blue streak 1 Amtrak 29 and 30 stopped in Pittsburg and Toledo respectively and returned to WASH and CHI. No 29 & 30 today/
Amtrak 29 and 30 stopped in Pittsburg and Toledo respectively and returned to WASH and CHI. No 29 & 30 today/
MP173 If the car which caused the derailment was a private fleet car and there was an issue with the bearing or axle which led to the derailment...which appears to be the case, how would that affect the liability for cleanup, damages, etc?This is going to be a big ticket ($$$) event. Ed
If the car which caused the derailment was a private fleet car and there was an issue with the bearing or axle which led to the derailment...which appears to be the case, how would that affect the liability for cleanup, damages, etc?This is going to be a big ticket ($$$) event.
Ed
Lax inspections of rolling stock. I suppose there will be a lot of buck passing as to responsibility. But communities and higher levels are going to demand better safety or shut them down. PSR and vulture capitalism are the ultimate villains.
A hot-axle detector might have seen nothing related to an impending axle failure. A WILD would only have detected whether there was undue vibration, as from a flat wheel, and axle failure again might not have provided a critical level of 'signal' prior to letting go.
I'd expect focus on 'blame' to be more on the chain of periodic car inspections conducted during interchange, not on the car's owner or nominal insurer.
It was reported in at least one online news article that the train had 141 cars - mostly loads. That's a pretty long train.
This brings me to a question I posted on this group last year. Could they possibly have minimized this disaster with a shorter train? The engineer tried to stop the train but it piled up anyway. Would the same thing have resulted with a much shorter train?
Perhaps and perhaps not. Just wondering, that's all.
I would think that there would have been a smaller mess but otherwise not too much difference. All of the kinetic energy in a moving train still has to be dissipated somehow, which is what causes the accordion action when something comes to a sudden stop, which is apparently what happened.
Fred M Cain blue streak 1 Amtrak 29 and 30 stopped in Pittsburg and Toledo respectively and returned to WASH and CHI. No 29 & 30 today/ Why does Amtrak have to do stuff like this? 40 years ago a much younger Amtrak would've found a detour. Could they have sent the westbound train over CSX west of Pittsburgh to maybe Clevland or someplace? It seems like perhaps they get no respect or cooperation with the freight roads.
We are in the era of PSR staffing on the freight railroads. They don't have a large enough crew base to protect their core business interests without some shortages. The certainly don't have enough crew base to support piloting Amtrak.
Back in the day - in relative terms, you had NYC, PRR, B&O, NKP, ERIE all having roughly parallel routes between New York and Chicago. Today you have the remains of the NYC & B&O - that have been 'right sized' for the traffic they are currently handling - no extra traffic.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If this had happened on Union Pacific, there would be 20 pages of messages calling for the company to be shut down and dismantled! This is a disaster for Norfolk Southern, not to mention a disaster for East Palestine. If a doorbell camera can spot the overheating bearing 13 minutes before the derailment but the railroad has no clue of impending catastrophe, than some lessons need to be learned!
- Ed Kyle
MP173 A conversation (NS radio communication) between a dispatcher on another territory and an unknown person indicated that the previous HBD showed an axle "trending" hot, but not enough to trigger an alarm. Unsure what the proceedure is when a "trending hot" is detected. My guess is that protocal will change. The NS continues to run their hot intermodal trains out of Chicago for Croxton and Harrisburg, but the trains are now all single stack...no double stacks the last few days. These trains are running in both directions. Given these are single stacks, it either suggests a routing which does not support double stack clearance or provides the flexibility to re-route these trains on alternative routes. Does anyone know how these trains are routed? The Croxton could obviously go CSX at Berea, or perhaps the ex NKP line to Buffalo then the ex EL line to Binghamton. Harrisburg could also go that route to Binghamton then down to Harrisburg. What a mess. ed
A conversation (NS radio communication) between a dispatcher on another territory and an unknown person indicated that the previous HBD showed an axle "trending" hot, but not enough to trigger an alarm.
Unsure what the proceedure is when a "trending hot" is detected. My guess is that protocal will change.
The NS continues to run their hot intermodal trains out of Chicago for Croxton and Harrisburg, but the trains are now all single stack...no double stacks the last few days. These trains are running in both directions.
Given these are single stacks, it either suggests a routing which does not support double stack clearance or provides the flexibility to re-route these trains on alternative routes.
Does anyone know how these trains are routed?
The Croxton could obviously go CSX at Berea, or perhaps the ex NKP line to Buffalo then the ex EL line to Binghamton. Harrisburg could also go that route to Binghamton then down to Harrisburg.
What a mess.
ed
The preceding hotbox detector was approximately 19 miles west of East Palestine at milepost PC68.9. The next hotbox detector was in East Palestine at milepost PC49.85. See for reference: http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/railroads/companies/NS/NS%20Track%20Charts/NS%20Pgh%20Division%20Track%20Chart%202016.pdf
From the reports that I've read, the crew received a critical alarm from the East Palestine detector moments before the train went into emergency and derailed. Seems to me that the primary question that will come out of this is whether or not hotbox detector spacings will need to be further decreased. It is a well-known fact that axle bearings can go from a normal operating state to critical failure in a very short period of time. In this case it appears that the current system saw the problem developing and caught the failure, but not in time to stop a major accident from occurring.
ns145 MP173 A conversation (NS radio communication) between a dispatcher on another territory and an unknown person indicated that the previous HBD showed an axle "trending" hot, but not enough to trigger an alarm. Unsure what the proceedure is when a "trending hot" is detected. My guess is that protocal will change. The NS continues to run their hot intermodal trains out of Chicago for Croxton and Harrisburg, but the trains are now all single stack...no double stacks the last few days. These trains are running in both directions. Given these are single stacks, it either suggests a routing which does not support double stack clearance or provides the flexibility to re-route these trains on alternative routes. Does anyone know how these trains are routed? The Croxton could obviously go CSX at Berea, or perhaps the ex NKP line to Buffalo then the ex EL line to Binghamton. Harrisburg could also go that route to Binghamton then down to Harrisburg. What a mess. ed The preceding hotbox detector was approximately 19 miles west of East Palestine at milepost PC68.9. The next hotbox detector was in East Palestine at milepost PC49.85. See for reference: http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/railroads/companies/NS/NS%20Track%20Charts/NS%20Pgh%20Division%20Track%20Chart%202016.pdf From the reports that I've read, the crew received a critical alarm from the East Palestine detector moments before the train went into emergency and derailed. Seems to me that the primary question that will come out of this is whether or not hotbox detector spacings will need to be further decreased. It is a well-known fact that axle bearings can go from a normal operating state to critical failure in a very short period of time. In this case it appears that the current system saw the problem developing and caught the failure, but not in time to stop a major accident from occurring.
Reacting to getting the Critical Alarm from the defect detctor MAY be the cause. Applying air brakes on the train cause a 'off center' force to be applied to the axles - a overheated axle that is approaching being molten metal can be forced to separate by the pressure being applied from a car's brake shoes. A wrung axle.
It's about 4.5 road miles from New Waterford (site of the doorbell cam) to East Palestine. The track distance looks to be about the same (virtually parallel).
So, the train had ~14 miles for the problem to erupt to full bloom before being seen on the doorbell cam, then another 4.5 miles to completely fail.
The drone shots seem to show several cars derailed, more or less in line with the tracks, then the accordian begins, which leads me to believe that one of the cars "dug in," as I've already mentioned. I'm guessing that the first several cars were, in effect, stringlined as things came to a sudden stop behind them.
The post mortem will be interesting.
At least it appears that the hazmat portion of the incident has been pretty much mitigated, so the site can begin to be cleared up.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Responding to Balt's comments:
Kind of screwed either way. The way I read the report it sounded more like the train went into emergency on its own. I doubt that an engineer would dump the air for a hotbox/hot axle alarm unless they saw or felt something that indicated that the train was already on the ground.
Fun fact: the East Palestine hotbox detectors are located immediately south of the fire station. The irony... The detectors appear to be about 4000+ feet west of main derailment site and fires.
What instigated the emergency brake happening ? Since the car(s) involved probably would not have braked they would have run into the front of the train. There is one classic case causing a derailment.
So, did crew inititate or did train?. Did engineer bail off loco ? How quickly did crew disconnect from train ? Imagine the danger of a one man crew waiting for roaming conductor ? Who is going to be able to keep the pin uncoupled when the loco may have to go back and forth to uncouple ?
ns145Fun fact: the East Palestine hotbox detectors are located immediately south of the fire station. The irony...
While poking around in StreetView, I came across the fire station. It's a relatively small town, a couple of engines, ladder, tanker, and an ambulance. I have little doubt that the chief's first words to dispatch on seeing what he was up against was to request a "y'all come..." Fire departments from three states responded.
ns145Responding to Balt's comments: Kind of screwed either way. The way I read the report it sounded more like the train went into emergency on its own. I doubt that an engineer would dump the air for a hotbox/hot axle alarm unless they saw or felt something that indicated that the train was already on the ground. Fun fact: the East Palestine hotbox detectors are located immediately south of the fire station. The irony... The detectors appear to be about 4000+ feet west of main derailment site and fires.
It doesn't take a emergency brake application to create a wrung journal. Any air brake application will do it. Upon getting a Critical Alarm from a defect detector, the Engineer would initate a 'routine' service stop. I have no idea what procedures the NS Train Handling Rule call for in that particular area.
Remember freight cars have clasp brake shoes acting upon one section of the wheel tread - thus providing a off center force against the axle. When the axle is cold and solid you have brakeing; when the axle is hot and near molten you end up with a wrung journal.
Needless to say a near molten journal can wring itself just from the weight of the car acting on the journal without any braking forces.
Overmod A hot-axle detector might have seen nothing related to an impending axle failure. A WILD would only have detected whether there was undue vibration, as from a flat wheel, and axle failure again might not have provided a critical level of 'signal' prior to letting go. I'd expect focus on 'blame' to be more on the chain of periodic car inspections conducted during interchange, not on the car's owner or nominal insurer.
In addition to the above, it is now becoming common to see a note about "Bearing Identified by Acoustic Detector" on our train lists. This is one of many "Preventative Maintenance, Safe to Move" codes.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
If there is anybody else on this thread holding Norfolk Southern common stock, this is probably not good news for us. :(
BaltACDWe are in the era of PSR staffing on the freight railroads. They don't have a large enough crew base to protect their core business interests without some shortages. The certainly don't have enough crew base to support piloting Amtrak. Back in the day - in relative terms, you had NYC, PRR, B&O, NKP, ERIE all having roughly parallel routes between New York and Chicago. Today you have the remains of the NYC & B&O - that have been 'right sized' for the traffic they are currently handling - no extra traffic.
Other issues: lack of interchange tracks, interchange in the wrong quadrant, run-around and backup moves; the stuff that burns up time for an already late train.
Pile on enough time and they miss the turnaround window. Amtrak doesn't have the staffing for short turns, nor a standby fleet to makeup consists if inbound equipment doesn't arrive in a timely manner.
Fred M Cain If there is anybody else on this thread holding Norfolk Southern common stock, this is probably not good news for us. :(
And the citizens of East Palestine will say "cry me a River".
Given NS' ongoing quarterly and annual record financial results, the stock won't take that big of a hit for very long. This is a bad accident but it isn't Lac Megantic.
OWTXOther issues: lack of interchange tracks, interchange in the wrong quadrant, run-around and backup moves; the stuff that burns up time for an already late train. Pile on enough time and they miss the turnaround window. Amtrak doesn't have the staffing for short turns, nor a standby fleet to makeup consists if inbound equipment doesn't arrive in a timely manner.
This is all of the stuff that came to my mind first, plus tracks being rated for passenger service aren't as common as they once were. I also see a bit of a practical consideration: is there any way to get from Toledo to Pittsburgh without bypassing Alliance and Cleveland? If you're bypassing them in the first place, cancelling the train has the same impact on those stations.
NittanyLion OWTX Other issues: lack of interchange tracks, interchange in the wrong quadrant, run-around and backup moves; the stuff that burns up time for an already late train. Pile on enough time and they miss the turnaround window. Amtrak doesn't have the staffing for short turns, nor a standby fleet to makeup consists if inbound equipment doesn't arrive in a timely manner. This is all of the stuff that came to my mind first, plus tracks being rated for passenger service aren't as common as they once were. I also see a bit of a practical consideration: is there any way to get from Toledo to Pittsburgh without bypassing Alliance and Cleveland? If you're bypassing them in the first place, cancelling the train has the same impact on those stations.
OWTX Other issues: lack of interchange tracks, interchange in the wrong quadrant, run-around and backup moves; the stuff that burns up time for an already late train. Pile on enough time and they miss the turnaround window. Amtrak doesn't have the staffing for short turns, nor a standby fleet to makeup consists if inbound equipment doesn't arrive in a timely manner.
The east end of the Cleveland Line between Alliance, OH and Rochester, PA would seem to be the most direct detour path around the derailment site. I'm guessing that there are clearance issues for autoracks and double stacks, but I don't know why Amtrak trains couldn't use this trackage. Hopefully someone local to the area could shed some light on the situation.
Not to belittle the East Palestine event - it is just another of the costs of doing business as a Class 1 railroad in the 21st Century.
.
NS has Main 2 (the north track) open now at East Palestine according to an email alert that I received at 8 PM EST tonight:
On the morning of February 7, Norfolk Southern and its contractors were allowed to begin clearing the site where a derailment occurred on February 3 in East Palestine, Ohio. As of today, all cars have been cleared from the site. Service has been restored to mainline 2.
While this allows for a route through the site, customers should expect availability delays of at least 24 hours on shipments moving between Cleveland and the Northeast via Pittsburgh, PA due to residual congestion and continued efforts to restore service to mainline 1.
BaltACD Not to belittle the East Palestine event - it is just another of the costs of doing business as a Class 1 railroad in the 21st Century.
As they say - "stuff" happens.
NS donatd $25,000 to the red cross. IMO completely inadequate. Less than $2.00 per person affected.
blue streak 1 NS donatd $25,000 to the red cross. IMO completely inadequate. Less than $2.00 per person affected.
I won't argue it's not enough, the entire village is just under 5,000 population.
Amtrak could detour from Conway to Youngstown to Astabula on NS, then CSX to Cleveland and back to NS. All the necessary track connections exist and traffic should not be a concern unless freight detours are using this routing. Crew availability might be.
Having more car inspectors would not have prevented this accident. Static inspections are unlikely to detect bearing defects.
Here is a status report from west end...Chesterton, In on the railstream.net cam (and scanner).
Yesterday double stacks starting appearing. Prior to that it was single stacks and trailer.
This morning saw:
WB 25P at 750am...usually much earlier (Morrisville to Chicago)...Had about 10 UPS containers!
WB 265 at 1115am - usually around that time (PAS train from Albany area...uneffected)
WB27G at 1132am - usually 3pm (is this a day late?) - Harrisburg to Chicago. All single stack TOFC
WB29G at 959am - usually 5am (Croxton to Chicago). Had Double stacks
These are all domestic trains some with LTL. Other than the Morrisville train, I havent seen UPS much.
So, it seems the westbounds are running again, much later than normal. The eastbound fleet will release this afternoon with about 5 intermodals including Croxton, Harrisburg, PAS (Albany), Port Newark, and Sandusky.
NS seems to be running normal Eastbounds.
Train 28x for Croxton had 2 motors and 209 trailers and double stacks. About 1.5 hours late, but this is the first "normal" 28x in awhile. Yesterdays had only 21 revenue loads.
Still no UPS.
MP173NS seems to be running normal Eastbounds. Train 28x for Croxton had 2 motors and 209 trailers and double stacks. About 1.5 hours late, but this is the first "normal" 28x in awhile. Yesterdays had only 21 revenue loads. Still no UPS. Ed
I would feature that during the outage - UPS traffic would have been trucked over the road with NS picking up the tab on expenses for the truckers.
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