Southern Railway ABS Signals

[wabash1]

MP173

I have enjoyed this discussion, although living hours away.  Wabash, thanks for your detailed info, as always. 

Growing up not too far from the line (near Olney) in the 1970's, I didnt spend too much time railfanning the line.  I did get to Mt. Vernon in 1978 (?) when 4501 came thru.  Also a few times at Centralia and once at Mt. Carmel.  I loved those Southern locomotives, particularly long hood forward .... classic.  Excuse me for foaming.

Wabash, it sounds as if the line is currently all track warrent except for Mt. Carmel/Princeton.  Spring switches allow you to leave the siding without closing the switch....correct?  You still must stop to throw the switch for entering the siding, or is there technology which allows it to be opened for you without leaving the locomotive?  Do spring switches present any problems with operations? (such as sticking open...how well do they operate in snow?)

In the excellent book Conrail Commodities, the author describes a coal movement from Mt Carmel to the Gibson power plant, a movement of perhaps 10-20 miles.  Is that still in operation?  It seemed as if it were almost a nonstop operation.  Is this the reason for the CTC?  Are there other coal movements on the line?  Any UP or BNSF coal trains? 

I found an old Southern Railway freight schedule book from the 70's and there were about 14 trains daily on the line.  Is that accurate for today?  Or has it increased? 

Not being too familar with the Mt. Vernon - Centralia line, what would be the reasoning for relocation?  That would be BIG $$$$.

Thanks,

ed

Let me see if i can answer these The coal trains from Keensburg to the power plant dont happen the mine closed due to union problems, no BNSF or UP trains at this time there is talk about a BN train, the CTC is only for the controll points this  is run on track authority still but affects the signals further away than the controll points.

Spring switches only allow for us to leave thru the switches with out lining them to enter the haft to be lined for your movement, they work great when maintained. and switch heaters in winter keep everything operating just fine.

It is hard to say how many trains but on a average 15 trains would be a good average for winter.  summer time is more.

[wabash1]

LOL Hey you mean your a fair weather rail fan now??? I know who you are most guys been asking where ya been and nobody knew. I dont remeber the wayne city incident . the Bomb incident is quite familar to me. then you remeber the 37 car derailment at sims ( east of wayne city) and i do my fair share of clearing trees 3 in one day, and we wont get into the car train and treaspasser incidents,

As far as the relocation that is someones perposal for what ever reason for us to use someone elses tracks . Not likely but he is some news for you, the railroad in that article evansville something railroad is to start interchanging a coal train with us at Mt. Vernon, also we are to go back to running trains down the IC tracks at centralia again , And the wiring for total CTC was layed at the same time they put the signals in back in 1985 or so. its there if the need arises then they can do it. I prefer not to as I think it is safer running abs and track authority, We have not had a train wreck yet with this system but it happens regular on CTC areas.

[MP173]

I have enjoyed this discussion, although living hours away.  Wabash, thanks for your detailed info, as always. 

Growing up not too far from the line (near Olney) in the 1970's, I didnt spend too much time railfanning the line.  I did get to Mt. Vernon in 1978 (?) when 4501 came thru.  Also a few times at Centralia and once at Mt. Carmel.  I loved those Southern locomotives, particularly long hood forward .... classic.  Excuse me for foaming.

Wabash, it sounds as if the line is currently all track warrent except for Mt. Carmel/Princeton.  Spring switches allow you to leave the siding without closing the switch....correct?  You still must stop to throw the switch for entering the siding, or is there technology which allows it to be opened for you without leaving the locomotive?  Do spring switches present any problems with operations? (such as sticking open...how well do they operate in snow?)

In the excellent book Conrail Commodities, the author describes a coal movement from Mt Carmel to the Gibson power plant, a movement of perhaps 10-20 miles.  Is that still in operation?  It seemed as if it were almost a nonstop operation.  Is this the reason for the CTC?  Are there other coal movements on the line?  Any UP or BNSF coal trains? 

I found an old Southern Railway freight schedule book from the 70's and there were about 14 trains daily on the line.  Is that accurate for today?  Or has it increased? 

Not being too familar with the Mt. Vernon - Centralia line, what would be the reasoning for relocation?  That would be BIG $$$$.

Thanks,

ed

[nscsxcrrailfan]

First of all, thank you very much for answering all of my questions. I've wondered about these questions for quite a while. I used to railfan this line quite a bit when I was in High School. However, I am rarely near the tracks any more. Used to, back in the "old days," one could railfan and enjoy the country without having to worry about anything, but any more it is not like that. In the past 2 or 3 years, there have been enough incidents on this line (car-train incidents, run-away grain car Wayne City, bomb on the track in 2005/2006, falling trees, etc...) where I have decided that it is too risky to be around the tracks for my own safety. I try to enjoy watching trains from a distance, just driving by. Not only that, but I am increasingly more busy with my personal llfe and have very little time to be trackside. I don't know if you'll have an answer to these questions, but I hear several rumors about this line. Do you know anything about a possible line relocation from Mt. Vernon, IL to Centralia, IL? Also, what's the chances of this line going 100% CTC? There's an article in the Mt. Vernon Register that you might be interested in, here's the link: http://www.register-news.com/archivesearch/local_story_356211539.html Thanks.

[wabash1]

LOL I dont railfan it. I am a Engineer on this line, Golden gate siding is what you describing to me, but moon is set up the same .

1) yes it is positive but the rules are set as to allow me by this signal when certain conditions are met. I wont get into those rules at this time.

2) the dwarf signal will only go red over green because it is a diverging route. going from siding to main

3) that is a dwarf signal also but becase the positive block signal ( the 2 head main signal with the red on bottom) is past siding switch and controls the block past the siding, its indications are stop and restricting ( the yellow only)  those signal protects you from going infront of main line movements that may not have got a restricting at the other end of the siding.

4) Yes this is a new ctc and is wired in conjuction with the abs system, this is run now from princeton to mount carmel, If they clear a train at mount carmel it throws stop signals all the way to simpson. even if there is no train.  this was installed to help coal trains in and out of CB jct, and in and out of the new mine at gibson north of princeton.

5 & 6 I know where they crossed but i have no idea what signals was used

7) the SS stands for Spring Switch marker that Green and Red light indicating switch point alignment.

I hope this helps answer your question, Now i have a question for you. and you can pm me with the answer, and for the others who think im foamer unfriendly, There is 7 foamers on this line and they are the perfect railfans they dont get in the way they dont vandalize and most generally dont treaspass. I just wonder which car or truck you drive and a little discription of you so i can introduce myself to you next time. the foamers that I have had trouble with are in princeton.

[nscsxcrrailfan]

Wabash1, I think I understand what you're saying. You've answered a couple other questions I've posted before on this forum, so do you work for NS on this line or do you railfan it? Also, because you seem to know a lot about it, I have several other questions for you. So, the lower Red light on the signal indicates a Stop signal not a Restricting signal, there is no possibility of going past it if it is Red over Red. My First question is about the same dwarf signal that I asked about earlier. I'm still a little unclear about itl. I've noticed that when a train is coming on the main towards the siding that the main signal is Red over Red (I understand what this means) and the dwarf is Red only, which makes sense as a train on the siding would not be able to leave with the main ahead occupied. Now, once the train passes by on the main, the Dwarf signal eventually goes back to Red and Green. If the main ahead is clear, then why doesn't the dwarf just go to Green only? Does it have to do with the siding turnout switched against the siding? My Second question is, that I've noticed that at the ends of the sidings there is a dwarf signal like I described but at the other end of those sidings there is a two-light dwarf signal that stays Yellow most of the time. I think the other indicator might be red, but I've never seen it lit. What is the purpose of this signal? My Third question, I drove through Mt. Carmel about a year ago and noticed what appeared to be brand new CTC signals there. They had two signal heads on one pole pointed in each direction with the signal cabinet mounted directly to the signal pole. Are those CTC signals or just new signals wired up for ABS? My Fourth question, the Indiana Hi-Rail (ex. IC) used to cross this NS line at Browns, Illinois. Do you know what kind of signals governed the diamond there before the IHRC removed the tracks there? My Fifth question, the B&O used to cross this NS line in my hometown of Fairfield, Illinois. Do you know what kind of signals governed the diamond here or what kind of rules were observed at this crossing? My Final question, at each siding there is a sign that says SS. A friend of mine thought it meant Siding Switch. Then, he told me that he heard it means Spring Switch. A timetable for this line that I have says SS means Signaled Siding. What does SS mean?

[wabash1]

Deggesty

wabash1

Now your second question is the signal is a dwarf and the red and green mean diverging clear the yellow is diverging approach. this is the indication for leaving the siding. once your rear gets on the main you can accelerate to track speed. if diverging clear. when no trains are around the track is ok the signals should be all green for clear.

And diverging approach would indicate that you can expect the next signal to be at stop, but the train ahead of you could have cleared that block, also, and you would possibly have another approach signal at the beginning of the next block.

Johnny

Not sure what your getting at, but Yes the next signal could be a stop is what the term applies to but that wont be the case, if 2 trains leaving the siding the first is running on clears when i leave im leaving on a diverging approach. by the time i get my train out of the siding ( the siding he is talking about is 20 mph turn out )  and travel to next signal at no more than 30 mph  the train in front of me is running 50 mph, and will be 8 miles down the road and i will have a clear at the next signal.

On this territory the signal system is basic and easy ( the way southern did it)   we dont have alot of indications  green go  yellow slow down red go real slow and 2 reds get the deck of cards out. or stop.  The positive signals are protecting siding switches and interlockings.

[Deggesty]

wabash1

Now your second question is the signal is a dwarf and the red and green mean diverging clear the yellow is diverging approach. this is the indication for leaving the siding. once your rear gets on the main you can accelerate to track speed. if diverging clear. when no trains are around the track is ok the signals should be all green for clear.

And diverging approach would indicate that you can expect the next signal to be at stop, but the train ahead of you could have cleared that block, also, and you would possibly have another approach signal at the beginning of the next block.

Johnny

[wabash1]

nscsxcrrailfan

I have 2 questions about Southern Railway ABS signals that I have been wondering about for probably 10 years. Unfortunately, I have a picture of the signal that I have a question about, but I don't know how to upload it on here, so I'll describe it. Along the NS St. Louis-Louisville line, there are ABS signals with three individual lights, green, yellow, and red. They are Not like the signals on the old CNO&TP line. All of the sidings are manually controlled. At the end of every siding where the siding merges back into the main, there is a signal with no number board, with a signal head containing three lenses (green, yellow, & red) and below that is a second signal head with only one lens (red). My first question is, what is the purpose of the second, lower signal head? Is it for the siding? To help demonstrate what I'm talking about, this is sort of what it looks like: X Green X Yellow X Red X Red *Also, I have never seen the Red light go off, even when trains are entering or leaving the siding. Second Question: On some ends of the sidings on this line, there is a three light dwarf signal for the siding that is very unusual. It is for trains leaving the siding entering the main, Not trains leaving the main for the siding. It's color pattern is Red, Green, then Yellow. When there are no trains around, it is lit Red & Green, both lights are on. It looks like this: X Red (On) X Green (On) X Yellow I have never seen any signal with both the Red and Green lit at the same time. What could be the purpose of this signal? Thanks.

 

To answer your first question That signal means it is a positive signal it never goes out ( unless the bulb burns out) it is for the main and indicates a positive block .  when you have the top aspect showing red it means stop.

Now your second question is the signal is a dwarf and the red and green mean diverging clear the yellow is diverging approach. this is the indication for leaving the siding. once your rear gets on the main you can accelerate to track speed. if diverging clear. when no trains are around the track is ok the signals should be all green for clear.

[nscsxcrrailfan]

I have 2 questions about Southern Railway ABS signals that I have been wondering about for probably 10 years. Unfortunately, I have a picture of the signal that I have a question about, but I don't know how to upload it on here, so I'll describe it. Along the NS St. Louis-Louisville line, there are ABS signals with three individual lights, green, yellow, and red. They are Not like the signals on the old CNO&TP line. All of the sidings are manually controlled. At the end of every siding where the siding merges back into the main, there is a signal with no number board, with a signal head containing three lenses (green, yellow, & red) and below that is a second signal head with only one lens (red). My first question is, what is the purpose of the second, lower signal head? Is it for the siding? To help demonstrate what I'm talking about, this is sort of what it looks like: X Green X Yellow X Red X Red *Also, I have never seen the Red light go off, even when trains are entering or leaving the siding. Second Question: On some ends of the sidings on this line, there is a three light dwarf signal for the siding that is very unusual. It is for trains leaving the siding entering the main, Not trains leaving the main for the siding. It's color pattern is Red, Green, then Yellow. When there are no trains around, it is lit Red & Green, both lights are on. It looks like this: X Red (On) X Green (On) X Yellow I have never seen any signal with both the Red and Green lit at the same time. What could be the purpose of this signal? Thanks.