nscsxcrrailfanI have 2 questions about Southern Railway ABS signals that I have been wondering about for probably 10 years. Unfortunately, I have a picture of the signal that I have a question about, but I don't know how to upload it on here, so I'll describe it. Along the NS St. Louis-Louisville line, there are ABS signals with three individual lights, green, yellow, and red. They are Not like the signals on the old CNO&TP line. All of the sidings are manually controlled. At the end of every siding where the siding merges back into the main, there is a signal with no number board, with a signal head containing three lenses (green, yellow, & red) and below that is a second signal head with only one lens (red). My first question is, what is the purpose of the second, lower signal head? Is it for the siding? To help demonstrate what I'm talking about, this is sort of what it looks like: X Green X Yellow X Red X Red *Also, I have never seen the Red light go off, even when trains are entering or leaving the siding. Second Question: On some ends of the sidings on this line, there is a three light dwarf signal for the siding that is very unusual. It is for trains leaving the siding entering the main, Not trains leaving the main for the siding. It's color pattern is Red, Green, then Yellow. When there are no trains around, it is lit Red & Green, both lights are on. It looks like this: X Red (On) X Green (On) X Yellow I have never seen any signal with both the Red and Green lit at the same time. What could be the purpose of this signal? Thanks.
To answer your first question That signal means it is a positive signal it never goes out ( unless the bulb burns out) it is for the main and indicates a positive block . when you have the top aspect showing red it means stop.
Now your second question is the signal is a dwarf and the red and green mean diverging clear the yellow is diverging approach. this is the indication for leaving the siding. once your rear gets on the main you can accelerate to track speed. if diverging clear. when no trains are around the track is ok the signals should be all green for clear.
wabash1Now your second question is the signal is a dwarf and the red and green mean diverging clear the yellow is diverging approach. this is the indication for leaving the siding. once your rear gets on the main you can accelerate to track speed. if diverging clear. when no trains are around the track is ok the signals should be all green for clear.
And diverging approach would indicate that you can expect the next signal to be at stop, but the train ahead of you could have cleared that block, also, and you would possibly have another approach signal at the beginning of the next block.
Johnny
Deggesty wabash1Now your second question is the signal is a dwarf and the red and green mean diverging clear the yellow is diverging approach. this is the indication for leaving the siding. once your rear gets on the main you can accelerate to track speed. if diverging clear. when no trains are around the track is ok the signals should be all green for clear. And diverging approach would indicate that you can expect the next signal to be at stop, but the train ahead of you could have cleared that block, also, and you would possibly have another approach signal at the beginning of the next block. Johnny
Not sure what your getting at, but Yes the next signal could be a stop is what the term applies to but that wont be the case, if 2 trains leaving the siding the first is running on clears when i leave im leaving on a diverging approach. by the time i get my train out of the siding ( the siding he is talking about is 20 mph turn out ) and travel to next signal at no more than 30 mph the train in front of me is running 50 mph, and will be 8 miles down the road and i will have a clear at the next signal.
On this territory the signal system is basic and easy ( the way southern did it) we dont have alot of indications green go yellow slow down red go real slow and 2 reds get the deck of cards out. or stop. The positive signals are protecting siding switches and interlockings.
LOL I dont railfan it. I am a Engineer on this line, Golden gate siding is what you describing to me, but moon is set up the same .
1) yes it is positive but the rules are set as to allow me by this signal when certain conditions are met. I wont get into those rules at this time.
2) the dwarf signal will only go red over green because it is a diverging route. going from siding to main
3) that is a dwarf signal also but becase the positive block signal ( the 2 head main signal with the red on bottom) is past siding switch and controls the block past the siding, its indications are stop and restricting ( the yellow only) those signal protects you from going infront of main line movements that may not have got a restricting at the other end of the siding.
4) Yes this is a new ctc and is wired in conjuction with the abs system, this is run now from princeton to mount carmel, If they clear a train at mount carmel it throws stop signals all the way to simpson. even if there is no train. this was installed to help coal trains in and out of CB jct, and in and out of the new mine at gibson north of princeton.
5 & 6 I know where they crossed but i have no idea what signals was used
7) the SS stands for Spring Switch marker that Green and Red light indicating switch point alignment.
I hope this helps answer your question, Now i have a question for you. and you can pm me with the answer, and for the others who think im foamer unfriendly, There is 7 foamers on this line and they are the perfect railfans they dont get in the way they dont vandalize and most generally dont treaspass. I just wonder which car or truck you drive and a little discription of you so i can introduce myself to you next time. the foamers that I have had trouble with are in princeton.
I have enjoyed this discussion, although living hours away. Wabash, thanks for your detailed info, as always.
Growing up not too far from the line (near Olney) in the 1970's, I didnt spend too much time railfanning the line. I did get to Mt. Vernon in 1978 (?) when 4501 came thru. Also a few times at Centralia and once at Mt. Carmel. I loved those Southern locomotives, particularly long hood forward .... classic. Excuse me for foaming.
Wabash, it sounds as if the line is currently all track warrent except for Mt. Carmel/Princeton. Spring switches allow you to leave the siding without closing the switch....correct? You still must stop to throw the switch for entering the siding, or is there technology which allows it to be opened for you without leaving the locomotive? Do spring switches present any problems with operations? (such as sticking open...how well do they operate in snow?)
In the excellent book Conrail Commodities, the author describes a coal movement from Mt Carmel to the Gibson power plant, a movement of perhaps 10-20 miles. Is that still in operation? It seemed as if it were almost a nonstop operation. Is this the reason for the CTC? Are there other coal movements on the line? Any UP or BNSF coal trains?
I found an old Southern Railway freight schedule book from the 70's and there were about 14 trains daily on the line. Is that accurate for today? Or has it increased?
Not being too familar with the Mt. Vernon - Centralia line, what would be the reasoning for relocation? That would be BIG $$$$.
Thanks,
ed
LOL Hey you mean your a fair weather rail fan now??? I know who you are most guys been asking where ya been and nobody knew. I dont remeber the wayne city incident . the Bomb incident is quite familar to me. then you remeber the 37 car derailment at sims ( east of wayne city) and i do my fair share of clearing trees 3 in one day, and we wont get into the car train and treaspasser incidents,
As far as the relocation that is someones perposal for what ever reason for us to use someone elses tracks . Not likely but he is some news for you, the railroad in that article evansville something railroad is to start interchanging a coal train with us at Mt. Vernon, also we are to go back to running trains down the IC tracks at centralia again , And the wiring for total CTC was layed at the same time they put the signals in back in 1985 or so. its there if the need arises then they can do it. I prefer not to as I think it is safer running abs and track authority, We have not had a train wreck yet with this system but it happens regular on CTC areas.
MP173 I have enjoyed this discussion, although living hours away. Wabash, thanks for your detailed info, as always. Growing up not too far from the line (near Olney) in the 1970's, I didnt spend too much time railfanning the line. I did get to Mt. Vernon in 1978 (?) when 4501 came thru. Also a few times at Centralia and once at Mt. Carmel. I loved those Southern locomotives, particularly long hood forward .... classic. Excuse me for foaming. Wabash, it sounds as if the line is currently all track warrent except for Mt. Carmel/Princeton. Spring switches allow you to leave the siding without closing the switch....correct? You still must stop to throw the switch for entering the siding, or is there technology which allows it to be opened for you without leaving the locomotive? Do spring switches present any problems with operations? (such as sticking open...how well do they operate in snow?) In the excellent book Conrail Commodities, the author describes a coal movement from Mt Carmel to the Gibson power plant, a movement of perhaps 10-20 miles. Is that still in operation? It seemed as if it were almost a nonstop operation. Is this the reason for the CTC? Are there other coal movements on the line? Any UP or BNSF coal trains? I found an old Southern Railway freight schedule book from the 70's and there were about 14 trains daily on the line. Is that accurate for today? Or has it increased? Not being too familar with the Mt. Vernon - Centralia line, what would be the reasoning for relocation? That would be BIG $$$$. Thanks, ed
Let me see if i can answer these The coal trains from Keensburg to the power plant dont happen the mine closed due to union problems, no BNSF or UP trains at this time there is talk about a BN train, the CTC is only for the controll points this is run on track authority still but affects the signals further away than the controll points.
Spring switches only allow for us to leave thru the switches with out lining them to enter the haft to be lined for your movement, they work great when maintained. and switch heaters in winter keep everything operating just fine.
It is hard to say how many trains but on a average 15 trains would be a good average for winter. summer time is more.
nscsxcrrailfanYou mentioned that you prefer not to have CTC, which is understandable considering the wrecks CN/IC has had under CTC. I can't remember when it was, but I remember hearing about a major wreck down in Mississippi on CN due to a CTC fault. I remember it because a friend of mine owns a model of IC 1006, and he was mad because it was one of the units that was totaled out. I'm only a beginner on understanding signal systems, but from what I've heard, don't most CTC systems have ABS built in, so that if the dispatcher makes an error the system will automatically override him/her? Also, just in case you're wondering why I'm so interested in signals, it's because I'm wiring up one for my N scale layout. I'm using the Atlas signal system and instead of using Tortoise switch machines, I'm using regular ground throws that I've modified with a resistor to throw the signals to Red anytime the turnout is switched.
The system has a built in timer so he can not drop your signal and just give it to another train. that is a FRA rule also. My reason is i want to know in writting how far im going not just running til im stopped by a stop signal, and not knowing if its a track problem or waiting on a meet
"Not sure what your getting at, but Yes the next signal could be a stop is what the term applies to but that wont be the case, if 2 trains leaving the siding the first is running on clears when i leave im leaving on a diverging approach. by the time i get my train out of the siding ( the siding he is talking about is 20 mph turn out ) and travel to next signal at no more than 30 mph the train in front of me is running 50 mph, and will be 8 miles down the road and i will have a clear at the next signal."
I sure hope you were trying to simplify your scenario of two trains leaving a siding for the sake of this discussion and this is not how you operate. Approach means just that, be prepared to stop at the next signal. Never assume it will be clear. Might have to have a talk with your red block committeeman.
nscsxcrrailfan I'm only a beginner on understanding signal systems, but from what I've heard, don't most CTC systems have ABS built in, so that if the dispatcher makes an error the system will automatically override him/her? .
CTC is a nothing more than an overlay on ABS that enables the dispatcher to request priority of train movement and select route. If, and only if, the dispatcher's request does not create an unsafe condition, the ABS system will grant the priority or route. If you try to click on the dispatching screen to do something that is unsafe or not permitted, the screen won't even accept the command -- the request will never make it past the console and into the field. Similarly on the old relay consoles you could throw a switch lever, but when you pushed the initiation button to send the command to the field nothing would happen. There is no such thing as a CTC system that does not have an ABS system underneath it.
However, a dispatcher can defeat the safety checks of the ABS system with verbal instructions, for example, verbally authorizing a train to pass a signal displaying stop, and into the path of an approaching train, or authorizing a man to take a switch out of power and handthrow it on the main track in the path of an approaching train, and so forth. And on occasion dispatchers make such errors, and cause damage to property or injury to employees, but such an error with actual consequences happens less often than some imagine. Yet it does happen -- when I was in dispatcher training we were shown film of a head-on collision with multiple fatalities caused by a dispatcher, in the hope it would put the fear of God into us.
RWM
I am not sure of what your getting at but lets break it down, Approach means procede to next signal prepared to stop train or engine exceeding medium speed must at once reduce to that speed. and medium speed is a speed not exceeding 30 mph.
So In above move Im leaving on a diverging approach signal at a speed thru turn out at no more than 20 mph. and straight up hill. the next signal is 2.3 miles away the other train is running by now 45 mph ( on a speed restricted curve) he gets out of curve and is going down hill in dynamic holding at 50 mph. and does this for 3.4 miles he is now 7 miles past the siding and approaching the next siding, on clears, My train just gets out of the siding and heads for the first down hill and the next signal , as we round the curve at 15-20 mph we look 1/2 mile down the track and see the signal and its indication which is a clear and we let the train go. pretty simple, all in the rule book.
Now to simplify it further there is no way you can get a stop signal at the next signal. and just becasue it may be red does not mean you haft to stop. and just because i said i have a clear doesnt mean thats the case. in what you stated You seem to have me running 50 mph on a approach block running by a stop signal ( or maybe im reading more into it than was intended) As far as assumng I assume alot of things thats not what i act on.
Now What i posted was a way that is leagle to leave the siding but what good does it do to run on approach blocks from 1 signal to the next. what i do is wait til the signal goes diverging clear then leave then i dont haft to wait and see what my next signal might be and i know that train ahead of me gets a good jump so i dont haft to run slow.
I have no idea what a red block commetteman is we dont even have a stop block commette. or man or woman. I have never got past a stop signal ive went past a few improper displayed signals but no stops.
Without knowing anything about this line - and acknowledging that the following do not specifically address or cover either former Southern Rwy. or NS signals - nevertheless the following website and web pages by Carsten S. Lundsten may be helpful:
"North American Signaling" at - http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/index.html
"ABS, Interlocking and TCS/CTC basics" at - http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/signalbasics/
"ATSF double track Automatic Block Signaling - Example of ABS behavior", at - http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/abs_dt_atsf/index.html#Example
Al Krug's "Railroad Signals" webpage at - http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/signals/signals.htm
- Paul North.
nscsxcrrailfanWabash1, I have another question for you. A couple of friends of mine were over today, and we were talking about the Evansville Western Coal train interchange at Mt. Vernon that you said is supposed to start soon. Where is the interchange in Mt. Vernon going to be taking place exactly? Where does NS and EVWR trackage link up (interchange)?
LOL Some where in Mt. vernon is a siding and a conection track in which we will meet these people and make a transfer. they might re-lay track back behind the scrap yard and to the north of that loco rebuild shop. are old yard does go back there towards their railroad but it needs work, other than that I can say I dont know, Now the trainmaster said the tracks are there all we haft to do is start interchanging, well if that is the case they must have them hid to keep vandalism down.
No that trackage at the scrap yard belongs to us, that is are old yard. they own the wye track thru the scrap yard but the rest belongs to ns.
Wayne city I know nothing about it but it wont take long to find out. If the local was working wayne city the signal at moon would have been clear and when he got to sims it would have been approach and at 105 it would have been restricting if the local was still on the main, The only reason I can think of to hold the man at moon is to give the local at wayne city a work between to run around his train, and to do that they would back the thru frieght authority up to hold at moon, I can tell you this I Know that crew on the local and they would not get hit.
Back in 1977(?) or so, Southern ran their 4501 and wyed it thru a junkyard (looking at the photo now). If memory isnt failing me...it was in Mt. Vernon.
Looking at the Wikimapia, it appears the EVWR runs in from the SE (ex L&N line), adjacent to the old Precision National Locomotive. Wiki shows that as National Railway Equipment. Is it still in business?
Further, it appears there is a wye at the SE edge of the Mt. Vernon HS. Is that the scrapyard? If so, and if that is the spot back in 1977 the 4501 wyed....it wasnt in very good shape then, they literally walked the 4501 thru the wye.
Further, I have a couple of photos from the same day of a NB MoPac catching orders at the diamond (Southern?) with an operator standing trackside. I didnt have any interest in the architecture that day, only the train and didnt include the train order office in the shot, except for a slight angle. It appears the TO office was a prefab unit Would that have been correct?
Interchange tracks between Southern and MoPac at SW and NE quadrants. Back in the day, Sou/MoPac ran a daily Chicago - Jacksonville hotshot which would have turned east at that wye.
What a combo Southern/MoPac would have been.
Oh, almost forgot...where is the coal off of EVWR destined to? Is it going to be a regular move?
nscsxcrrailfanThat's good to hear, I thought about the other two signals, but I assumed that if any turnout between Moon and the UP diamond was thrown it would drop all the signals to red because there is no passing siding through there. I'm glad to hear that NS owns the interchange tracks, not the scrap facility. I'm not positive about this, but I don't think the NS track is connected into the EVWR, but it would be very easy to connect the two because the NS track at least goes right up to the EVWR track. Then again, maybe I'm missing it because if it hasn't been used in years it could just be so overgrown and buried in the mud that we just aren't seeing it. Earlier, we were talking about the two light dwarf signal at the West end of Golden Gate and the East end of Moon Siding. I looked at the ATSF signal system they used for one-directional running, and I understand that it serves a purpose of keeping a train on the siding from pulling out in front of one on the main. My question is, if NS is concerned about a Westbound on the siding pulling out in front of a Westbound on the main, why are they not concerned about an Eastbound on the siding pulling out in front of an Eastbound on the main as the three light dwarf shows occupancy of the main ahead, not the main beside the siding? Also, how does the diamond at Mt. Vernon work? Is it tied into the UP signal system or independent?
The signal would not let the train leave in front of a train on the main, it would be red for stop. Now dont get confused here if a train in the siding has a diverging clear gets a track authority to leave and is supposed to leave infront of a train comming down the main, either the dispatcher will contact that train or if the signal is red the conductor must go to the box, on the bungalo and push the button to start time. in starting the time this drops all signals red for stop. Its not hard to learn. just haft to be around it and work with it for about a week and you should master it.
MP173 Back in 1977(?) or so, Southern ran their 4501 and wyed it thru a junkyard (looking at the photo now). If memory isnt failing me...it was in Mt. Vernon. Looking at the Wikimapia, it appears the EVWR runs in from the SE (ex L&N line), adjacent to the old Precision National Locomotive. Wiki shows that as National Railway Equipment. Is it still in business? Further, it appears there is a wye at the SE edge of the Mt. Vernon HS. Is that the scrapyard? If so, and if that is the spot back in 1977 the 4501 wyed....it wasnt in very good shape then, they literally walked the 4501 thru the wye. Further, I have a couple of photos from the same day of a NB MoPac catching orders at the diamond (Southern?) with an operator standing trackside. I didnt have any interest in the architecture that day, only the train and didnt include the train order office in the shot, except for a slight angle. It appears the TO office was a prefab unit Would that have been correct? Interchange tracks between Southern and MoPac at SW and NE quadrants. Back in the day, Sou/MoPac ran a daily Chicago - Jacksonville hotshot which would have turned east at that wye. What a combo Southern/MoPac would have been. Oh, almost forgot...where is the coal off of EVWR destined to? Is it going to be a regular move? ed
that is the scrap yard in question and the ns rail fan aswered most of the questions. That office is the Union Pacific office and we use to interchange a coal train their to . that building is pre fab and closed now. the interlocking was manned and a very very cute operator worked there. kinda remind you of miranda lambert, ( wait back to railroading before thread gets locked) now that is a automatic interlocking. the train will go back to Gibson Generating plant to empty, Not sure where its going to load somewhere in southern illinois,
Well not sure anymore if i Miss 4501 or not. If i was standing to the side and watching it go by ok but not wanting to work it.
it has been sometime since i looked back there at those tracks as I dont work the local so i dont know the condition of them.but like you stated it wont take long to get them up and usable.
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