Yet More CSX 'Buffoonery'!

[Anonymous]

Bruce - I couldn't agree with you more on the issue that these trucks are tearing up our roads so whenever possible these freights should be transported by the railways. Having lived in the Detroit area all my life I wish we would see less of the trucks around here. They drive like maniacs through these towns trying to beat traffic problems. We're seeing less and less short lines around here but I can't understand why. I know the mafia here from Detroit to New Jersey has strengthened the truckers in past years but who is helping truckers now? Can this change direction around here like I hear in other parts of the country? I suppose if the new Michigan gas taxes go up on disel fuel like they're threatening it will influence more rail frieghting.?.

[wabash1]

let me see if i get this right. i not sure what you mean. to start with you call me a clown. i have went from conductor to engineer to clown. i myself didnt know i was a trainmaster. i was still getting paid as a engineer. i need to check into this. the 3 ring binder is a book on how to get fired. if you go by the rules you wont get fired. and believe me i have moved many tons of goods by the rules. and make it in my 12 hour aloted time. just remember when they call they have you for 12 hours or more. im not sure what a cohorts is. i myself know how the break system works thats where you take off for about 30 min doing nothing and cant be found. most yard crews do this.now as far as the brake system on trains i know how this works to. its not worth bottling air to lose your job. your arguement would be good if someone was to walk the train in the cold/heat but where is the conductor at after he couples the train back up. on the engine and if he is a new guy he wont walk the train when the air isnt comming up on the rear. after 50 min of pumping on the train i wasnt moving no air on the rear and a high flow on the meter. what should have been a 30 min set off was 2hr 25min couse the conductor didnt want to do his job. the rule books works both ways . as far as rest goes that can be a problem. not all trains can run between 9am and 5pm over all districts. so dont go out screwing off and get your rest at away from home terminal and you be ready for work. ive layed over for 30 hrs and still rested for work. the problem is these kids they hire today think its party time and not rested when the railroads call and cant work they haft to understand that you are on call 24hrs a day unless you have a regular job ( yard local etc). as far as switching goes you dont need to protect your shove as long as you can see the rear. in closing if you dont want to work by thier rules quit.... or do it by thier rules and open your pockets wide and take the money.

[jsanchez]

As long as the class ones stay away from mergers they seem to gain in market share, this was true until the U.P/ SP debacle and the CSX/NS Conrail mergers. Now that things are quiet the railroads are indeed capturing market share again. The person that mentioned trucks being more important is partially right( I hate to admit this) Railroads may haul more in tonnage, I believe it is around 40% rail to 30% trucks( U.S. DOT figures), but the truckers get 7 times the revenue and seem to haul a much larger share of finished goods.(higher value)
I see this as a growth potential for railroads, they really need to get in to the finished goods hauling business more to make the big bucks. Intermodal is only part of the picture, but is growing, a lot of growth is happening in the boxcar and refrigerated reefer business. The frozen food business was the fastest growing sector in the rail indusrty, this is a great example of a nearly dead rail freight business coming back from the dead and 100% of this new traffic has come from the trucking industry. Why is the refrigerated boxcar business coming back because the railroads can offer good competive service again now that they aren't stuck with focusing on merger problems. A boxcar can handle 3-5 truckloads, and requires far less labor to move the tonage. Trucks and intermodal are more labor intensive, the drayage costs between terminals can be almost as expensive as the long haul. Labor costs and driver shotages, have made many of the trucking companies marginal operations profit wise., there is a major shake out of trucking companies going on right now, many are money losers.
Shortline railroads are actually responsible for a large per centage of rail traffic growth and 85% of this is with traditional car load business. Once a shortline takes over a branch or secondary traffic often doubles in a few years, due them actually practicing customer service and being pro-active towards getting new business, yes its called marketing.

[Anonymous]

A good sign is that the rail intermodel business is only growing. More and more railroads are making it their top priorities. BNSF and UP already have it as their most profitable load, both with PRB coal comming up second. Take that trucks!!

[Anonymous]

Greg you are right Hommie and Jim are union employes and they are good railroaders also.CN is a good Railroad and BNSF also.Keep up the good work.

[thirdrail1]

Yeah, and I suppose UPS delivered the coal to the power plant that generates the electricity to run the computer you use to type such drivel. Look out, you'll get these union boys calling you names like they did me.

[Anonymous]

hoyle, we at CN move many UPS trailers from one end of the continent to the other. That transformer you talked about most likely was at the end of it's journey, we also move many of those. All the lumber that the furniture co. in your home town uses at one time I can asure was on a flat car. Come on and be serious by the volume alone one train replaces hundreds and hundreds of trucks. Why do you think JB Hunt uses intermodal? Maybe because transit times are shorter and the costs are less, yeah I thuink so.

Get a grip hoyle if trucks move everything more efficently and faster, why do railways still exist and turn a profit? Stumped, probably!

[Anonymous]

Ok Hommie I give up my wife called and said UPS was delevering a special package I got to sign for.Iam going outside to wait for the DASH-9 to pull up and the long string of flat cars.You thank he can turn around without hitting my ford ranger and the house.I got a lot of money tied up in my HO SCALE Trains.

[Anonymous]

Hello 'according to Hoyle'...your rehetoric regarding the dynamic's of freight movement is erroneous. Do you remember the last time a R.R. in this country was allowed to strike? Never in the last 30 plus yrs. Every time a short wild-cat strike happened, is was droned out by a Presidential Emergency Board. The only reason I'm droneing on myself about this is that in just 3 day's after our last walk-out and every time previous, the largest industry's in this country close, lay off, and threaten to shut down because their volume cannot move. Eg...Kelloge of Battle Creek, G.M., Ford Mtrs., Crysler, on and on 'ad-nausium'. Freight in this country moves on rail. The short and unfortunatly more precise deliveries are largely done with what you alluded to...Truck's that clog up , and destroy our high-way's. When 1 stack-train carries well over 200 truck trailer's, what do you think is the most efficent mode for our commidities in long haul?...Take Care...Hommie

[Anonymous]

Please prove trains carry more goods than trucks.I can name a lot of companys that dont ship by rail look around you.I go to the grocery store and dont see tracks running to it.How does it get there you tell me.All the funiture plants in North Carolina took the tracks out years agao and dont use intermodal also.A chansaw company in my hometown gave up on there trucks to use cheaper JB HUNT.The shipping Dept wanted to know why its taking so long JB HUNT said your load is on the rail.They said dont ship our loads that way again or we will go back to indenpendent trucks.I can tell more of this.How does all these intermodal trains recieve these trailers BY TRUCK.How do they get to where they are going BY TRUCK.They are a lot of communitys without rail service how do they survive.You will like this i was driving a concrete truck and saw a big huge truck carring a large transformer swerving left to right everybody was trying to get around it i pulled up to the excourt driver and said that thing needs to be on the rails.The driver look at me did not know what to say.

[Anonymous]

In every profession there are 10% that aren't any good. Just because your friend is like that doesn't mean we're all like that. Just because someone is taking pictures I wouldn't soak the train. As far as trucks always carring most of the world's goods, that's not true. Everyday the railways take back more and more business from trucks with intermodal trains, which move cargo cheaper and faster than trucks. With the way traffic is getting in most urban centres trucks will loose more and more business because they can't meet the commitments on the frieght. Majority of railroaders do their best everyday to do a good job.

[Anonymous]

phantom72 I know a professional railroader when he was younger and railfaning.I did not thank he would change.HE was crazy over railroads wonted to do nothing but be an engineer for guess who CSX and guess what my favoret to.He was running out of Charlotte NC and saw a woman taking pitchers of the train.He said if that happens again somehow the train would go into emergency.I ask him what about all these TOFC and COFC loads. Guess what he said THE HELL WITH ALL THESE PIGS..Now is that professional or what.Now trucking will allways carry most of the WORLD'S GOODS.I dont like that also but what can you do.I like railroads just as much as the rest do.So lets all do our best to make railroading great.

[Anonymous]

What is all the inane, hostile babbling about hoyle. We do the best job we can and with very little supervision. If you don't work for the rr then much of "complaining" you might not understand. Things at the rr have changed drastically in the last ten years, most for the worst.

The professional railroaders for the most part take great pride in what they do and in doing a good job for the customer. The companies however could care less about many customers and treat them that way. Just ask some of the pros here you'll see.

[Anonymous]

Hello Again LordGear...you're response was welcomed. We have too much in common. The one rule change that we have that I really hate the most is not being able to get on and off moving equippment! I believe that this rule has single-handedly slowed down more job's than anything else, and made the work more difficult. Sometimes I just have to get off on the 'fly' just for fun when no one's around. As you probably know, the U.P. crew's stuck together and successfully fought this rediculous rule. Where I work, we use 'Utilities' to help the 'short-crew's' with their 'move's' etc. But even though they 'attach' themselves to a crew, the 'road-crew's' still can get penalty slip's for going over their maximum amount of said move's etc. I know all to well about the difficulty of getting rest etc, and getting caught-short out of town etc., that's why I gave up the 'road', and went to 'Hostler-Pilot' job's. We shuttle road-power around the Seattle Terminal so the Pool-crew's do'nt 'fornicate the canine' and wind up on 'I.T.' or overtime. Funny how it really does'nt help though. Like you said, there are a million way's that the rule's enable a crew to achieve those end's. The money is'nt as good, but the quit's are great...take care...Hommie

[Anonymous]

Hello Mr. Hoyle...you're right...the R.R.'s need to be more cognicant of on time performance. How-ever...when it comes to shear volume of ton's of freight hauled per mile, no-one on this planet haul's anything close to what one "Stack-Train' can haul. For example, one such train usually haul's 200-250 truck container's at a time. If they could just get is there a little quicker!...Take Care...Hommie

[Anonymous]

Lordgear you work for a rr.You need to pay attition to your job.Maby some of us dont work for a rr.We would do a better job than you.I know a uneducated truck driver can.They delever on time and haul more freight.Remember if you got it a truck brought it.So clowns quiet complaining and start delivering.

[Anonymous]

I've been at rr for 12 years and have yet to see them care about anything other than moving cars. When the crew office calls for a job at 1 am they know you aren't rested, but that's the nature of the beast. If we expect the college kids they hire to run the place care then we've got a long wait.

As far as rule violations go we should just do it by the book and slow it right down. The new trainmasters all have new ideas that just make us more money. They're great!

The company version is always tilted to blame the crew. The signal couldn't have displayed an improper indication. This was proven at another accident years after a collision, the company knew about it. I think it was Conrail somewhere in Pennsylvania, the signal hadn't been cleaned and the lens was covered in rust which made the signal look yellow, when it was red. This stuff happens out there,it's not all human error.

[Anonymous]

Hommie Yes,my spelling sucks. I'm sorry for the name calling,but it get upset with those who allways want to blame the crew. These recent collision's have more than 1 screw up, and might I add, you weren't there. I wasn't either. It could have been that these crew's weren't rested,meaning maybe 1 or more were allready up for 14 or more hours before being called to work. There are no protections for these things.The co. doesn't care,they don't ask if you are rested. I don't know every detail, I just wi***hat other's who allso don't know, not jump to the co. verson so quickly. Live long and prosper..LordGear

[Anonymous]

Hello LordGear...I never though my new 'thread' would start such a discussion. The responses are getting more and more entertaining. Name calling, no matter how benign does'nt help you make the mispellings in your argument any more compelling. I realise all to well that the GCOR is often used as a weapon against me and my fellow worker's, but that has not diminished my frustration with all of the 'collision's' we've seen in the last few week's on Class 1 R.R's. I've worked for the G.N., B.N., and now the B.N.S.F. here in the Seattle area at Interbay for 33 year's. I understand the nuances of this occupation as well as anyone. I used to 'bottle-the-air', to save time...so what,I was forced to change my way of operating just like you--if you are what you say you are. I don't smoke you know what on the job any more either. Most of these new rules are obviously created as a result of prior mishap's. As you know, using the rules is a two-way street. I'm sure you have been part of a 'rules-observance' (slow-down' right?) 'Wave-action' is what I believe you were trying as best you could to explain, and for an 'F.N.G.' you almost did a good job...Good Luck... Hommie

[Anonymous]

I wonder Terry, have you ever worked as a trainman or engineer? Or were you a manager at Burgerking before this?Maybe straight out of collage? You mean to tell me you have NEVER hiden some where to watch a crew for rule violations? You honestly think that if we were to follow every rule , we would get things done? You do know, of course, that a break test ( by the rules ) requires that a conductor or car department walk the application on BOTH SIDES of the train? The rule states that the shoes must be against every wheel. This means that when leaving a yard with a 130 car train, it would take better than 2 hours just for the break test. Tell me, have you or your buddies cut jobs,crew, but still expect the work to get done? Maybe cut off a switchman, to make a job conductor only, but not cut any of his work. Tell me, how does he switch one end a protect the other end? The ansewer is he can't, and this is understood. The track holds 90 cars and the yard master wants you shove the track in because it only has 60 cars on it, if the conductor tries to go to the rear to protect the shove, he gets yelled at for holding up the move (in a hump yard). OK,there are a few managers that don't get a hard-on for trying to fire people, maybe you are one of those, but if this is true , you are in the minority.

[Anonymous]

Terry, I don't know any supervisiors who don't look the other way as long as the cars are getting spotted on time, but put one on the ground when kicking, look out. We kick cars everyday in front of the trainmasters and nothing is said. If we don't kick cars we will most likely be late. They don't want that so they stay silent.

The only thing I can say about bottling the air is, why do it? The longer it takes to pump off the brakes the better. Running for the quit doesn't make any sense when you put your job on the line.

Saxman, ever fire someone who got their job back? If so, then you fired them!

[Saxman]

As a manager on a Class 1 railroad, I am absolutely incensed with this reponse. I DO NOT TELL CREWS TO VIOLATE RULES. I DO NOT LOOK THE OTHER WAY in the name of moving traffic. I am sick to death of hearing: "If the company excpected us to follow the rules we would never move a train." If the crew did not understand the air brake system, there is a rule that says to talk to a supervisor that does. Responsibility for know and understanding the rules is a two way street.

I have never fired anyone. They fired themselves. This idea that as soon as your hired, the company is trying to fire is pure B.S. It is expensive to train someone. Why would a company then turn around and want to train again?

Are there managers out there who care could care less about the rules and just get the train out of my terminal? Yes! Are there crews that only care about the early quit or overtime? Yes! The point here is both sides have faults. The sitiuation will only improve when the fingers stop pointing and each "side" accepts its share of the responsibility.

[Anonymous]

Hommie,and the rest of u clowns.Take a good look at that 3 ring binder.Each and every rule in there can get you fired.When you get hired on the railroad, the management welcomes you on board,then starts trying to fire you. You and your silly cohorts, who it is quite clear have never worked for any railroad, are so quick to judge. If I and my fellow railroaders were to follow every rule, the railroads would never move any frieght.That rulebook is there to cover there *** when something goes wrong, or someone gets hurt. Then they can pull out the book to show the rule that was violated. When there comes a time when they have to many workers, the book is used to thin the workforce. If they have a shortage of workers, the rulebook is placed on the shelf. The crew you mentioned bottled the air so they could recharge it quicker. They did this because they dont understand how the breaking system works. All you need is a 1&1/2 lbs increase, and the air tanks on the cars start dumping air into the breakline to help recharge it. It is a quick release feature found on all cars today. So if just 1 car leaks air into the breakpipe,then a domino effect comes into play and all breaks will release. On a cold day, with a 100 car train, it can take over 40 min.to recharge a train w/no air in it. They were trying to save time. I would think that this was the company's fault for not making sure the men new about the break system of a train and how it works.

[Anonymous]

Paul i like what you said the T&E should be proud to have you as an employee.The railroads have a future with people like you.Hope you help get more trucks off the highway.

[Anonymous]

Paul i like what you said the T&E should be proud to have you as an employee.The railroads have a future with people like you.Hope you help get more trucks off the highway.

[Anonymous]

Don, in Canada you have to have an alerter on the lead locomotive or you can't run. I'm surprised that the US railways are allowed to run without one when this saftey device might save lives.

[wabash1]

the problem i have with the statement is if they bottled air then why didnt he just bust the air with the "hot". that would have been better than trying to stop a train that aint going to stop. i been showed how to bottle the air and let it out slow to keep the retainers from sticking open but if the engineer is afforded the oppertunity to draw them down before cutting away then this wont happen either. when its cold out it dont matter its going to take awhile to pump them up. what they did was a big gamble that they lost with respect to their jobs.

[PaulWWoodring]

I'm a T&E employee for said carrier and asked a trainmaster about the Rochester wreck last week. The word from management is that the crew "bottled" the air, that is they closed both angle cocks after taking a full-service reduction off the brake pipe, and then cut-away, not setting any handbrakes to save time on recoupling and pumping the air back up in cold weather. The car reservoirs then released enough air into the system to initiate a release of the brakes and they rolled into the engine, the engineer not being able to stop them with just the independent. It's rare, but as little as a 2 lb. increase in brake pipe pressure can initiate a brake release. The rules clearly state that bottling the air is a big no-no, and you are not supposed to depend on the emergency brakes to hold cars not coupled to an engine. Fairly common is cutting away briefly without setting handbrakes to make a set-off/pick-up on line-of-road. In any event, a word to the wise for any other CSX employees reading this - supervision is going to be efficiency testing for these things for awhile.

The crew involved had about 2 years each, so they came through the new training program, like I did.
I have believed that the new way of training transportation employees on an accelerated basis could lead to dangerous things happening, but this particular incident was probably caused by them doing what they had seen "old heads" do before, and get away with. Still, some of the others are right, that the old "apprentice" type of training has it's merits, and I think that a major reason railroads like hiring people with at least some college or a degree, like me, is that they might be a little faster in absorbing all that is being thrown at them in a very short period of time. I went from essentially being off the street (although with a railfan and Amtrak OBS background) through conductor training and engineer school to having a federal card in less than two years. Yes, I feel that I was thrown to the wolves in a lot of ways, but I think I am finally getting to the point of being fairly competent. I am grateful that no critical incidents have happened around me yet. I don't know if my level of experience would have prepared me to react properly, or in time to prevent a disaster. I think CSX is making a mistake in not having a locomotive simulator at it's engineer school, relying instead totally on the field training part of engineer training to give students behind the throttle experience. I think you really need the opportunity to try to prevent a "wreck" on a simulator that no training engineer would dare take a chance on with a real train and a student. After all, it's their card at stake.

To address a couple of other comments:

Unions do sometimes protect bad employees that should be fired, but we all pay the same dues, and I expect to get some kind of representation for all of that money that comes out of my check every month, just like our justice system entitles everyone to legal representation, the unions can't tell a member in good standing that they don't deserve to be represented to the fullest extent possible. Yes, some bad apples do get back, but just like the O.J. case, sometimes the guilty get away with it - for awhile.

About crew fatigue and sleep deprivation - sometimes, despite one's best efforts to be rested and ready to go, you just can't guess right on when you'll be called to work. I've gone straight to bed after a trip thinking I'll be back out in 8 hours and end up being home 18+, ready to go back to bed when the call comes. Even if you've had a reasonable amount of sleep, the human body was meant to be asleep at 3 am, so you're not going to be totally sharp at that time of day. There comes a point at which all the caffine (or alerters) in the world will not keep you awake any longer. Also, locomotive alerters do not have total consistancy as to when they will go off, it can vary anywhere between 20 sec. and 2 min., certainly enough time for disaster to strike.

Hope some of this rings true. Happy New Year.

[Anonymous]

Don
Are you sure that she fell asleep? The locomotive she was in was either an SD90 Mac or an AC6000. Both should have been equiped with an alerter, or should not have been in service as the lead unit. If this is true, it is both the railroad's and the crew's fault. I know how easy it is to fall asleep at the throttle, but the alerter helps a lot, and has surely saved many lives.

Brian