Southern Railway ABS Signals

[MP173]

thanks for info.  Fascinating story of short haul coal.  From what I gather, the coal mine built the spur also.

ed

[wabash1]

the keensburg mine only did 1 train a day of 75 cars, the main trains came from black beauty mine fransisco,IN  and 1 from the charger mine , then on weekends we sent a train to the A&S to give the UP and run south to load coal and come back, ( no i am not sure where over there it went) then we had a train load at princeton and go to the plant.

Yes we go over top of the CN tracks at blueford, It dont matter who tracks or what direction is best that evansville outfit has the contract to bring us the coal and we will deliver it from there. Sorry to be short about it, and dont mean to be but i dont know where the other railroad goes or the mine it will come from, as i find out more i will report more Oh and this was handled by the power plant and the mine we didnt get alot to say about it.

[nscsxcrrailfan]

MP173, it would make more sense to build a connection at Bluford, however NS goes over the IC on a bridge, about 30 feet above the IC, and the IC is undercut below ground level. Therefore, a connection there would be very difficult to build. Wabash1, so there'll be NS locomotives traveling up and down the EVWR main. That will be a really interesting sight to see. Do you think they will reinstall the signals from Mt. Vernon to to the mine or just operate on track warrants? Also, I don't think you mentioned this, but will the train have NS crew at all times or will EVWR crew operate the NS locomotives? The CSX story is interesting, however I'm a little confused on where they were trying to build a wye at, was it at Mt. Vernon or Princeton?

[MP173]

Ok, I have re-read this thread.  So, what you are saying is that the Gibson Power Plant is no longer receiving coal from Keensburg due to the mine closing.  Where is the coal now coming from?  If I recall, that is a pretty large power plant.

Are you saying the coal will come from the new mine at Macedonia, which is actually adjacent to the CN tracks and that a new rail spur will be built from McLeansboro to reach that mine?  Wouldnt it be easier to build a connector track at Bluford?  Do the NS tracks run above the CN at that point? 

How frequently will the coal trains move on this line (daily?)?

Will CN be handling coal out the mine also?  Interesting discussion. 

Ed

[wabash1]

The train will run with NS power at all times the main line for the dump stays charged at all times this helps keep trouble from happening. The CSX also thought they would run on our trackage at one time they was going to load a train then bring it over and come on are tracks and go to the power plant we said no you aint, they was building the wye and was going to force us to give them trackage rights we again said no, Now there is a loading facility built and we load the coal and haul it ourselves.

Mileage and speed is not a issue with these trains the hoppers are full and 2 million tons on the ground. and 5-7 100 car trains a day in the plant, the other trains will end up going to southern indiana. The carrier has spent a few million on track to increase speed on the old spur tracks. and with more coal buisness the other part of the line that sees steel trains will be fixed for sidings and the bridges replaced and crossing fixed for coal trains

[MJChittick]

nscsxcrrailfan

This link shows the new Savatran rail spur that connects in with CN and the Sugar Camp Energy mine, which is where I think the coal will likely be coming from, considering the fact that this new line is just being installed at the time when NS and EVWR are going to begin interchanging a coal train; wikipedia stated: "Construction on this new line commenced during March 2009 and was originally scheduled to conclude by the following December." Here's the link:

http://www.mvs.usace.army.mil/permits/pn/P-2681.pdf

[nscsxcrrailfan]

This link shows the new Savatran rail spur that connects in with CN and the Sugar Camp Energy mine, which is where I think the coal will likely be coming from, considering the fact that this new line is just being installed at the time when NS and EVWR are going to begin interchanging a coal train; wikipedia stated: "Construction on this new line commenced during March 2009 and was originally scheduled to conclude by the following December." Here's the link: http://www.mvs.usace.army.mil/permits/pn/P-2681.pdf (You'll need a PDF reader to open it.)

[nscsxcrrailfan]

At first, I thought it might be better and faster if they took the coal train from the Sugar Camp Energy Mine (which is where I think it will be coming from) over to Howell Yard and then north to Princeton and over to the Gibson Generating Plant, however that route is longer and slower than the EVWR-NS interchange. The main reason is that the EVWR line goes farther South than I thought, and the speed limits on it (dark territory to Mt. Vernon, IN) are likely around 20 or 25 MPH all the way to Howell Yard. The speed limits on CSX on the Bi-Pass and north to Princeton are likely to be 50-60 MPH, but Princeton would slow things down once again as the train would have to switch over to NS from CSX. With the NS-EVWR interchange, once the train gets out of Mt. Vernon and heads east on the NS main it can speed up to 50 MPH for most of the way to the Gibson Plant. I used Google Earth and it revealed that the NS-EVWR route is about 101 miles, whereas the EVWR-CSX-NS route would have been 116 miles, with a very long section of un-signaled EVWR track. In addition, the EVWR track has more curves than the NS main. Therefore, the best solution is to route the train through Mt. Vernon, IL. *Also... Wabash1, you said the train will run with NS power. Will it run with NS power even on the EVWR, or just from Mt. Vernon, IL-Gibson Plant?

[wabash1]

There is no differance than us going thru town and blocking all crossings and the UP blocking all crossings. and as far as swapping goes it will run with our power and when we take our train back we are ready to go, And the train goes to gibson not east Mt.Carmel. East mount carmel is about gone.

And as far as the local goes there is no problem that i know of the signal at 105 would be red if train is on tracks ahead. i havent heard any thing form the guys working that day everything is just like normal. 

[nscsxcrrailfan]

Wabash1, something else I forgot to mention in my previous post, I made a mistake in my previous post about the Wayne City incident. The signal at West Moon was green like I said AND the signal at 105 was green also, which is the reason why the dispatcher became very upset. Therefore, either the crew closed all of the turnouts there or the system malfunctioned. He told me the one at Moon was green and the one at 105 was green, but for some reason I forgot about him mentioning 105.

[nscsxcrrailfan]

Another thing that I thought about that is really going to make Mt. Vernon MAD is the fact that when NS and EVWR interchange the coal train, unless a new interchange is built between the NS near the Mt. Vernon Airport and the EVWR, EVWR will have to pull the coal train all the way through Mt. Vernon, blocking every crossing including Broadway and Main, to clear the interchange turnout so that NS can hook on to it and take it east. That is going to irritate Mt. Vernon even more considering the fact that currently, the EVWR crossing on Main and Broadway only sees 1-2 trains a day, and most of those are very short. Also, I found some interesting information on wikipedia that is interesting: "A new 14.6 mi (23.5 km) railroad line, known as the 'Savatran Rail Spur', is also planned and expected to run from Delafield (near McLeansboro) then through Macedonia, Illinois before terminating with a loading loop north of the Akin Junction on CN's existing Edgewood Cutoff line, thus giving the Evansville Western railroad interchange access to the Canadian National.[4] Construction on this new line commenced during March 2009 and was originally scheduled to conclude by the following December.[5] When the new spur connector is finished, it will facilitate more commodities traffic via connection with the CN and it will serve the new Sugar Camp Energy coal mine under construction north of Akin that is being developed by Williamson Energy Development, a subsidiary of West Virginia-based Cline Group, on reserves leased from Natural Resource Partners, L.P" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evansville_Western_Railway). That is probably where the coal will be coming from, and because it is going to the power plant at East Mt. Carmel, that is why it's going to Mt. Vernon and over to Mt. Carmel instead of to Evansville over CSX.

[wabash1]

it has been sometime since i looked back there at those tracks as I dont work the local so i dont know the condition of them.but like you stated it wont take long to get them up and usable.

[nscsxcrrailfan]

I drove to Mt. Vernon today and drove over the crossing where the NS interchange tracks should link up with EVWR. I drove over the crossing just south of the Mt. Vernon School. The interchange tracks to the east of the grade crossing are still in place and used. I saw an ACF Centerflow sitting on it. To the west of the grade crossing, the interchange track is buried in the mud with weeds covering it. It appears as if it is disconnected from the EVWR line. Not only that, but the rails on the grade crossing are paved over and there is only 1 track (EVWR main) to cross. Unless there is another connection somewhere that I'm missing, then NS and EVWR will have to re-install the interchange, which won't be very hard.

[wabash1]

MP173

Back in 1977(?) or so, Southern ran their 4501 and wyed it thru a junkyard (looking at the photo now).  If memory isnt failing me...it was in Mt. Vernon. 

Looking at the Wikimapia, it appears the EVWR runs in from the SE (ex L&N line), adjacent to the old Precision National Locomotive.  Wiki shows that as National Railway Equipment.  Is it still in business? 

Further, it appears there is a wye at the SE edge of the Mt. Vernon HS.  Is that the scrapyard?  If so, and if that is the spot back in 1977 the 4501 wyed....it wasnt in very good shape then, they literally walked the 4501 thru the wye. 

Further, I have a couple of photos from the same day of a NB MoPac catching orders at the diamond (Southern?) with an operator standing trackside.  I didnt have any interest in the architecture that day, only the train and didnt include the train order office in the shot, except for a slight angle.  It appears the TO office was a prefab unit   Would that have been correct?

Interchange tracks between Southern and MoPac at SW and NE quadrants.  Back in the day, Sou/MoPac ran a daily Chicago - Jacksonville hotshot which would have turned east at that wye.

What a combo Southern/MoPac would have been. 

Oh, almost forgot...where is the coal off of EVWR destined to?  Is it going to be a regular move?

ed

that is the scrap yard in question and the ns rail fan aswered most of the questions. That office is the Union Pacific office and we use to interchange a coal train their to . that building is pre fab and closed now. the interlocking was manned and a very very cute operator worked there. kinda remind you of miranda lambert, ( wait back to railroading before thread gets locked) now that is a automatic interlocking.  the train will go back to Gibson Generating plant to empty, Not sure where its going to load somewhere in southern illinois,

Well not sure anymore if i Miss 4501 or not. If i was standing to the side and watching it go by ok but not wanting to work it.

[wabash1]

nscsxcrrailfan

That's good to hear, I thought about the other two signals, but I assumed that if any turnout between Moon and the UP diamond was thrown it would drop all the signals to red because there is no passing siding through there. I'm glad to hear that NS owns the interchange tracks, not the scrap facility. I'm not positive about this, but I don't think the NS track is connected into the EVWR, but it would be very easy to connect the two because the NS track at least goes right up to the EVWR track. Then again, maybe I'm missing it because if it hasn't been used in years it could just be so overgrown and buried in the mud that we just aren't seeing it. Earlier, we were talking about the two light dwarf signal at the West end of Golden Gate and the East end of Moon Siding. I looked at the ATSF signal system they used for one-directional running, and I understand that it serves a purpose of keeping a train on the siding from pulling out in front of one on the main. My question is, if NS is concerned about a Westbound on the siding pulling out in front of a Westbound on the main, why are they not concerned about an Eastbound on the siding pulling out in front of an Eastbound on the main as the three light dwarf shows occupancy of the main ahead, not the main beside the siding? Also, how does the diamond at Mt. Vernon work? Is it tied into the UP signal system or independent?

 

The signal would not let the train leave in front of a train on the main, it would be red for stop. Now dont get confused here if a train in the siding has a diverging clear gets a track authority to leave and is supposed to leave infront of a train comming down the main, either the dispatcher will contact that train or if the signal is red the conductor must go to the box, on the bungalo and push the button to start time. in starting the time this drops all signals red for stop. Its not hard to learn. just haft to be around it and work with it for about a week and you should master it.

[nscsxcrrailfan]

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=750470 Click on the link above or type it in.

[nscsxcrrailfan]

MP173, I think I can answer a couple of your questions. The National Railway Equipment Company is still in business and is doing Great! It's been a while since I drove through Mt. Vernon, but the last time I was there I saw at least 30-40 locomotives being stored and worked on. Sometimes, one will see locomotives that are from foreign countries being worked on. There are also really old locomotives there. I've seen Chessie System switchers, Southern Pacific switchers, F-units, and a few Alco units. I haven't seen the Wye up close, but if you use Google Earth you can get a fairly good look at it. What I was glad to hear was that the tracks between the NS main and the EVWR main are owned by NS, not the scrap yard. Google Earth shows the Wye surrounded by the Scrap facility, like the Scrap facility was built around the Wye. The NS-EVWR connecting track is at the top of the Wye and from what I have seen, it appears as if NS uses it to store cars on for the Scrap facility. They'll likely have to move the cars when the coal interchange takes place.

[MP173]

Back in 1977(?) or so, Southern ran their 4501 and wyed it thru a junkyard (looking at the photo now).  If memory isnt failing me...it was in Mt. Vernon. 

Looking at the Wikimapia, it appears the EVWR runs in from the SE (ex L&N line), adjacent to the old Precision National Locomotive.  Wiki shows that as National Railway Equipment.  Is it still in business? 

Further, it appears there is a wye at the SE edge of the Mt. Vernon HS.  Is that the scrapyard?  If so, and if that is the spot back in 1977 the 4501 wyed....it wasnt in very good shape then, they literally walked the 4501 thru the wye. 

Further, I have a couple of photos from the same day of a NB MoPac catching orders at the diamond (Southern?) with an operator standing trackside.  I didnt have any interest in the architecture that day, only the train and didnt include the train order office in the shot, except for a slight angle.  It appears the TO office was a prefab unit   Would that have been correct?

Interchange tracks between Southern and MoPac at SW and NE quadrants.  Back in the day, Sou/MoPac ran a daily Chicago - Jacksonville hotshot which would have turned east at that wye.

What a combo Southern/MoPac would have been. 

Oh, almost forgot...where is the coal off of EVWR destined to?  Is it going to be a regular move?

ed

[nscsxcrrailfan]

That's good to hear, I thought about the other two signals, but I assumed that if any turnout between Moon and the UP diamond was thrown it would drop all the signals to red because there is no passing siding through there. I'm glad to hear that NS owns the interchange tracks, not the scrap facility. I'm not positive about this, but I don't think the NS track is connected into the EVWR, but it would be very easy to connect the two because the NS track at least goes right up to the EVWR track. Then again, maybe I'm missing it because if it hasn't been used in years it could just be so overgrown and buried in the mud that we just aren't seeing it. Earlier, we were talking about the two light dwarf signal at the West end of Golden Gate and the East end of Moon Siding. I looked at the ATSF signal system they used for one-directional running, and I understand that it serves a purpose of keeping a train on the siding from pulling out in front of one on the main. My question is, if NS is concerned about a Westbound on the siding pulling out in front of a Westbound on the main, why are they not concerned about an Eastbound on the siding pulling out in front of an Eastbound on the main as the three light dwarf shows occupancy of the main ahead, not the main beside the siding? Also, how does the diamond at Mt. Vernon work? Is it tied into the UP signal system or independent?

[wabash1]

No that trackage at the scrap yard belongs to us, that is are old yard. they own the wye track thru the scrap yard but the rest belongs to ns.

Wayne city I know nothing about it but it wont take long to find out. If the local was working wayne city the signal at moon would have been clear and when he got to sims it would have been approach and at 105 it would have been restricting if the local was still on the main, The only reason I can think of to hold the man at moon is to give the local at wayne city a work between to run around his train, and to do that they would back the thru frieght authority up to hold at moon, I can tell you this I Know that crew on the local and they would not get hit.

[nscsxcrrailfan]

O.k., well a couple friends of mine were talking, and they reminded me that there really is no interchange between NS and EVWR there, those tracks belong to the Scrap Metal industry. Right now, it appears as if the only way the EVWR coal could be interchanged would be for EVWR to switch onto UP going South, then switch onto NS going North, backing up all the way through town to clear the interchange, then heading on East. So, like you said, new tracks will probably have to be built as my friends are pretty sure there is no connection to EVWR. Also, a friend of mine at Sims had a scanner and said that yesterday the Local at Wayne City was in danger of getting hit. He said that a Westbound had been given permission to go to the West end of Moon Siding and wait there until the local at Wayne City was done working. However, the Westbound flew through the West end of Moon on the main and travelled on towards Wayne City. He said, that after it passed Moon the crew reported to the dispatcher their position, and the dispatcher had a fit. I guess they stopped somewhere before Sims. A friend of mine said the crew said the signal was green so they went past it. I understand that you might not be allowed to discuss this, but if you can and know anything about this can you describe what happened?

[wabash1]

nscsxcrrailfan

Wabash1, I have another question for you. A couple of friends of mine were over today, and we were talking about the Evansville Western Coal train interchange at Mt. Vernon that you said is supposed to start soon. Where is the interchange in Mt. Vernon going to be taking place exactly? Where does NS and EVWR trackage link up (interchange)?

 

LOL Some where in Mt. vernon is a siding and a conection track in which we will meet these people and make a transfer.  they might re-lay track back behind the scrap yard and to the north of that loco rebuild shop. are old yard does go back there towards their railroad but it needs work, other than that I can say I dont know,  Now the trainmaster said the tracks are there all we haft to do is start interchanging, well if that is the case they must have them hid to keep vandalism down.

[nscsxcrrailfan]

Wabash1, I have another question for you. A couple of friends of mine were over today, and we were talking about the Evansville Western Coal train interchange at Mt. Vernon that you said is supposed to start soon. Where is the interchange in Mt. Vernon going to be taking place exactly? Where does NS and EVWR trackage link up (interchange)?

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Without knowing anything about this line - and acknowledging that the following do not specifically address or cover either former Southern Rwy. or NS signals - nevertheless the following website and web pages by Carsten S. Lundsten may be helpful:

"North American Signaling" at - http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/index.html 

"ABS, Interlocking and TCS/CTC basics" at - http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/signalbasics/ 

"ATSF double track Automatic Block Signaling - Example of ABS behavior", at - http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/abs_dt_atsf/index.html#Example 

Al Krug's "Railroad Signals" webpage at -  http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/signals/signals.htm

- Paul North.

[wabash1]

I am not sure of what your getting at but lets break it down, Approach means procede to next signal prepared to stop train or engine exceeding medium speed must at once reduce to that speed.  and medium speed is a speed not exceeding 30 mph.

So In above move Im leaving on a diverging approach signal at a speed thru turn out at no more than 20 mph. and straight up hill. the next signal is 2.3 miles away the other train is running by now 45 mph ( on a speed restricted curve)  he gets out of curve and is going down hill in dynamic holding at 50 mph. and does this for 3.4 miles he is now 7 miles past the siding and approaching the next siding, on clears, My train just gets out of the siding and heads for the first down hill and the next signal , as we round the curve at 15-20 mph we look 1/2 mile down the track and see the signal and its indication which is a clear and we let the train go. pretty simple, all in the rule book.

Now to simplify it further there is no way you can get a stop signal at the next signal. and just becasue it may be red does not mean you haft to stop. and just because i said i have a clear doesnt mean thats the case. in what you stated You seem to have me running 50 mph on a approach block running by a stop signal ( or maybe im reading more into it than was intended)  As far as assumng I assume alot of things thats not what i act on.

Now What i posted was a way that is leagle to leave the siding but what good does it do to run on approach blocks from 1 signal to the next. what i do is wait til the signal goes diverging clear then leave then i dont haft to wait and see what my next signal might be and i know that train ahead of me gets a good jump so i dont haft to run slow.

I have no idea what a red block commetteman is we dont even have a stop block commette. or man or woman.  I have never got past a stop signal ive went past a few improper displayed signals but no stops.

[Railway Man]

nscsxcrrailfan

I'm only a beginner on understanding signal systems, but from what I've heard, don't most CTC systems have ABS built in, so that if the dispatcher makes an error the system will automatically override him/her? .

 

CTC is a nothing more than an overlay on ABS that enables the dispatcher to request priority of train movement and select route.  If, and only if, the dispatcher's request does not create an unsafe condition, the ABS system will grant the priority or route. If you try to click on the dispatching screen to do something that is unsafe or not permitted, the screen won't even accept the command -- the request will never make it past the console and into the field.  Similarly on the old relay consoles you could throw a switch lever, but when you pushed the initiation button to send the command to the field nothing would happen.  There is no such thing as a CTC system that does not have an ABS system underneath it.

However, a dispatcher can defeat the safety checks of the ABS system with verbal instructions, for example, verbally authorizing a train to pass a signal displaying stop, and into the path of an approaching train, or authorizing a man to take a switch out of power and handthrow it on the main track in the path of an approaching train, and so forth.  And on occasion dispatchers make such errors, and cause damage to property or injury to employees, but such an error with actual consequences happens less often than some imagine.  Yet it does happen -- when I was in dispatcher training we were shown film of a head-on collision with multiple fatalities caused by a dispatcher, in the hope it would put the fear of God into us.

RWM

[DPI]

"Not sure what your getting at, but Yes the next signal could be a stop is what the term applies to but that wont be the case, if 2 trains leaving the siding the first is running on clears when i leave im leaving on a diverging approach. by the time i get my train out of the siding ( the siding he is talking about is 20 mph turn out )  and travel to next signal at no more than 30 mph  the train in front of me is running 50 mph, and will be 8 miles down the road and i will have a clear at the next signal."

 

I sure hope you were trying to simplify your scenario of two trains leaving a siding for the sake of this discussion and this is not how you operate. Approach means just that, be prepared to stop at the next signal. Never assume it will be clear. Might have to have a talk with your red block committeeman.

[wabash1]

nscsxcrrailfan

You mentioned that you prefer not to have CTC, which is understandable considering the wrecks CN/IC has had under CTC. I can't remember when it was, but I remember hearing about a major wreck down in Mississippi on CN due to a CTC fault. I remember it because a friend of mine owns a model of IC 1006, and he was mad because it was one of the units that was totaled out. I'm only a beginner on understanding signal systems, but from what I've heard, don't most CTC systems have ABS built in, so that if the dispatcher makes an error the system will automatically override him/her? Also, just in case you're wondering why I'm so interested in signals, it's because I'm wiring up one for my N scale layout. I'm using the Atlas signal system and instead of using Tortoise switch machines, I'm using regular ground throws that I've modified with a resistor to throw the signals to Red anytime the turnout is switched.

 

The system has a built in timer so he can not drop your signal and just give it to another train. that is a FRA rule also. My reason is i want to know in writting how far im going not just running til im stopped by a stop signal, and not knowing if its a track problem or waiting on a meet

[nscsxcrrailfan]

You mentioned that you prefer not to have CTC, which is understandable considering the wrecks CN/IC has had under CTC. I can't remember when it was, but I remember hearing about a major wreck down in Mississippi on CN due to a CTC fault. I remember it because a friend of mine owns a model of IC 1006, and he was mad because it was one of the units that was totaled out. I'm only a beginner on understanding signal systems, but from what I've heard, don't most CTC systems have ABS built in, so that if the dispatcher makes an error the system will automatically override him/her? Also, just in case you're wondering why I'm so interested in signals, it's because I'm wiring up one for my N scale layout. I'm using the Atlas signal system and instead of using Tortoise switch machines, I'm using regular ground throws that I've modified with a resistor to throw the signals to Red anytime the turnout is switched.