wondering why the switch engine isn't moving and the couplers aren't being banged together. Plus, then at least one car gets placed in its final 'spot' immediately, then another - the next, and so on, instead of waiting until the last shove when they all come together and fall into place in one grand finale.
The ground man will figure out the best way. It's the one where he has the least walking, riding, hand brake tying down and switch throwing to do.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Somebody once observed (a long time ago) that switching operations proceed at about the same pace as the ground man walks . . . . . . and that the sequence of moves that has significantly less walking - though maybe more total 'moves' - is likely to be the quickest.
I had a few more variables to deal with that I left off of the problem. Namely - an appreciable grade on the lead, and other cars behind my new loads. So the moves I made were to minimize the number of handbrakes I would have to apply and release.
zugmann I had a few more variables to deal with that I left off of the problem. Namely - an appreciable grade on the lead, and other cars behind my new loads. So the moves I made were to minimize the number of handbrakes I would have to apply and release.
I had gathered there was a grade since you mentioned the cars were moved from load area to the pit but did not mention a company switcher. And since the loads were behind the pit, I assume the grade from the main to end leadn and siding was up.
Now i'm trying to figure out what industry you are talking about...LOL
Zugs: I thought you and Scotty had that invention you've been working on in your basement perfected by now.....(the "transporter" I think you called it)
Neat thread...got another trick for us to switch? Otherwise I may (if you're ok with it) present one I've seen locally here.
oltmannd The ground man will figure out the best way. It's the one where he has the least walking, riding, hand brake tying down and switch throwing to do.
Too true!
CNW 6000 Neat thread...got another trick for us to switch? Otherwise I may (if you're ok with it) present one I've seen locally here.
All yours bud...
zugmann [snipped] . . . So the moves I made were to minimize the number of handbrakes I would have to apply and release.
And so there's another big reason to find the way to do it with the least number of moves. Not only does each move take its own time, but each move also involves and includes other time-consuming ancillary operations - such as stopping a carlength before the coupling, making sure the knuckle is open, making the coupling, testing the coupling to make sure the pin dropped, etc., plus the release of the handbrakes; or, bunching the slack, applying the handbrakes, pulling the pin, and then pulling away. If the air has to be used, then add "3-step protection" for the conductor to go into the "red zone' and lace together the air hoses and turn the anglecocks to charge the train line, and likely also inspect the brakes to make sure they're applying and releasing, before moving that cut of cars . . .
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