Not a great day for the dispatcher

[dknelson]

Yesterday (Sunday Feb 22) I saw a situation develop at Waterford Avenue on Milwaukee's South Side that demonstrates why being a dispatcher ain't all beer and skittles. This is on the CP (ex Milwaukee Road) main from Chicago to Milwaukee. An eastbound freight, running extra (called #490 running as second 298) stalled on the hill because it had only one locomotive -- a big BNSF as it turned out. (sorry -- too busy looking through the viewfinder to note the number or model of the engine).
The dispatcher was called and did not seem to understand the situation (I had never heard his voice before) so he was full of useless advice like doubling the hill. When the crew politely reminded him of just how long doubling the hill would make his a one track rather than two track railroad, the DS quickly agreed to call out a helper. Meanwhile however Amtrak 8 was also leaving the depot eastbound and 335 was fast approaching westbound (THAT's why you want a two track main!) so 335 had to wait at the nearest crossover, at Lake, for #8 to pass and clear the main. Meanwhile the Jones Island "Island Job" road switcher was approaching the end of the extra. However once they coupled on, it was clear they had never done shoving before. They forgot to tie off the air and were bleeding off the air. So the engineer of the stalled engine had to give (long distance) lessons to the switcher as to how to do this right. Then they had to pump up again. Finally they began to move. It is interesting to see a long long train go by that has no slack in it -- all couplers were tight -- it sounds different going by! When the road switcher went by it was shoving to beat the band and the air was filled with the smell of hot carbon. I bet at night there would have been sparks flying. The train proceded down to Lake where the switcher cut off but once again they did it wrong and cost the train its air. I have to admire the patience of the engineer on the freight. So the switcher came back "wrong main" at very high speed to keep the other main free. Not high excitement by any means but I got to thinking -- what if we were in the era of unmanned trains run more or less by a dispatcher? This dispatcher did not seem to know the territory and his idea of doubling the hill seemed as nuts to me as it did to the crew in the cab.
Dave Nelson

[mudchicken]

Dave:

With centralized dispatching, this type of dispatcher unfamiliarity with the territory becomes more common. You are starting to see decentralization (UP/BNSF Spring TX and San Bernardino CA are examples) starting to appear because management finally "saw the light" after massive delays by totally out-of-touch DS's fouled-up the system. The efficiency expert consultants (i.e. - industrial engineers & time management people) sold railroad management a rotten bill-of-goods by championing the consolidation game to the point that dispatchers get swamped and everybody waits.
If you are at the bottom of the operating pecking order, such as a track gang or track inspector, you may never get out in the day to do your job because the DS is way too busy moving priority trains and has no time for anaything else even though the track in your area may be clear for hours.

An old post on here claimed that they saw a track gang in the hole all day sitting around doing nothing and thought it was a big waste of money and the gang ought to be fired or disciplined - The problem was not the gang, it was more likely the DS and a system that regularly creates the overload of responsibilities on one person (created by an industrial engineer/ efficiency expert who never railroaded in his life)....a human equation thing that ought to be fixed.

[tree68]

I found it curious that the CSX Montreal Secondary, and apparently a good part of the Chicago Line (the old water level route), at least in NY, is dispatched out of Selkirk, while lines in the Detroit area are dispatched out of Jacksonville. The Detroit area would seem to be busy enough to warrant something closer, I would think...

[BaltACD]

The biggest problem in Dispatching these days is lack of railroad experience.

New Dispatchers for all carriers are coming off the STREET with no prior railroad expreience. The primary reason for this is that most of the apprentice type jobs that previously existed and provided a pool of potential Dispatcher applicants have long been abolished and no longer exist. Needless to say the learning curve is very steep. The Training Programs the the carriers have implemented to make New Dispatchers cannot provide a sense of 'real world' railroading to these trainees as that experience is gained over time in observing the real world situations that develop and how the 'PROS' respond to the situation to get the railroad moving again.

Most carriers have a graduated pay system for new Dispatchers that progresses from 75% to 100% of the Dispatchers rate over a 5 year period. While the New Dispatchers, dispute the validity of the system....what their bad decisions cost the carrier over the 5 years more than warrant the graduated system.

The story that was related to start this thread indicates that not only was a New and miminally qualified Dispatcher running the territory but either a new or disgruntled crew was on the Switcher that provided the assistance. Both New Dispatchers and New Train and Engine Crews are the regrettable facts of life for the railroads today. And that will continue into the future. You only gain experience by doing the job, no amount of Training can prepare Dispatcher or Train Crews for all the situations that will arise.

[dehusman]

How will a dispatcher sitting 500 miles away from you (at a "decentralized" office") answer the radio faster than a dispatcher sitting 1000 miles away from you (at a "centralized" office)?

Dave H.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

How will a dispatcher sitting 500 miles away from you (at a "decentralized" office") answer the radio faster than a dispatcher sitting 1000 miles away from you (at a "centralized" office)?

Dave H.

Hopefully he (or she) has a few less tone-ins ringing in his ears..... Plus the fact that he may actually have seen the track he's dispatching. In our case it's maybe 200 vs over 1000 miles.

[JoeKoh]

Ed made a post awhile back on how their dispatchers rode their territory.I think that might be needed as with more local dispatchers.
stay safe
joe

[Anonymous]

Aren't dispatchers suppose to ride their territory 2 a year

[Anonymous]

Since I used to be a dispatcher, the temptation to wade in on this thread is large ...

It almost suffices to say that in any system or set of choices there are trade-offs, and sometimes the consequences of a decision aren't fully understood. Three choices are iterated above: graduated pay, centralization of offices, and method of qualifying new-hires.

Graduated pay. I have seen no evidence either scientific nor first-hand to validate the inefficiency of a newly marked-up dispatcher versus an old head. I've seen dispatchers with only four months on the job run their desk brilliantly, and old heads with ten years on the job run their desk into the dirt every night. The risk is that the new-hire knows they are making less than the old head, and if they perceive themselves as better at the task, they may become embittered or look for a better job. Employees are usually very good at knowing exactly what they're worth.

Centralization. Some railroads have done it, some haven't. I've been in both types of offices and can see advantages and disadvantages. The distance from the railroad that is being dispatched means that familiarization trips are increased by the air fare and travel time. There are advantages in knowing your crews first-hand, but against that must be balanced the difficulty in promulgating best practices to local offices, and the advantage of centralization in hiring and promotion. I don't think there's evidence to clearly point to either system as best.

Qualification of new-hires. I have seen very little evidence that allows one to sort out which path to follow: experienced or novice. Off-the-street hires have everything to learn and nothing to unlearn. Some of the very best dispatchers I've seen are former operating craft and maintenance-of-way employees -- conductors, engineers, machine operators. Railfans are rampant in dispatchers' ranks, and most -- but not all -- are respected as excellent. There are plenty of new hires with no prior railroad experience who I have watched quickly become outstanding dispatchers, as well as the opposites. Dispatchers are like any employee: you get what you pay for. The big difference is that your bad shopping habits are punished severely with excess operating costs.

If you ask a dispatcher what his problems are, most will point to a workload they consider too high to do the job efficiently and safely. They consider their territories too large, their familiarization too small, and their supervisors having too little experience and too little authority to handle problems. Ask the railroad, however, and you'll likely get a very different story.

I don't see any way to bring this thread to any conclusion or any greater truth or understanding. The problems with dispatchers are endemic railroad-wide and business-wide throughout America. I'm not sure they're unusual or different.

[Anonymous]

Dave,
How much of the CP from Milw to Chicago is single track? I've been around Racine, Sturtevant and Kenosha as recently as last summer and it appeared to be double track. Have they taken out more, or is this just closer in toward the city?
Thx
Stack

[jeaton]

Just out of curiosity for Mark or any other past or present desk man. Over time can you begin to get a feeling for the differences in the proficiencies of the engineers? I have often speculated that some engineers are better train handlers than others. Maybe not such a problem on the flat and straight, but throw in a little grade and curve, add some up and down in speed limits... Then, just the time you need good progress for a train so that everything stays smooth, there is the engineer equivalent of the 85 year old screaming down the Interstate at 45 MPH.

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dblstack

Dave,
How much of the CP from Milw to Chicago is single track? I've been around Racine, Sturtevant and Kenosha as recently as last summer and it appeared to be double track. Have they taken out more, or is this just closer in toward the city?
Thx
Stack

The minute you stop a train on double track and it can't restart, you have instantly inherited a single track railroad between the two closest crossovers to your stuck train.
I have no idea how far 2-298 would have had to double, but I would guess since Mr. Kneiling's attitudes about excess plant have taken very deep root in todays railroad management, it would be quite a ways. The decision to call a helper and the time to get it to 2-298 speaks volumes.

I can't believe that the local didn't know how to shove. That stunt deserves 30 days unpaid. Nothing will probably happen, though. The UTU must have really changed the agreement, because that local crew should have gotten an extra two days at the overtime rate for the rescue effort, provided, of course, it was outside their bulletin.

[Anonymous]

Jay: Sure. Every engineer is a unique individual and has their own style, just as every dispatcher is unique and has their own style. Kansas City Southern was such an up-and-down railroad with such a broad variety of trains, engineering standards, and people, that these differences were pretty sharply defined. I'm not so sure you would see it on other railroads as clearly, however.

[Mookie]

Psst Mark - what's a dog crew?

[PNWRMNM]

Mookie,

One that rescues a crew that has died on the law, worked their legal 12 hours. The relief crew is known as the dog catch crew.

[dknelson]

Just to clarify - the entire CP between Milwaukee and Chicago is double track. The train was stalled near Waterford Avenue. The nearest passing siding is at Lake -- a few miles south. But for a crewman to walk back to half the train to break it in two, then take the first half to Lake, then get permission to run back to the rest of the train, drag it to Lake, then accompli***he interesting task of putting it back together again (I do not know if 490/298 is preblocked or not), and then get back on the main, you are looking at several hours where Track 2 is totally unavailable for through trains., making it in effect a one track railroad.

As to the yard job's evident unfamiliarity with shoving, I do not want to do anyone an injustice. The conversation on the scanner indicated the road engine had to talk the yard brakeman through the task, and it was done wrong at least twice -- upon hookup and when cutting off.

This reminds me of a funny story that took place on the same line, but going west of Milwaukee. Back in steam days the Hiawatha sometimes needed a shove out of the Milwaukee depot going west, and one day a small 0-6-0 did the honors. Unfortunately the crew was unable to build up enough speed to create slack -- they were unable to uncouple, but the road crew up front did not know this. By the time the Hiawatha hit Duplainville it was going the "usual" 100 mph, with a small drivered 0-6-0 stuck on the rear! The operator at Duplainville saw this and telegraphed ahead to have the train stopped. That must have been a terrifying ride in that switcher - probably rough riding enough at 25 mph
Dave Nelson

[wabash1]

Mark is correct I have sat in sidings for hours waiting for the chance to run cause a old head dispatcher didnt care if he ran trains or not. but we had a new hire dispatcher that would come in after him ( and be left a mess of crews ready to hog and trains sitting ) and he would get everything up and running it took a few hours and lots of patients from the crews to get it going and things would be ok til the following morning when it start all over again. we are all glad this man is retired now. some are good at thier job and some are not.

As far as helper service goes not every railroader knows how to do this. there are places on the road that never see this and when you have a crew stall on a hill and the next train crew has to help . they have no idea what to do. most dont know that you cut the air out on the helper so all brakes are controlled from the head end. you cant blame the helper crew for something they have no idea what they are doing. if you would ask ed about shoving another train he would problem say he has no idea what is gooing on or even how to attempt it. and by fra rules you cant shove another train if you are short hood out coupled into the rear of the train being shoved you either haft to be long hood out or go to your rear unit and operate from there. this rule is broken regularly just dont get caught. reason why if the train you are shoving goes into emergency your engine will go right thru that rear car ( or can) right into where you are sitting and killing you.

[Anonymous]

The comment was made by Mudchicken:

"You are starting to see decentralization (UP/BNSF Spring TX and San Bernardino CA are examples) starting to appear because management finally "saw the light" after massive delays by totally out-of-touch DS's fouled-up the system. "

If that is the case, how come those happened years ago and they have never been repeated? The only time the UP and BNSF "decentralized" was right after the SP merger and only at locations where the two railroads had joint operations.

Smith

[Anonymous]

I have enjoyed this thread. I see alot of similarities between Trucking Dispatchers and Railroad Dispatchers.

I cost the company alot of time as a new driver. And I also have had a new dispatcher cost me alot of time. Time is what makes money. Anything that costs too much time will impact in a ripple all the way thru the system.

I recall a load of "Beef Tomatoes" air freighted into Kennedy from Holland along with Peppers. Upon arrival at pickup I see the tomatoes underneath 800 pounds of pepper. I was advised rudely not to touch the netting but load it into truck as it is.

I objected, called my dispatcher and was told to take it to the customer. He and I both knew what may happen. The result was a long day on several phone lines across both sides of the Atlantic to determine blame for the crushed tomatoes.

I realize the tomatoes are not "Trains" but this minor issue cost my company an oppertunity to run a valuable revenue load that day because of "Lost Time" trying to unravel something that could have been done better.

[Anonymous]

In regard to the question on decentralization: the joint dispatching offices at Spring (Houston), San Bernardino (Los Angeles), Chicago, and Kansas City are there not so much to effect decentralization as to create joint offices. BNSF and UP are greatly intertangled in those cities, and the joint offices go a long way to create solutions to problems that have existed for over 100 years. Kansas City also includes KC Terminal and Kansas City Southern's ex-Gateway Western desk, for example.

If you're going to create a joint office, you might as well put it where the action is, so the dispatchers can work closely with the trainmasters, yardmasters, and roadmasters they normally deal with rather than doing everything over the phone. The exception, interestingly, is the Powder River Basin. In recognition that employment in a remote location is expensive, that joint office is contained within BNSF's Network Operations Center in Fort Worth.

It's a common complaint that "everything has gotten worse" and more focused on process than product, but I don't know anyone who doesn't consider these joint offices a great success.

[espeefoamer]

This happened on the SP in the 1970s. A train left LA and went in the hole in El Monte.(about 14 miles.)The train died on the law there. A dog catch crew took over.They died still sitting in El Monte.A third crew finally got the train moving again.[:(!]

[jeaton]

I have been thinking about the centalized vs. decentralized issue on train dispatching and recalled a personal experience. I once was kind of a marketing manager with some oversiight over a short unit train operation. The train operated on a 24 hour schedule and things had to work fairly well to keep the schedule. The train operated over two crew districts. There was, at least at that time, penalty pay if a crew did not leave there home terminal within a set period of time after they were called. Most of the delays occured at the crew change point, as the second crew was often not called until the train had arrived at their origin terminal. I wasn't in a position of significant authority, so I wasn't given clear answers, but I suspect part of the problem was a certain lack of confidence between the separate division dispatch ofices. No doubt there was pressure to avoid origin terminal delays and the resulting penalty pay.

I guess what I am saying is that having dispatchers for different territories in the same room may lead to better communication for the hand off process. I am not sure that having the dispatch office at some point ON the territory being controled necessarily results in a better job. True, the dispatcher is closer to the action, but he is still inside a building and still has to run trains for the many miles up and down his territory. Now if part of the training is riding trains up and down the territory, I wouldn't think it made much difference if it took a short walk or a long plane ride to get to the train.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

This happened on the SP in the 1970s. A train left LA and went in the hole in El Monte.(about 14 miles.)The train died on the law there. A dog catch crew took over.They died still sitting in El Monte.A third crew finally got the train moving again.[:(!]

And if the 2nd crew is dog catch, what is the 3rd one, since they obviously needed one - probably more than once in history.