267 is actually a pretty average load, especially on a weekday, considering that there are only a little over 340 total seats. On weekends I have seen many sell outs out of Raleigh. The peak is usually between Fredricksburg and Quantico.
While railfanning this this route by car several weeks ago, I drove through this location and thought that it was not a safe design. I would hope that VDOT takes a look at it now.
blue streak 1 Phoebee: 267 passengers -- godd load probably 5 - 1/2 Amfleet - 2 car loads. Waiting for updates from you. Have you heard anything about the earlier Carolinian that hit the oversize load ? We have been wondering disposition of the various items of that accident.
Phoebee:
267 passengers -- godd load probably 5 - 1/2 Amfleet - 2 car loads.
Waiting for updates from you.
Have you heard anything about the earlier Carolinian that hit the oversize load ? We have been wondering disposition of the various items of that accident.
The last I heard, Amtrack was suing the trucking company:
http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/05/01/amtrak-sues-n-c-trucking-firm-over-crash.htm
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
BaltACDAP story made it seem like the writer was disappointed that there wasn't a derailment and injuries...
If it bleeds, it leads... No carnage, no story.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
AP story made it seem like the writer was disappointed that there wasn't a derailment and injuries - 2/3's of the article was on the incident 6 months ago hitting the modular building.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
...and again:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article34683495.html
Yet another truck driver thought the train would swerve.
"Amtrak spokeswoman Kimberly Woods said 267 passengers were on the Carolinian, which travels daily between Charlotte and New York City, when it hit the vehicle Thursday in Pleasant Hill near the Virginia line..."
Paul_D_North_Jr If the railroad was notified when the truck was 30 minutes away, that would be 10 miles if the truck was moving at 20 MPH. A lot can happen in that 10 miles to delay the truck - and hence the railroad - which would not be appreciated from a cooperation standpoint. ("Stab the UPS train ?!?") - Paul North.
If the railroad was notified when the truck was 30 minutes away, that would be 10 miles if the truck was moving at 20 MPH. A lot can happen in that 10 miles to delay the truck - and hence the railroad - which would not be appreciated from a cooperation standpoint. ("Stab the UPS train ?!?")
- Paul North.
This is why you might well see a railroad employee at the site. Trains are notified that Employee X has control of the track between Y and Z. On approach, they call for clearance from some distance out (whatever the radios will allow). If the truck isn't there yet (or isn't already fouling the track), they get permission through, probably at maximum allowable speed. If the truck is there, and is fouling the track when they call, they'll stop at the established limit until cleared by Employee X.
Simple. Done every day for various situations.
The other option (no employee on site) has already been mentioned. Escort calls the DS, who puts up appropriate blocks, then lets them cross. When they're clear of the crossing, they call back and the DS lifts the blocks.
In either case, any train that would otherwise get "stabbed" would likely be allowed to pass before the crossing was made.
When dealing with MofW for track occupancy or protection - don't tell the Dispatcher when you 'anticipate' you are 30 minutes from the location - tell him when you are THERE and occupancy or protection will be implemented as necessary AT THAT TIME, based upon what is taking place on the territory at the time. That 30 minutes on the highway could turn into an hour or more with some incident that you are not in control of.
The same caveats apply to a outside party wanting protection for crossing over the track at a road crossing with a oversized load. Waiting whatever time is required to get PROTECTION outweighs having the load bisected by a train, for both the railroad and the shipper of the load.
Paul_D_North_Jr Aren't the time impositions on the DS and crew to set up and release a Track Warrant or foul time, Form B, etc. a lot more than just using the signals at CP to control / stop any movements through the crossing that's involved ?
Aren't the time impositions on the DS and crew to set up and release a Track Warrant or foul time, Form B, etc. a lot more than just using the signals at CP to control / stop any movements through the crossing that's involved ?
Depends upon what specific kind of authority has been authorized.
csxns Wonder if this load could went by rail.
Wonder if this load could went by rail.
Not at 16 feet wide.
EuclidThe point is that crossing with a special move like that cannot just rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning. So I asked how much warning was needed. I was told that the warning must be no closer than the closest control point because that is the last opportunity for the dispatcher to stop the train. I understand that, but if the closest control point is just around the curve, and I think it is way too close. As I said, I think at least 30 minutes would be prudent. That way, if the truck starts across and hangs up, there is 30 minutes to contact the dispatcher and get the train stopped. That would not be what I call failsafe, but 30 minutes is reasonably prudent. But the failsafe method would be to lock out rail traffic before the truck starts across, and don’t unlock it until the truck is in the clear.
I've dealt with stuff like this when I was in the DS hot seat. Foreman Smith calls and says he needs to cross the tracks with his bucket loader. If nothing is coming, I could put blocks on the tracks (which prevented me from lining a train through there), and let him across. 2 minutes. If there's a train in the same block, then Mr. Smith is going to have to wait until it passes.
Maybe there's a slop freight 2 blocks away. I don't wan tthem to have to slow down for an approach and stop, so they probably will get to go through before Mr. Smith. He may have to wait 15 minutes.
If there's a UPS train 30 minutes away, then Mr. Smith may have to wait 30 minutes. Beucase there's no way I want to explain to the chief that the UPS train is now stuck becuase Mr. Smith's piece of crap wheel loader broke down, blocking the main. The trains only can run as far as they are lined up/instructed. The dispatcher lines them up. So there is no magical number of minutes needed.
On the railroad line, the dispatcher is God. (S)He controls all.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Russell
Bucky - Go back and read Balt's and my posts. There are established procedures - nay, RULES - for dealing with such situations. No need to re-invent the wheel.
There is no set time frame. If there will be a known fouling of the tracks, the crew will be notified well ahead of time, via a track warrant, EC-1, Form B, or whatever means a given railroad uses to convey such information.
The railroad may choose to take the track out of service, or establish work limits, with a foreman or flagman on site. Trains will then contact whoever is in charge (as included on the BO, TW, or whatever) for permission to pass. And they will approach the limits prepared to stop. That limit could be a milepost - it doesn't have to be a signal or CP.
With radios, this can be done "on the fly." It's done every day, in fact.
Remember, too, that CPs are part of the signal system. A train is not likely to come around a curve at speed and find a stop signal in their face. Barring a bona fide emergency, the DS would not do that. So a given train will get three or four signals with progressively restricting aspects as they approach the stop.
That it appears that the railroad was never notified tends to say that no one considered the possibility of fouling the crossing for any more time than what it would normally take for a vehicle to cross. Had this incident not involved a turn, we likely would not be discussing it.
In fact, it's possible that similar trucks have made the same transit without incident, which might explain why the planner didn't find it necessary to notify the railroad.
We can fault the trooper for not calling immediately, but I'm sure a goodly number of us have encountered a glitch in a project that will "just take a moment" to resolve, and ends up taking far more than that. In fact, I believe he made a comment to a motorist to the effect that it wasn't necessary to call the railroad. I'm sure all involved thought the truck was going to make it "this time."
Hindsight is almost always 20-20. I'm sure that all involved will consider this a lesson learned, and new policies and procedures for such oversize movements will be forthcoming.
Two words - foul time.
If I'm going to foul the track, I get foul time per the rules. The DS will give me that time and prohibit any other occupancy.
If this shipment was going to cross the tracks multiple times, perhaps a railroad employee should have accompanied the movement as well. He (or she) could have been in contact with the DS to verify start and finish of the foul time.
There are other approaches, as has been noted. Regardless of the method used, the shipment would have had exclusive use of that portion of the track, with trains held at appropriate locations, as necessary.
With all due respect, Euclid, I don't think your idea is failsafe.
This business of instructing the T&E crew to be "prepared to stop" seems a bit foolish to me. Doesn't it make more sense to tell the T&E crew where to stop, and inform them that they have NO permission AT ALL to move their train beyond that point until the DS informs them that the obstruction is gone. I don't suppose the railroad would be able to charge the trucker a fee for disruption of their operations in most cases; but it seems that extensive delays should only be allowed at a hefty price to the trucker. I don't know the legal issues involved.
Tom
After the dust settles and the lawsuits are done, I see a trucking company going out of business.
Norm
It would be productive if some one could find a copy of the NC state patrol policy manual on blocked RR crossings. As well for comparsion what other state's manuals say.
Euclid BaltACD Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing. I would think the train should be prepared to stop if the crossing event is started less than 30 minutes from the time the train will arrive. If the train is more than 30 minutes away, and not prepared to stop, that would allow ample time to contact the railroad to stop the train. That is not how it is done! Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross.Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted and gets notified by the crossing party that the identified trains have passed and is then given permission to cross the crossing.Dispatcher blocks off Control Points on either side of crossing until party reports the move has been completed and track is OK to resume traffic. These are not unusual requests and are handled in a routine matter. When you say, “Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross. Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted…” How short does the time interval between the dispatcher notification and the arrival of the train have to be before the dispatcher would not give permission to cross until after the train passes? I think the time interval should not be less than 30 minutes. If they want to make it less, then have the train prepared to stop if the crossing is blocked.
BaltACD Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing. I would think the train should be prepared to stop if the crossing event is started less than 30 minutes from the time the train will arrive. If the train is more than 30 minutes away, and not prepared to stop, that would allow ample time to contact the railroad to stop the train. That is not how it is done! Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross.Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted and gets notified by the crossing party that the identified trains have passed and is then given permission to cross the crossing.Dispatcher blocks off Control Points on either side of crossing until party reports the move has been completed and track is OK to resume traffic. These are not unusual requests and are handled in a routine matter.
Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing. I would think the train should be prepared to stop if the crossing event is started less than 30 minutes from the time the train will arrive. If the train is more than 30 minutes away, and not prepared to stop, that would allow ample time to contact the railroad to stop the train.
That is not how it is done!
Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross.Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted and gets notified by the crossing party that the identified trains have passed and is then given permission to cross the crossing.Dispatcher blocks off Control Points on either side of crossing until party reports the move has been completed and track is OK to resume traffic.
These are not unusual requests and are handled in a routine matter.
BaltACD had previously linked a Yahoo.com News story about this incident. His reference to duties of the Dispatch and Railroad should be taken as 'gospel' here; for reasons obviously known in these Forums.
Euclid is correct about the Train's engineer being prepared to stop ( due to a warning from his Dispatch)...Absolutely correct on both partts. BUT each position is only able to react to protect the rail traffic, IF they have been warned in ADVANCE...
Normally, the person responsibe for moving the load, orders a state issued permit; notifying the railroad would be the ESCORT's for the oversize load's responbsibility. That person would have a clear understanding of their responsibilities for protecting the oversized load, and any official notifications to be made regarding the movement.
The oversized load that was involved in this move was far oversized in the movement of wide loads. Not only was it very heavy at 127 tons, and 254,000 lbs.
It was over diamentional: at about 16' tall, by 16' wide, and 164' in length ( the articles are not clear if that is the total length of the tractor, a' joedog' and the load. (A 'joedog' refers to an extra set of additional wt bearing axles). it was rerported to have been on a total 13 axles(?) .
The particular railroad line involved in this incident is a CSX 'A' Line, and hosts some 35 trains a day, freight and passenger. It is also stated in some of the posted-linked articles that the time frame for this crossing to have been blocked was anywhere between 8 to 20 minutes. It was very obvious that the N.C. Highway Patrol accepts no responsibility for any notifications to the Railroad due to the crossing being blocked. It seems to throw all that on the Trucking Company and the escort and most likely their insurance carrier(?).
Euclid BaltACD Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing. That is not how it is done! Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross.Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted and gets notified by the crossing party that the identified trains have passed and is then given permission to cross the crossing.Dispatcher blocks off Control Points on either side of crossing until party reports the move has been completed and track is OK to resume traffic. These are not unusual requests and are handled in a routine matter. When you say, “Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross. Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted…” How short does the time interval between the dispatcher notification and the arrival of the train have to be before the dispatcher would not give permission to cross until after the train passes? I think the time interval should not be less than 30 minutes. If they want to make it less, then have the train prepared to stop if the crossing is blocked.
BaltACD Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing. That is not how it is done! Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross.Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted and gets notified by the crossing party that the identified trains have passed and is then given permission to cross the crossing.Dispatcher blocks off Control Points on either side of crossing until party reports the move has been completed and track is OK to resume traffic. These are not unusual requests and are handled in a routine matter.
Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing.
The point where the Dispatcher would absolutely tell someone to wait would be if traffic is past the last control point on either side of the crossing that is to be crossed. Dispatchers contol Control Points. While it is possible to notify trains to stop a location between control points and then restrict their further movement by train message; that is not the recommended procedure, except in an emergency.
Like all dispatching decisions it is dependent up the priority of traffic that is on the railroad, the HOS situation of the trains in the area, etc. etc.
The overriding rule of Train Dispatching is - PROTECT then authorize.
If you want or need railroad protection you will have to wait until the railroad can provide the protection; otherwise Halifax Road is the result.
In an ideal world with the movement of this 'modular electrical room'; the shipper, after getting the approved route for the device would contact the railroads that the device would cross and notify them of a anticipated itenarary and time frame for arrival at the affected crossings. The railroad(s) may have MofW personnel on scene to protect railroad interests and may request formal MofW track occupancy authority for protection of the move.
Done right, moving this kind of dimensional structure is not something that can be properly done 'on the cheap', as in addition to the truck & trailer moving the load there should have been at least two 'flag cars' accompanying the load - the leading flag car measuring clearance objects before OK'ing the load to move past them and a trailing 'flag car' to warn and prevent overtaking traffic from infringing on manouvering room should the load need to back up (which it did in this instance).
The movement of this load was botched from the word go.
I was a bit surprised to see that a State Trooper was providing the escort for an oversize movement. I'm not sure of what the law requires, but in the Chicago area, most oversize moves have private escorts, usually about two or three per move. There are several firms that provide this service.
Typical CYA.
OK, Suppose that I agree that the trooper is there to protect the public from the movement.
The company making the movement should be required to have its own escorts fore and aft, and they *should* be trained for all circumstances. North Dakota laws require this, but then we do not have all that many troopers to begin with, and the State Police are shut down at late night with nobody scheduled to be on duty other than to be on call. (mayhap the increase in oil activity has changed this over the past four years). Still, huge movements (270' tall wind towers with 100' long blades) all move without troopers. They have their own protection vehicles. And they have lots of radio antenas AND a tall mast that will warn of any low overhead that would strike the shipment.
One of the largest shipments ever on state roads was a pair of drying units for the ethanol plant here in Richardton. Once the parked these units, they built the building around them.
There MUST me a movement officer with all such movements and they must be in constant contact with authorities including railroads.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
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