Does anyone know what happended to Rickey Gates of Conrailwho caused the big Wreck in Chase, Marylan

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

I think Nora has put it best. It was a different time and things the we did and that were accepted as normal, aren't anymore. You can't measure yesterday's actions with today's yardstick. It doesn't fit.........We didn't use car seats, folks smoked in restaurants, kids carried BB guns or Oh My God....22's around and shot them down by the river.....without eye, ear, or common sense protection. Heck, there was a time that it was accepted that blacks and whites couldn't even share a restroom. That has changed, so has attitudes with regards to drugs and alcohol.

That being said, that's no justification to go around saying "yeah whatever..he's a rat, because he said everyone is doing it".....cause they were......so was everyone else....pilots, PDs, Firefighters, doctors, everyone......Eventually, just as in about every field that testing or a Rule G type rule is in effect had some incident which led to change.............Northwest had the famous drinking pilots and such... ...Tailhook,....which I didn't even go to...I was on deployment in another freaking half of the world, postponed my promotion as well as everyone else's while it was investigated....that's like me saying that LT Paula Coughlin changed the Navy and made it worse, can't have the boy's club anymore.......whatever.....I blamed her, so did everyone else that touched by it..but we got over it and pressed on.....whatever.....It was a different time and things were different and if it hadn't been that then it would have been something else....so get over over it......at least I can say Tailhook personally affected me.

I was trying to figure out how to say exactly what Mr Harmon just said. It was a different time.

I wonder how just about anyone would react when they were facing being sent up the river in part for something that literally everyone WAS doing. Do I go do my time silently? Or do I blow the whistle on the behavior that got me in trouble in the first place? I opine that many would be tooting loud and long.

It was a different time. I don't regret the time I spent there, and I'm glad for the lessons I learned.

[Anonymous]

What's Rule G?

[csxengineer98]

rule G is a rail road rule that states...
no emplyee shall report for duty....or use while on duty..... be under then infuluance...possstion of... alcohal or any controlled substance that might inpair thier abilyt to work saftly....
this also aplys to any company provied fusilitys...(away from home hotel stays, rail road taxi service veicals)
also states that under the alcohal issue..no emplyee that is subject to call for duty must not consume any alcohol up to 4 hours befor being subject to call...... but when your working on an extra board..and have no real idea when you might get called...drinking is out unless its when you just get off duty..and enought time to sober up befor subject to being called agin...or on your off day....
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

I like the Idea of Rule G it needs to be on airplanes

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Doggy

I like the Idea of Rule G it needs to be on airplanes

Ummm yeah......It is and has been for a long time...way before Gunpow, like decades. FARs prescribe that no one may operate an aircraft having consumed alcohol or using any substance that could impair within 8 hours. Popping positive on a drug test during a physical, or being arrested for a drug or alcohol related offense can result in loss of license. Most airlines have more stringent company requirements that are very unforgiving. The militiary rules are twelve hours from preflight planning...not bottle to throttle....so if preflight is three hours long, back it up three more.

[Anonymous]

Before I head out I just wanted to let everyone know that the NTSB JUST found out the deadly UP wreck in New Mexico was drug related. People never learn[V]

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

Before I head out I just wanted to let everyone know that the NTSB JUST found out the deadly UP wreck in New Mexico was drug related. People never learn[V]

Mindreader!

I saw that in our Omaha paper this morning - but it brings up something else, not just the fact that the engineer tested positive and killed both himself and a young conductor - grrr - but the fact that he sidewiped a grain train. His train was running empties - going opposite way. Would this possibly be speeding and swaying or maybe running a red board and knicking the end of the other train? Anyone know the details?

[edblysard]

Would guess its dark territory.
Looking at the photos, and guessing his cat like reflexes were honed to a fine point by the dope, I bet the curve and siding and the other train just snuck up on him.
Sad part is, he took a someone else with him.

Still dont get why we let this crap go on, next time it might be one of us riding shotgun.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Interesting series of posts. I'm all for Rule G and similar rules. They are unevenly applied, though. Speaking from personal experience, I have seen truck drivers who were obviously wired on speed (using amphetamines) whose driving behavior was just as erratic as some drunks I have watched on the highway. For the most part, they were guys who were trying to do their best to put as many hours in as they could and make a living. Yet they were just as dangerous on the road as someone blowing weed... maybe even more so. The difference between the two examples is the motive for the offense. It's much more acceptable to be seen using consciousness altering drugs to do a job better than to be seen as someone "trying to relax" on the job.

The "culture" point is also a good one. States across the country have raised their drinking ages to 21, but in the 70's, you could get a drink if you were 18. The reasoning was that "if you could die for your country, you ought to be able to have a drink for it, too." Unfortunately, the good intention resulted in higher teen aged fatalities on the road.

And, as an added point of contention, ABC News recently ran an article on prescription drug abuse. I don't know of any employer who is going to fire someone for taking prescription meds. I have to worry when those muscle relaxers, pain pills or anti depressants get used by someone in control of a 100,000 pound truck... or a 10,000 ton train... or a 120 ton aircraft.

On behalf of Ricky Gates, who has been kind enough to respond to a lot of posts, I want to add that he's paid his price for his mistakes and is moving on. He's still paying for his accident... at least he's taken responsibility for it, unlike most of the drunks and druggies I've put in jail. That takes a lot of inner strength to do... and I respect him for it.

Erik

[Mookie]

And now we over-medicate our kids to turn them into pieces of furniture, so we don't have to deal with them just growing up and flexing their wings. So by the time they are adults, they are well into the drug scene. Back to burning down the house to get rid of termites!

[rrnut282]

[soapbox] now that this has raged on for a while, I'll give my [2c]

CSX
1. In one of your posts you said something about "selling out your brothers". I don't know how you can hold him accountable for doing this (which has to do with safety) when my union brothers sold me down the river with a "B-scale" wage. For those of you not familiar with this term, it can be summarized as follows: at the negotiating table, I let the company screw the new guy, in pay and benefits and work rules, so I don't have to give up anything. So you can stand side-by side with someone doing the exact same job and only get paid 60% of what the other guy is being paid. That means I only have to do 60% of what they do, right?? Sounds like the makings of one big happy family [B)] So I don't quite follow how you come to the conclusion that Rick (who is bill?) made the job worse as far as comaradery and watching each other's back is concerned.
2. Whether intentional or not, it sounds like you are upset about a percieved loss of freedom to do something dangerouslike doing drugs on the job. If this the case, how does it affect you and why? Do you want to live out the lyrics of the Greatful Dead, "driving that train, high on cocain, Casey ...."


Ed
This crap and others like it will continue because we have lost the ability to feel shame. The "if it feels-good do-it" crap has empowered people to do things most would find morally reprehensible because "it didn't hurt anyone but me." I think the efforts to do away with personal responsibilty like "it's not my fault, it's society's fault", and "everybody's doing it" are cheap, cowardly cop-outs. Fast forward 20 years and look at the mess we're in. Until Hollyweird and the popular culture stops showing it in a positve light, it will continue to fester and grow steadily worse.

[Mookie]

You know - I have to pop off here! I have read before in this forum about the later hires making less because of the union decisions (B-scale wage) -

I won't take sides on that particular one, but being female - I had no union to stick that one to me. Just being a female was the problem. My boss makes 3x's as much as I do and takes my ideas to the senior staff meeting. Women have always been way underpaid for doing the same job as their male counterpart. Not looking for sympathy - altho, will take any pity parties I can get, just expressing frustration!

[Anonymous]

Drugs is till a problem in all industries especially baseball also the UP cra***he Enginner on one of them had drugs in his system HE BROKE RULE G

DOGGY

[Rick Gates]

It's me again.......First, a little morbid humor to lighten things a bit. I have never been to New Mexico and , I have an alibi. The sick part of that really implies that once we become an alcoholic/addict we always will be. You can't change a pickle back into a cucumber. No matter what the times are though, we will always invoke our rights when confronted. Personally, and from hindsight, I encourage anyone to go thank any officer, fireman, boss, family member, whomever, has tried to prevent guys like me from doing harm. When in the throws of my addiction, I would invoke my rights and side with my confederates against these very people who were trying to protect me from myself and others. When I do go into detail about the events leading to the Chase accident, I try to drill home to others, that the worst decisions I made which lead to the accident, were made when I first arrived for duty. I was as sober as could be then. 49 hrs. and 15 mins. off duty . Approx. 10 hours of sleep just prior to reporting. My subconcious, unconcious, subliminal thinking (or whatever you prefer to call it) influenced making poor decisions while inspecting and testing equipment, etc. The influence basically went.....(not concious thought) If I take the time to set this right, I'll be cutting into "my" drinking time later. Now I did confront the Trainmaster about some of these things with the thinking that I was covering my ***..ets. I also thought, I only have light engines and I'm taking them to a shop where I will make sure these problems are addressed. After all I am a professional. Had I simply taken the time to untape the cab signal whistle, or turn the engines, The whistle would probably have alerted me (even if in a sound sleep) almost a mile prior to the accident scene. Or with just enough distance to stop clear. My point being, anyone with a drug/alcohol problem is not likely to know it or admit it. And, once into problem usage, our thinking even when not using is adversely affected. The problem influences our every thought and motive at a level not known or obvious. So, again, in hindsight, I encourage everyone to help your brother or sister on the job. Confont them and protect them and others even if it seems harsh. And thank all of you who do confront guys like me! It makes us all safer and able to go home again.

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Would guess its dark territory.
Looking at the photos, and guessing his cat like reflexes were honed to a fine point by the dope, I bet the curve and siding and the other train just snuck up on him.
Sad part is, he took a someone else with him.

Still dont get why we let this crap go on, next time it might be one of us riding shotgun.
Ed

The route is lit. The story I get is the empty auto racks were going up hill in run 8 and passed at least three restricting signals prior to the collision without any power adjustments or brake applications. They drove into the grain train "peddle to the metal".

I vivedly remember a confrontation in the crew callers with several trainment/enginmen. This was just after the Chase, MD, accident. They considered all of the testing and reporting an invasion of privacy. They were really spouting off. I made (at that time) no friends with my response to them - If they wanted to die because of their fellow workers drug - alcohol use, that was their business. I was intent on living and staying healthy, and if any one of them or any one else was using, I was not going to permit their working.

I still feel that way. Includes tobacco use on the job. In the late 1960's, in Norway, smoking while operating a motor vehicle (train, plane, boat or car) carried the same penality as DUI.

[edblysard]

You know,
Until we, the T&E employees, decide we wont put up with this...

Uphill, notch 8 thru 3 restrictives?
One stoned and both of them snoring?

Like Rick said, it becomes a mind set, you rationalize your bad behaviour, and find a way to justify doing something you know, absolutly know, is dangerous.

My sister is a alcoholic.
She is also a nurse, ER, OR, Trauma, and a flight nurse with her citys life flight service, along with a Lt. in her Civil Air Patrol.
And this well educated, smart lady will look you straight in the face, and tell you she can drive her car just as well drunk as sober.
Shes a nurse, she know exactly what alcohol does to the human body, and what excess alcohol does.
But stop or moderate her drinking?
Not a ice cubes chance in hell.
She has convinced herself she has no problem, (other that the three destroyed cars and loss of her insurance).

And in our industry, every time we turn a blind eye to our co workers showing up, or getting wasted while at work, we are only a eye blink, or three restrictives away from killing ourselves or one of our friends.

Ed

[Kathi Kube]

So Ed (and any other rail workers who've been in the industry throughout several decades),

How prevalent is drinking and drug use these days—not only while on duty, but during off times, as well? (Since that clearly does affect a person's overall decision-making skills.) From what I hear, it's better than it was, but still fairly common.

And if so, what more can be done to change it? Or are supervisors still turning a blind eye to it the way I hear they do with some unsafe—but vastly more efficient—work practices?

Thankfully, I've never worked in an occupation where people's lives were at risk, or where drug or alcohol use were common—although I've seen plenty of drinking at holiday parties with other employers and at railroading trade shows.

What's the scoop?

Kathi

[Anonymous]

I Think Supervisors have a blind eye to safty

[kenneo]

Wow, Ed. I do understand. My father-in-law was a full blown alcoholic. Would drive down the freeway the wrong way in a VW Beatle. Died a natural death in his 70's. My wife learned to drive by taking him home from the bars she found him in when she was still in Jr. High. Her mother was a drug adict and alcoholic. When Sue was back east to force her mother to come live with us (by court order - either us or a locked facility, like a prison), she sneaked out of her house and slipped down to the grocery store, bought a fifth of gin and a mixer, and started slugging them down, left hand, right hand, left hand, right hand ---- and then proceeded to drive into a light pole in the store parking lot. Cops brought her home in the squad car, her car was towed home. Cops were stunned to find my wife there, frantically looking for her. She had just got off the phone to 911 trying to find her. The cops had brought her home so many times in such condition --------.

Kathy -- it is better, and once it starts, most folks can't stop their problem. My opinion, is that the real culprit here is the way the railroads (and the unions, too) run the pool jobs. I won't go into that here - it has been discussed passed the "puke" stage. And it has to be changed for a varity of reasons. There needs to be a zero tolerance not only for use on duty, under the influance, but use at all. When I was active in the operating department, I would not drink AT ALL - PERIOD - and if I was going to be off for two or more weeks, the limit was .08 BAC not more than twice per week and 5 days free prior to reporting.

Part of the problem is that it can be hid so well. Do we do a blood test when the crew reports for duty each time they report?

My reaction to what I had heard when I called my contact as related in an earlier post was just mind blowing. And now I read that it was true. I just can't believe it. The hoghead being - perhaps - DUI, given a great enough "I", well. But if he were sober? And the Conductor?!?!?? What was he doing??? I would have been unglued a long time prior, and I don't come unglued very easily. The locomotive cab may well have needed repairs on its interior!

I could go on and on and on. I have no tolerance for such stupidity. I have buried good friends due to DUI. WHAT PART OF "NO" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND

And Ricky, you understand, you didn't stay in denial (if you ever were there), and you did something about it. BRAVO! You understand all of "no". You are not included in the above. I just want you to know that. You are NOT on my list.

And to the rest -- sorry I got so worked up, here. But this subject is very personal.

[edblysard]

Hi Kathi,
Well, no duty, no anywhere as bad as it used to be, but as a guess, if someone showed up drunk or stoned, most crews would put him in the rear locomotive cab, tell him to stay put, and cover for him.
The "We take care of our own" mindset is still there.

A lot of this has to do with railroad hireing practices, where you have to have a relative on the inside to get hired.
The pre employement check is not very good, so we keep hireing the same sort of people, or their brother...
And to that the culture difference, the "us" against "them" attitude, and it easy to see where some one can slip between the cracks.

I have only had one experience in eight years with a crew member showing up to work under the influence, and I offered him the choice of playing sick and calling a relief, or he could explain why he was wasted to the trainmaster.
He called a relief.

Off duty, I really feel that railroaders dont drink or use drugs anymore than most blue collar occupations.
Would guess that you would find the same percent of abusers among iron workers or construction workers.
But the random testing has made a impact, at least according to the old heads I work with.

Still, I think it is up to us, the T&E employees, to police ourselves.
As long as we ignore the problem, or expect management to correct it, it will never completly go away.

Ed

[Anonymous]

kenno You do bring up a point about about full blown acholaism

DOGGY

[Rick Gates]

I remember one incident some years before this accident when I was on call but didn't expect to get out to work any too soon. I had a friend over the house that evening and I drank freely. I was unexpectedly called to work a road job and tried to mark off Rule G. The crew dispatcher told me I couldn't do that and after some debate I agreed to throw it in the Trainmaster's lap. I told him I would go to work and present myself drunk in front of the trainmaster and he would still have to call someone to take my place. I got to work (expecting to be sent home) grabbed a coffee and proceeded to the Trainmaster's office. He was all ready expecting me with my crew in attendence in his office. He asked me how I was and I told him I was tired and drunk. He told me I looked OK to him and get on the train. He said my crew would look out for me. I told him I was the only one on the crew that knew how to run the train and, again he told me they would look out for me. They did.....every time I stopped...they stayed asleep. I can't believe that anything like that could go on now-a-days. And I believe this is an extreme example of how it use to be. No matter what denial I may have been in about my problem, in those days, filling the job with a body was more important the your condition. We did throw a drunk on the caboose or rear unit to sleep it off and "looked out" for him or her. Also, the same Trainmaster did try to catch me drinking on the job after that on several occasions, but was unsuccessful. In part, because I was on to him and, because my crew was "looking out for me." I was also knowledgable enough about the rules, timetable, and laws to intimidate many of my bosses and crew. As I said, I can't believe those things could still be going on. I do know however; from working as a counselor in the treatment centers, that I would see about 2 RR employees per month come before me. That is in one of many treatment centers. Also, these were the ones who were caught and forced to come to treatment to save their jobs. That indicates that there are still many more individuals with a problem that don't get caught or even know they have a problem. I agree with Ed that the RR has no greater or lesser a problem than any other profession. In, fact it (in my opinion) is probably less statistically so than others. Unlike the other professions though, railroading is potentially more dangerous to more people than most others. An Employee Assistance Program was available to me. I didn't trust them. One can however, "rat out" a co-worker with a chronic problem to an EAP with anonymity to themselves and the other person. Sounds harsh, but is a safe alternative. Also, help can be found through these EAP's to cope with friends, family, etc. (non-RR), that may have an abuse problem through interventions with punitive consequences and counseling. The phrase "safety is no accident" works best if we all police ourselves and each other rather than ignore or cover up the problems. I would be VERY grateful now if someone had turned me in before I harmed so many!

[kenneo]

Rick

Your experience with the TM is similar to one that I had that resulted in a headon that destroyed 3 locomotives and came incredibly close to killing 4 friends and destroyed a complete trainload of ribbonrail. "Guilty" engineer, on very short rest, tried to lay off on call and mark 10 hours continuous. TM wouldn't let him.

So, up the hill they went, a road crew (locomotive - 2), train crew (caboose - 2) and helper (locomotive - 2) with 7 SD40/45's and 11,000 tons. Took 5 hours to get the first 50 miles, so they went in the hole at Oakridge for beans and cut back the helper there. Our crew, fully fueled at the beanery, headed up the hill at the astoundingly fast speed of 12 MPH Run 8. He remembers only the Salt Creek Trestle because the flange noise on the reverse curve woke him up until, for some reason, about 15 cars short of the Westward absolute signal at the West End of Wicopee when he came awake looking at a red "A" signal. He put the train into emergency and stopped about 6 cars and 3 units byond the Eastward Absolute Signal just as his friend came around the corner at track speed in expectation of going inside at Wicopee only to crash into the Westward train. The Eastward Ribbonrail Extra rode up over the Westwards lead unit, ripping open the fuel tank and everything just blew up.

Why those four men lived to tell the tale is byond any to explain.

Booze and drugs played no part in this disaster, but an attitude of running the train no matter what, the very hipnotic effect of high hoursepower engines, slow speeds, the "3AM" syndrom and full tummies did in the very professional attitude of two very good enginemen. Three restrictive signals run by because the crew was uncounscious. The entire ribbonrail train destroyed - engines, threaders, stringers - everything including the rail, destroyed. Two of the three road locomotives of the Westward Extra destroyed - one incinerated and the other, later, declared a total. Since the helper was still shoving, it pushed a lot of cars into heaps.

Ed is correct in that one of the problems is the hireing of those who are not qualified or "dangerous" due to substance abuse. Rick is correct in that substance abuse is still a problem. And there is an attitude problem in both management and labor about working until you drop, but not stopping even then.

[Anonymous]

Railroad need to have Alochal Programs about how to stop drinking before going on duty like how not to break Rule G

DOGGY

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Doggy

Railroad need to have Alochal Programs about how to stop drinking before going on duty like how not to break Rule G

DOGGY

Ah, Doggy, they all do.

[Anonymous]

Had 14 yrs engine svc before ConRail attrition, have spent 18yrs in industrial mech engr'g, would like to go back into engine service before I retire so as to bolster RR Ret and complete the circle of experiences, any realistic prospects in Indiana/Ohio?

[Anonymous]

Did you hear about the UP enginner that got fired becuase he broke Rule G

DOGGY

[Rick Gates]

Haven't heard about the UP hogger in the news. Just in these threads.

[csxengineer98]

doggy
OPPORATION RED BLOCK
that is the program set up to alllow crewman that are cought short after a night of drinking to be able to mark off without any penilty from the carrier... you are alowed 1 freebee....meaning...the first time you mark off red block... you will get a call from a red block captian... to discuse what happend... now if you use red block to mark of agin within a time period... you might be asked to go to AA counsaling.....
also under the red block gidelines.. if you show up for duty and you have been drinking... a crew man can pull you out of service under red block.. and someone has to give you a ride home... and you have to contact a counsuler withing 48 hours of the insident...now if a crewman donsnt pull you out...and a TM, RFE or any other boss gets to you first.....your *** is done... Rule G violation... and you have to talk to counsuler...pluse time off... and your subject to even more random alcohal testing for up to 3 years i think it is... in that 3 years of probation..if you come up with a positive breathaliser reading....your done....
http://www.redblock.com/
check this sight out for more information...
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

also this sight...
it has more information on opporation red block
http://www.utu.org/DEPTS/PR-DEPT/REDBLOCK.HTM
csx engineer