Dear All,
What became of the Proto 1000, Proto 2000 and regular LL product after Walthers took over? Are they respectively the Main Line, Proto, and Train Line series? Should I presume products of these lines are nothing but a new release of older Proto 1000/2000? The problem arises always when I try to rate an older Life Like on Ebay.
Regards
Walid
Not exactly. Walther's had a Trainline line before the bought Life Like - I have a couple of FA's, they are the old Train Miniature shells on an improved chassis. The Trainline X29 box car is also the old Train Miniature.
When looking on ebay, LL train set level stuff should be pretty obvious, with truck mounted couplers. They may have gotten knuckle couplers at the end but most likely they are all X2f couplers. P1K and P2K, there was no product overlap, so what the loco is a model of will tell you which one it is. Though either is quite good, so it doesn't really matter.
Walthers has redone some of the P2K and P1K locos, but they've also introduced new ones under their various lines.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy, thanks for the reply. However, it did not make me smarter (sorry if it sounds rude). My problem is to estimate the LL product in question with respect to the current Walthers "allegedly" over taken LL ones.
For example: Walthers will bring this summer Alco PA A/B units in the main line program. Should I presume they are a new release of the older LL P2K? There will be also F7 in the same line, are they the older ones while the Proto F7 are upgraded/reworked version?
You see, if I have an answer I can better decide whether to wait for the new release or seek older LL stuff, and whether the new releases are worth the price or not.
Generally Walthers Proto engines based on previous Life-Like Proto engines aren't exactly straight "reissues". The LL Proto engines did not have DCC plugs for example, so have to be hard-wired. Also, the Walthers versions now usually have been set up to easily convert to sound, with a space for a speaker. For example, my fairly recent Walthers / Proto E-7 DC engine came with an 8-pin DCC receptacle and a receptacle behind the cab for a 1" speaker. My earlier LL E-units had to be hard-wired, and didn't have a space set aside for a speaker (although there's plenty of room inside to add one.)
Some of the older LL engines didn't run as well as others - I think LL used different manufactures to make differnt engines, so they aren't the same. The E-units and SD-7/9s were good, while many of the LL GP-7/9s had problems with cracked gears and other issues. Walthers has upgraded the problem ones with newer / better motors and gears so they now all run well across the board.
Ken Patterson was doing advertising photography for Walthers when they took over the LL line. He asked them what they were going to do about the gear problem and was met with blank stares. They had no idea.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Every older Life Like engine that I have, I have had to replace the gears in the truck with Athearn gears. It's not a huge PITA, but if your not careful you can break things. I bought one fairly new RS2 at a train show (had never been out of the box), I had to replace every truck gear, then the motor had issues, and I finally wound up removing the motor and the drive gears on the trucks and making it a dummy. That was the last time I bought a Life Like.
Your mileage may vary, hopefully.
Joe
Since the discussion drifted in the drive mechanism direction (which is not bad BTW), I will hijack my own post with the following question. I have two identical LL Alco PA bought second hand. Both are still DC and run very nice, BUT indvidually. Once I put the two on the track and raise the voltage, one moves while the other stay there like a dead body. Apparently the drive in one of them is heavier than the other. Did anyone encounter this? Is it an easy remedy that involves just cleaning and lubrication?
BigDaddy Ken Patterson was doing advertising photography for Walthers when they took over the LL line. He asked them what they were going to do about the gear problem and was met with blank stares. They had no idea.
Well they must have gotten the idea pretty quickly because they corrected the problem after acquiring the line. They currently offer the replacement wheel/axle sets for GPs, BL2, FA and some other LifeLikeP2K engines
https://www.walthers.com/replacement-geared-driver-assembly-diesel-wheelset-pkg-2-for-early-proto-2000-r-bl-fa-gp7-9-18-20-30-60-proto-1000-tm-f3
For a time they similarly offered replacement wheel/axles for the E units but while listed in their catalog they are not currently available.
Walthers initally offered these replacement wheel/axle sets free for the defective LifeLike P2K originals. Any such engine is now old enough that the free offer no longer stands. As others have pointed out, since LifeLike was using a clone of Athearn, Athearn parts also work.
If you have an old LifeLike P2K engine you also presumably know about the gunked up excess lubrication issue that needs correcting.
Dave Nelson
khier Since the discussion drifted in the drive mechanism direction (which is not bad BTW), I will hijack my own post with the following question. I have two identical LL Alco PA bought second hand. Both are still DC and run very nice, BUT indvidually. Once I put the two on the track and raise the voltage, one moves while the other stay there like a dead body. Apparently the drive in one of them is heavier than the other. Did anyone encounter this? Is it an easy remedy that involves just cleaning and lubrication? Regards Walid
josephbw Every older Life Like engine that I have, I have had to replace the gears in the truck with Athearn gears. It's not a huge PITA, but if your not careful you can break things. I bought one fairly new RS2 at a train show (had never been out of the box), I had to replace every truck gear, then the motor had issues, and I finally wound up removing the motor and the drive gears on the trucks and making it a dummy. That was the last time I bought a Life Like. Your mileage may vary, hopefully. Joe
Joe,
It's been something like a decade since Life-Like produced locos. The grease that was used tended to harden over time. The plastic gear molding tended to self-destruct anyway just sitting in the box, as the internal stresses released via the craking of the gear.
As you noted, the fix is an easy one, just get some Athearn part #60024. Says they are for an SD-40 on my old package, but it's a direct replacement for the old L-L part. Take apart, put together and clean that old grease out and replace with some LaBelle grease. Easy-peasy.
And it usually is just the gears on the 2-axle trucked units. The C-C ones tend to be good as anything 10 years or more can be.
khierI have two identical LL Alco PA bought second hand. Both are still DC and run very nice, BUT indvidually. Once I put the two on the track and raise the voltage, one moves while the other stay there like a dead body. Apparently the drive in one of them is heavier than the other. Did anyone encounter this? Is it an easy remedy that involves just cleaning and lubrication?
Walid,
P2K PAs were produced with two different motors. The first was a high amp draw unit and could cause problem with many DCC decoders if they didn't have a high enough amp rating to handle it. The later runs had a much imporved motor with much reduced amp draw.
It dounds to me like you have one PA from each run. The one that's reluctant to run probably has the high-amp motor. Also check the grease in the truck gears to see it hasn't hardened due to age. You can either convert it to a better motor or get a high-am draw rated DCC decoder and make the adjustment through CVs.
BTW, the easiest way to a new motor is to buy a later run PA and swap the whole chassis around. The shell fits either chassis.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman The first was a high amp draw unit and could cause problem with many DCC decoders if they didn't have a high enough amp rating to handle it. The later runs had a much imporved motor with much reduced amp draw.
Mike,
I guess this is the most propable explanation. The "heavy" one jumps immediately when I remove the other. Buying a replacement locomotive may bring nothing if it belongs to the early, high amp run. Unfotunately most of sellers have no idea about such details. I guess a replacement motor is a better idea. Hopefully I can find it in Walthers catalogue.
wjstixGenerally Walthers Proto engines based on previous Life-Like Proto engines aren't exactly straight "reissues".
Stix has it right. Some current WalthersProto and WalthersMainline locomotives use some former Proto 1000 or 2000 parts, but current production WalthersMainline and WalthersProto locomotives have the WalthersProto drive, which shares no parts with the old P2K drive. In many cases the body tooling has been updated also. For example the WalthersProto GP7s will have new hood contours to correct an error.
There is no direct this-equals-that brand map. Some former Proto 2000 models are now in WalthersProto (like the GP7 or SD9) and some are in WalthersMainline (like the SD60 and Alco PA). The lines also include new models (like the GEVO, GP35, or SD70ACe) and some that were created by Walthers before the acquisition (like the SW1). Also most of the models now come with the option of DCC and sound.
Terry
If you're sticking with DC, another alternative would be to use resistors to slow down the speedier one. It can be done if you're patient, may need considerable 'trial and error' to get it right...but a lot of people did that to get engines to run together before DCC made it easy.
Re: motors, you might be able to buy one from Walthers but probably would have better luck getting one from one of the several companies that make replacement motors, like A-Line or NWSL. You can find info on the Walthers website or catalogue, or go to their own websites. If you drop one of the companies an e-mail saying what you want to do, they probably will be able to recommend a good motor.
p.s. I had a LL 2-8-8-2 sitting on the shelf for many years because it quit running. Eventually found out the engine I had was from the one run that came with bad motors, which failed after a year or so of use. I replaced it with a motor from Micro-Mark that I got for about $25, works great now!
wjstix Generally Walthers Proto engines based on previous Life-Like Proto engines aren't exactly straight "reissues". The LL Proto engines did not have DCC plugs for example, so have to be hard-wired.
Generally Walthers Proto engines based on previous Life-Like Proto engines aren't exactly straight "reissues". The LL Proto engines did not have DCC plugs for example, so have to be hard-wired.
Some did, some didn't. While many of the early Proto 1000 and 2000 locos had to be hardwired, some later runs did have DCC plugs.
Gary
wjstix If you're sticking with DC
If you're sticking with DC
No, I have cut all ties with the DC world.
That makes sense, now that I think of it the LL 2-8-8-2 I mentioned earlier does have an eight-pin receptacle. Seems like the old E-units I pick up at RR flea markets all need to be hardwired...but maybe that's why I get such a good deal on them!!
khierUnfotunately most of sellers have no idea about such details.
So true. Even if they would show a clear, close up of the bottom of the loco, it helps distinguish what it is.
Have tried a good old search? There have been a couple of earlier threads in here about P2K PA's and repowering.
Maybe do a stall current and see just what you have. The thick gear grease also caused a lot of problems.
Mike.
My You Tube
The Micro Mark solution seems very nice. I must however repower both units. Anyway, the locos were cheap and there is no free lunch. I think this is the way I willl go if it fits of course.
khier wjstix If you're sticking with DC No, I have cut all ties with the DC world. Regards Walid
Don't really need to replace any motors then, just use the decoder's CVs to speed match the two engines.
garya wjstix Generally Walthers Proto engines based on previous Life-Like Proto engines aren't exactly straight "reissues". The LL Proto engines did not have DCC plugs for example, so have to be hard-wired. Some did, some didn't. While many of the early Proto 1000 and 2000 locos had to be hardwired, some later runs did have DCC plugs.
What do you mean by 'later'? Maybe the first couple like the BL-2 and the FA's with the rubber band driven fan didn't have DCC sockets, but every one I've ever worked on had either a socket or one of those "cut here, connect decoder wire to this hole" type boards. E units, SD-7/9, FA, GP-7, S1, DL-109, RDC.
As for the cracked gear problem, LL was giving out free replacements prior to the Walthers buyout. Since they included the wheels AND gears, and it was no questions asked, people were using it as a way to get free nickel silver wheels to replace Athearn sintered iron ones. That didn;t help LL's bottom line. Walthers required proof of purchase, which of course everyone who bought them at train shows on on eBay complained about. Forget the whole thing and just buy Athearn gears, I believe it is 60024.
If they made more I could use, I'd have more - I've had no issues with any of mine (1 GP7 had cracked gears, I just automatically repalced the gears in the other 3 as preventative maintenance). I have 4 GP7's (and had 2 more - and I actually have another spare that was poorly packed and shipped so it has a broken pilot on one end), 2 S1's, and 3 FA's. If I come across undecs of any of these (there are all the ones they released with unique numbers in as-delivered Reading paint), I wouldn't hesitate to buy more. 2 of the Geeps are my primary power for club shows, pulling a 30 car fully weighted train around the club layout for hours at a time - always run perfectly. One of my MDC RS3 kits has the original FA chassis for a drive, minus the fan and the rubber band drive, but the flywheel is groved for the band. I've run it, just the chassis since I haven't built the loco body yet, and it runs just fine too.
I guess I'm thinking mostly of the E-units, since I'm working on an old one now. I think you're right that the SDs and GPs had light boards, at least some with actual DCC receptacles. IIRC the "cut here" provision wasn't very clear as far as what to cut, so I usually just removed the board. Anyway, the LL E-units I've seen (I have six) all came with a squarish light board in the back, but with no provision to plug in a decoder that I can see.
I remove the boards anyway, even if they DO have DCC sockets. I repalce all the light bulbs with LEDs.
I've seen ones with the complex square board (the driver for the dual filament Mars light) WITH an 9 pin sicket. You can even move a wire to allow F1 to switch the Mars circuit on and off. I just bypassed the board and used the Mars effect in the decoder, with an LED.
wjstix Don't really need to replace any motors then, just use the decoder's CVs to speed match the two engines.
khierI agree if the speed is the only problem, but these slow motors from wha I understood draw more current than most of decoders can supply,
Quite true! I don't know if these motors found their way into other Life-Like locomotives but in my case half of the PAs on my roster, roughly two-dozen, had the high-amp draw motors. They looked identical from the outside but when doing a stall-test the current ran up to about three-and-a-half amps!
One thing about the original Life-Like and the "transition" to Walthers is that there was a huge amount of inventory involved.
Many of the Life-Like locomotives I bought after Walthers took posession simply had a walthers sticker slapped over the Life-Like emblem on the box. Later engines were marked "Life-Like by Walthers" and more recent ones drop Life-Like all together and are simply Walthers Proto. It didn't happen over night.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-Like
I still see LOTS of original Life-Like Baltimore stock, brand new in original boxes, when I go to train shows.
Maybe this huge inventory is one of the things that hastened their demise as a model railroad business in 2005.
Good luck, Ed
rrinker garya wjstix Generally Walthers Proto engines based on previous Life-Like Proto engines aren't exactly straight "reissues". The LL Proto engines did not have DCC plugs for example, so have to be hard-wired. Some did, some didn't. While many of the early Proto 1000 and 2000 locos had to be hardwired, some later runs did have DCC plugs. What do you mean by 'later'? Maybe the first couple like the BL-2 and the FA's with the rubber band driven fan didn't have DCC sockets, but every one I've ever worked on had either a socket or one of those "cut here, connect decoder wire to this hole" type boards. E units, SD-7/9, FA, GP-7, S1, DL-109, RDC.
I'd say "cut here, solder to this hole" is hardwired, as it's not a socket. A DCC decoder couldn't be plugged in, which is what I responded to. And "later," as in later runs did have sockets, even Proto 1000.
Thank you all dear fellows for the precious information and feedback.
Now I know what to expect and what to do with LL items: MicroMark or NorthWest repowering kit. Or even better: avoid completely.
You're passing up a lot of good models if you avoid LL entirely. The Geeps are far superior to the old Atlas Geeps, yet the Atlas ones run close to $100 on eBay, and you can get a Proto 2K for $40. Add in $2 worth of Athearn gears and it's good. Even the switchers, the S1's can be had for a song on ebay and they are excellent running locos, never had a cracked gear issue.The motor in them is as good as anything you'd find in a repower kit. Even the old FA chassis I have that is a direct Athearn BB clone, the motor is much better than the gold Athearn motor.
It was ONE brief run of the PAs that had high current motors, and at the time LL replaced them for free. No others have had that problem.
Randy, so you are saying I got the wrong loco made in the wrong time? OK, I will try to hunt another PA.
Just a thought - many early engines with green light boards used the lightboards for a constant lighting circuit. This meant that the first few volts of DC power applied to the engine bypassed the motor, and went to the lights. If you were careful, you could reduce power of a moving train just enough that the engine would stop, but the lights would stay on. Removing the lightboard and wiring it for straight DC often made the engine run much faster, as it wasn't draining off those first few volts. If you've already converted the engines to DCC, it won't affect it, but if you're just testing it on DC, it might be an issue?
In any case, I wouldn't avoid LL engines just because some early runs had a less efficient motor than later ones. The old LL Proto E-units and SD-7/9s that I have are great engines, and can often be found essentially new in the box at RR shows or flea markets for a fraction of what the new Walthers versions cost. To me, spending $50 for an engine and $20-30 for a new motor is a better deal than paying $200 for a new improved engine.
My first LLs were the Redbird subway train. I later bought another subway train, the green one, as a Walthers product. The only difference was that Walthers had added end gates to the shell. That saved me a bit of work, but it was purely cosmetic.
One of my subway motors died. I don't remember which one. I was able to get a replacement from Walthers. I got two, just in case.
I also have two GP-9s from the time when Walthers bought Life-Like. I think they say Life-Like on the bottom of the chassis. They are fine engines, still running well and looking great. I did have to replace the axles.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.