Yep. The curtain's been pulled back and the light has been turned on.
To add another metaphor--the "public threat" gave the cockroaches an excuse to run away from the light.
Looking ahead, I see a spate of laws forthcoming that will force the railroads to file reports in advance of the movement of any hazmat cars with state and local authorities. The reaction to this will be segregation of such cars to one or perhaps two mainline trains a day over the main lines, and a nightmare for the managment of transport in local and transfer freights.
According to the listing of the cars involved, the hotbox was about 25 cars behind the locomotives. I think that it would still be visible from the headend at night somewhere in the twenty miles that it traveled. Actually it probably went more than 20 miles since it was probably burning before it passed the camera in Salem, OH.
CatFoodFlambeLooking ahead, I see a spate of laws forthcoming that will force the railroads to file reports in advance of the movement of any hazmat cars with state and local authorities. The reaction to this will be segregation of such cars to one or perhaps two mainline trains a day over the main lines, and a nightmare for the managment of transport in local and transfer freights.
In the 'for what it is worth' catagory -
The City of Baltimore made a request of the CSX Baltimore Terminal Services Center to be notified of all HAZMAT that was arriving destined to industries in Baltimore or was being carried 'overhead' through Baltimore on a daily basis.
As I recall we provided data on the approximately 300 HAZMAT cars that were being delivered or originated from industries in Baltimore as well as the data on roughly 100 more HAZMAT's that were passing through on through trains.
Once the data was provided we got a Thanks but you have more than satisfied our interests. We don't need any more data, especially, not in real time.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Some commenters earlier have noted that roller bearings can overheat very quickly, so maybe they have made the occasional trackside heat-detectors obsolete.
Given the widespread availability of small temperature sensors and micro-circuitry these days, how hard would it be to build and install heat sensors on every axle on every freight car in America? Might be a problem devising a way for them to flash a unique number to the head locomotive cab and also communicate with dispatchers, but surely wireless and cellular technologies are up to the task. With mass production these devices would not cost much, either.
MrLynnSome commenters earlier have noted that roller bearings can overheat very quickly, so maybe they have made the occasional trackside heat-detectors obsolete. Given the widespread availability of small temperature sensors and micro-circuitry these days, how hard would it be to build and install heat sensors on every axle on every freight car in America? Might be a problem devising a way for them to flash a unique number to the head locomotive cab and also communicate with dispatchers, but surely wireless and cellular technologies are up to the task. With mass production these devices would not cost much, either.
Things that are simple in ones and twos - become infinitely more complex when the numbers are raised to the hundreds and thousands and hundreds of thousands and into the millions.
Computers can handle a lot of data, but only if someone can devise computer systems to make the data generated usable to the people that need it. Then throw in the level of confidence that the ultimate data generated is correct.
MrLynnGiven the widespread availability of small temperature sensors and micro-circuitry these days, how hard would it be to build and install heat sensors on every axle on every freight car in America? Might be a problem devising a way for them to flash a unique number to the head locomotive cab and also communicate with dispatchers, but surely wireless and cellular technologies are up to the task. With mass production these devices would not cost much, either.
The technology may exist, its the execution that is the elephant in the room. Somehow, you have to get that data to where it can be used.
Consider that a 150 car train will have 1200 sensors. We don't want them reporting continuously, as they'd be walking all over each other. If they only transmit when there's a problem, we have to hope that they are actually working - remember, of the 8 bearings on the car in question, only one was likely "in alarm." Maintenance becomes an issue, and we know how Wall Street feels about hiring more people...
There is also the logistical problem of how to know which sensor is in alarm. Somehow we'd have to have a way to reconcile the unique ID to a specific bearing. Sure, computers could do that, as long as the database is maintained and up to date.
And where are they going to get their power? The RFID tags on each car are passive - they only respond when polled, and don't have batteries. If the axle sensors work the same way, then we're back to how far apart to put the polling stations.
It's a great idea, and someday its day will come, I'm sure, but I don't see its implementation on the thousands of railroad cars in this country any time in the foreseeable future.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Thoughts:
1. Doesn't Canada limit the speed and number of Haz Mat cars in one train?
2. It may be the covered hopper was part of the protection of locos maybe in an earlier train ?
3. 38 miles from detectors? Is that correct ? Around here CSX has detectors from 12 - 15 miles on main lines and one city has 4 MTs about 2 miles outside city each with a detector..
4. NS is probably going to need to close one track at a time and excuavate down to non detectable depth ?
5. Thought that the burn off was recommended by Hax Mat and chemical personnel not assotialed with NS ? > Thought that NS had no say in the burn off ?
Here is the car listing that the NTSB has released: https://response.epa.gov/sites/15933/files/TRAIN%2032N%20-%20EAST%20PALESTINE%20-%20derail%20list%20Norfolk%20Southern%20document.pdf
Based on the Salem, OH video, it appears that line 25 was the car with the overheated bearing: GPLX 75465. It was the second hopper car in front of the block of tank cars. GPLX is a reporting mark used by GATX corporation.
What is significance of colors (yellow, green, brown) in the car list?
Also - what is " BLEVE" term?
Thanks
BLEVE is short for Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion, an explosion that's caused when a vessel with pressurized liquid surpasses the boiling point
(1) waiting for the other shoe to drop that will have federal politicians and some of the really activist newsworkers looking to hide.
(2) IF some of the kneejerk politicians get their way, I seriously want to see what happens if railcar owners and shippers have to pay for unfunded mandates applied to railcars and hazzardous lading not owned or necessarilly controlled by the railroads [ a la PTC]
(3) Back in the 1980's they were playing with journal defect reporting devices similar to the EPC braking follies we see today. It didn't reliably work back then and the financial ramifications were beyond excessive. How long until that stuff oozes back-up to the surface ?
mudchicken <SNIP> (2) IF some of the kneejerk politicians get their way, I seriously want to see what happens if railcar owners and shippers have to pay for unfunded mandates applied to railcars and hazardous lading not owned or necessarilly controlled by the railroads [ a la PTC] <SNIP>
<SNIP>
(2) IF some of the kneejerk politicians get their way, I seriously want to see what happens if railcar owners and shippers have to pay for unfunded mandates applied to railcars and hazardous lading not owned or necessarilly controlled by the railroads [ a la PTC]
"Mudchicken",
I think we can safely assume what will happen if that scenario plays out: They will put more and more hazmat stuff on the highways. YIKES~! Just the other day there was an incident in Southern Arizona where a semi overturned on I-10 and dumped its load of nitric acid. Will shipping hazmat stuff by truck be an improvement?
I generally disagree and disagree strongly with Pete Buttigieg. But on his point that 1,000 derailments a year is too many, it's kinda hard for me to disagree with that. But, what can be done to make rail really super safe and not destroy the industry at the same time?
Socialists like Bernie Sanders might advocate nationalizing the railroads. That'd be GREAT ~ ! Then all the freight railways would be managed and run like Amtrak. An improvement? Hardly.
That and the entire enviromential disaster that is happening from the burned slashed chemicals all in that area. NS is looking at a disaster that is going to make 3 Mile Island look like a fart right now and is so far behind in the PR battle they can not see daylight from where they are in the hole. Let alone the US Department of Transportation and their response to allowing stuff like this to happen at the FRA when the railroads are pushing for less men in the cab and overall. Their push for PTC is looking like a failure on stopping crashes. It may if the railroads have the manpower to maintain the trains instead of buying back their stocks to pump up their earnings.
Fred M Cain mudchicken <SNIP> (2) IF some of the kneejerk politicians get their way, I seriously want to see what happens if railcar owners and shippers have to pay for unfunded mandates applied to railcars and hazardous lading not owned or necessarilly controlled by the railroads [ a la PTC] <SNIP> "Mudchicken", I think we can safely assume what will happen if that scenario plays out: They will put more and more hazmat stuff on the highways. YIKES~! Just the other day there was an incident in Southern Arizona where a semi overturned on I-10 and dumped its load of nitric acid. Will shipping hazmat stuff by truck be an improvement? I generally disagree and disagree strongly with Pete Buttigieg. But on his point that 1,000 derailments a year is too many, it's kinda hard for me to disagree with that. But, what can be done to make rail really super safe and not destroy the industry at the same time? Socialists like Bernie Sanders might advocate nationalizing the railroads. That'd be GREAT ~ ! Then all the freight railways would be managed and run like Amtrak. An improvement? Hardly.
The technology of all products both consumer and industrial in the 21st Century increasingly use a multitude of the HAZMAT commodities in their manufacture. HAZMAT has to move between where it is manufactured and where it is used.
Should we roll back to a 19th Century society?
mvlandsw BLEVE is short for Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion, an explosion that's caused when a vessel with pressurized liquid surpasses the boiling point
Here is a video from a derailment on the B&O in Murdock, IL in 1983 of two BLEVE events: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4HRAhXuHyg
A BLEVE is a two part explosion. First, due to the heat from the fire and resulting increase in internal pressure, the tank car structure fails via a violent physical explosion. Then the flammable contents of the tank car catch on fire and explode via a chemical reaction as they are released from the compromised tank car vessel.
Just imagine that happening multiple times in East Palestine vs. the controlled releases. Not trying to minimize what actually occurred. Just trying to put in perspective what could have happened had the controlled releases not been accomplished.
Shadow the Cats owner That and the entire enviromential disaster that is happening from the burned slashed chemicals all in that area. NS is looking at a disaster that is going to make 3 Mile Island look like a fart right now and is so far behind in the PR battle they can not see daylight from where they are in the hole. Let alone the US Department of Transportation and their response to allowing stuff like this to happen at the FRA when the railroads are pushing for less men in the cab and overall. Their push for PTC is looking like a failure on stopping crashes. It may if the railroads have the manpower to maintain the trains instead of buying back their stocks to pump up their earnings.
Very true!!
Perhaps a documentary ala "Unsafe at Any Speed" will follow.
mudchicken (1) waiting for the other shoe to drop that will have federal politicians and some of the really activist newsworkers looking to hide. (2) IF some of the kneejerk politicians get their way, I seriously want to see what happens if railcar owners and shippers have to pay for unfunded mandates applied to railcars and hazzardous lading not owned or necessarilly controlled by the railroads [ a la PTC] (3) Back in the 1980's they were playing with journal defect reporting devices similar to the EPC braking follies we see today. It didn't reliably work back then and the financial ramifications were beyond excessive. How long until that stuff oozes back-up to the surface ?
Let's pretend nothing is wrong. Just exaggerated reporting and kneejerks by pols. Right!!
tree68Apply heat sensors to all tank cars used for chemicals and petroleum. MrLynn Given the widespread availability of small temperature sensors and micro-circuitry these days, how hard would it be to build and install heat sensors on every axle on every freight car in America? Might be a problem devising a way for them to flash a unique number to the head locomotive cab and also communicate with dispatchers, but surely wireless and cellular technologies are up to the task. With mass production these devices would not cost much, either. The technology may exist, its the execution that is the elephant in the room. Somehow, you have to get that data to where it can be used. Consider that a 150 car train will have 1200 sensors. We don't want them reporting continuously, as they'd be walking all over each other. If they only transmit when there's a problem, we have to hope that they are actually working - remember, of the 8 bearings on the car in question, only one was likely "in alarm." Maintenance becomes an issue, and we know how Wall Street feels about hiring more people... There is also the logistical problem of how to know which sensor is in alarm. Somehow we'd have to have a way to reconcile the unique ID to a specific bearing. Sure, computers could do that, as long as the database is maintained and up to date. And where are they going to get their power? The RFID tags on each car are passive - they only respond when polled, and don't have batteries. If the axle sensors work the same way, then we're back to how far apart to put the polling stations. It's a great idea, and someday its day will come, I'm sure, but I don't see its implementation on the thousands of railroad cars in this country any time in the foreseeable future.
MrLynn Given the widespread availability of small temperature sensors and micro-circuitry these days, how hard would it be to build and install heat sensors on every axle on every freight car in America? Might be a problem devising a way for them to flash a unique number to the head locomotive cab and also communicate with dispatchers, but surely wireless and cellular technologies are up to the task. With mass production these devices would not cost much, either.
Shadow the Cats owner <SNIP> Their push for PTC is looking like a failure on stopping crashes. <SNIP>
Their push for PTC is looking like a failure on stopping crashes.
My concern over the PTC issue has been from the very beginning that is was an unfunded mandate (generated from another knee-jerk reaction) and, WHERE was the money to pay for PTC to come from? The railroads were forced to spend untold billions installing this stuff. Where was the money to come from? Were they pressured to "borrow" some of it from maintenance? I don't know but it was a concern.
PTC is mostly only able to prevent train-to-train collisions and overspeeding in some cases. Most wrecks are not caused by speeding or collisions. PTC would not and cannot prevent the type of wreck that occurred in East Palestine.
Is the media over blowing this stuff? Possibly. But give them credit. At the very least the media has managed to get the minds of American off of COVID~! (I know, I know, that's a bit facetious).
Part of the equation for a BLEVE is flame impingement.
If the flame - especially directed flame, such as from a burning tank vent - is impinging directly on the vessel, the contents of the vessel usually disperse the heat, until they don't.
Once the level of the contents gets below the point of impingement, the shell takes all the heat, which weakens the shell to the point of failure (the contents being under pressure either because of the nature of the contents, or as the result of the applied heat).
What has happened in the past is that the vessel will end up in two main pieces. The portion with the flame impingement will lay out. The other half will often take off like a rocket. At Oneonta (an early incident in the world of BLEVE), that portion travelled over a third of a mile, stopping only when it hit a riverbank.
It should be noted that even water will BLEVE if the conditions are right. The water will not burn, of course, but the container failure will be the same.
Oneonta, NY and Kingman, AZ were two early learning experiences for the hazmat community.
Given the opportunity, firefighters will attempt to flow water on the point of impingement, using an unmanned nozzle. Lots of water.
blue streak 1 Thoughts: 1. Doesn't Canada limit the speed and number of Haz Mat cars in one train? 2. It may be the covered hopper was part of the protection of locos maybe in an earlier train ? 3. 38 miles from detectors? Is that correct ? Around here CSX has detectors from 12 - 15 miles on main lines and one city has 4 MTs about 2 miles outside city each with a detector.. 4. NS is probably going to need to close one track at a time and excuavate down to non detectable depth ? 5. Thought that the burn off was recommended by Hax Mat and chemical personnel not assotialed with NS ? > Thought that NS had no say in the burn off ?
Canada does not limit the number of dangerous cars in a train. We do have speed restrictions for trains at least a certain amount of certain types of dangerous goods.
https://tc.canada.ca/en/rail-transportation/rules/rules-respecting-key-trains-key-routes-0
Railcar bearing monitoring systems exist, and have existed for decades. VIA Rail has used such a system since the 1990s on locomotives and some passenger equipment (LRC and Renaissance cars have it, I'm not sure about the Budds). While they had started installing it some time before this it came into renewed focus after a major accident it should have prevented. In this case a locomotive traction motor suspension bearing overheated but the crew did not know how to properly diagnose the problem using the then new system, so they and a mechanical supervisor simply went through the steps to manually cancel the alarm. The train made it another 800 miles before piling up in western Saskatchewan after the bearing finally failed.
https://www.tsb-bst.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/1997/r97h0009/r97h0009.html
I believe the VIA system does not use radio communication, data is transmitted via a cable along the length of the train. Something which ECP would allow for on freight trains. It also does not make any sounds or broadcasts unless it detects a problem, just like our wayside dragging equipment detectors, wheel impact detectors, and the new 'Super Scanner' automated inspection sites in my area.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
tree68 It should be noted that even water will BLEVE if the conditions are right. The water will not burn, of course, but the container failure will be the same.
That wouldl be a boiler explosion when the crownsheet fails.
tree68There is also the logistical problem of how to know which sensor is in alarm. Somehow we'd have to have a way to reconcile the unique ID to a specific bearing.
This one seems pretty easy. The bearing monitors report to a module on the car, which then transmits to the EOT or lineside that there's an overheat condition. It just reports that TILX 342921 is overheated. Does it need to know which bearing is the problem? Even if you do, the car already has an A and B end, so you have an A truck and B truck. You have an inboard and outboard axle. There's a left and right side, using the B end as the "front" of the car. So TILX 342921BIL is a unique identifier that requires no database management or anything outside of the actual module itself.
As for power, is there any reason that you couldn't just use one of the axles? You don't need a ton of power to run something like this. If you can't draw power from axle rotations, a small solar panel (6x9 or so) and a long life battery could get it done.
CSSHEGEWISCHThat would be a boiler explosion when the crownsheet fails.
Pretty much.
Thank you NTSB for saying what should have been put out a week ago. Maybe now the newsworkers and other brainless wonders will back off enough to let FRA and NTSB get into their work without all the hysteria.
The Kingman case (July 1973) began when the employees at the Doxol propane plant used steel tools to unload the propane, instead of brass. (steel sparks, brass doesn't). The sparks started a fire..which led up to the BLEVE.
SAMUEL C WALKER tree68Apply heat sensors to all tank cars used for chemicals and petroleum.
tree68Apply heat sensors to all tank cars used for chemicals and petroleum.
The video showed the burning axle on a covered hopper, not on a tank car.
MrLynnThe video showed the burning axle on a covered hopper, not on a tank car.
Indeed.
Even age isn't really a factor. Undetected flaws in the bearing, etc, could lead an almost new bearing to fail.
As I said before, great idea. The problem is in the execution.
NittanyLion tree68 There is also the logistical problem of how to know which sensor is in alarm. Somehow we'd have to have a way to reconcile the unique ID to a specific bearing. This one seems pretty easy. The bearing monitors report to a module on the car, which then transmits to the EOT or lineside that there's an overheat condition. It just reports that TILX 342921 is overheated. Does it need to know which bearing is the problem? Even if you do, the car already has an A and B end, so you have an A truck and B truck. You have an inboard and outboard axle. There's a left and right side, using the B end as the "front" of the car. So TILX 342921BIL is a unique identifier that requires no database management or anything outside of the actual module itself. As for power, is there any reason that you couldn't just use one of the axles? You don't need a ton of power to run something like this. If you can't draw power from axle rotations, a small solar panel (6x9 or so) and a long life battery could get it done.
tree68 There is also the logistical problem of how to know which sensor is in alarm. Somehow we'd have to have a way to reconcile the unique ID to a specific bearing.
This answers many of the objections to sensors on every truck on every car: a train-length cable and unique axle/bearing IDs; signal sent only when heat detected. Sensors powered by small generators on the wheels, like I used to have on my bicycle, recharging a battery.
"requires no database management" Love it!
MrLynna train-length cable
Just put it on the ECP line...
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