Randy, I was testing them in DC. How would I test them in DCC when one of them does not have a decoder? The decoder is the 123 thing... It will be replaced eventually in this one and the other will get an identical substitute. Then they will run in a consist. Shell removal was relatively easy, but the tiny grab irons/hand rails were a nightmare to handle.
Regards.
Walid.
Were you running them in consist? With which DCC system?
If it's NCE or MRC, then yes, this is the problem - Digitrax decoders when used in CV19 consists by default have BEMF disabled. There's been a few recent threads on this. If the run together when not in a consist but act up when in consist, the simple solution is to adjust the BEMF CV in the Digitrax decoder so it has the same setting in consist as well as not. Somewhere back in time, it was though BEMF in consists would make the locos 'fight' each other. Tish tosh, I have locos from different manufacturers with different decoders running together with no problems - two P2K with TCS combined with an Atlas with QSI. They run for hours at a time on the club layout with no issues.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
khierThe reluctant one is fitted with a Digitraxx decoder.
Did you try resetting the Digitrax decoder? Perhaps the previous owner had entered different speed curve CVs into it.
I have dozens of older Life-Like engines, many of those still using "vintage" Digitrax DH-121 and DH-123s in them. Eventually I'll weed them out and place more recent decoders in them, but for now, they run just fine.
Regards, Ed
Mystry resolved. The most logical yet the least probable cause one would think of. The reluctant one is fitted with a Digitraxx decoder.
Regards
Walid
Thanks for the information. However, I think the point is still unclear. If one starts later than the other because it simply draws more current then the CV adjustment you mentioned might work. But if this current is beyond the decoder capacity the decoder itself will be lost. I also wrote in a later post that both engines are probably identical (according to the road numbers). If this is confirmed, the problem then must lie in the mechanical part rather than the electric.
khier wjstix In any case, I wouldn't avoid LL engines just because some early runs had a less efficient motor than later ones. And how should I combine them when their motors have different characteristics?
wjstix In any case, I wouldn't avoid LL engines just because some early runs had a less efficient motor than later ones.
In any case, I wouldn't avoid LL engines just because some early runs had a less efficient motor than later ones.
And how should I combine them when their motors have different characteristics?
khierThe best thing is to finally find/take the time to remove the shells and see myself.
That would be my first step, and look for any visual differences.
If the motors are the same, I would do a stall test, to see which one draws the most amps.
Than I would completely clean the armatures on both.
Than I would remove the trucks, and clean out any old grease, as Randy and others have mentioned, replace with Labelle 106.
I'd run them both, with the shell off, to run in the new grease, and see how they compare.
If all of that didn't make any improvements, than I would consider a repower.
I think I would weigh the cost of a repower vs buying another loco, and hoping I got one with the better motor, which would be tuff from the auction sites, as most sellers don't know what they have, and they don't show decent pictures.
Mike.
My You Tube
And the confusion contnues....
I have been searching for the origins of the speed mis match between two apparently identical LL P2K Alco PA. The most probable theory was the different motors. Now I checked this post and realized Lehigh Valley PA were released only once by Life Like, and it was the third PA run.http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/244687/2726349.aspx?page=2Even worse, I checked the road numbers and discovered both have the same road number (I will print a number sticker later). So I have only two possibilities:
1- Indeed different motors and the shell was replaced.
2- Identical motors and there is another mchanical and/or electrical problem.
The best thing is to finally find/take the time to remove the shells and see myself.
Any suggestions?
wjstix To me, spending $50 for an engine and $20-30 for a new motor is a better deal than paying $200 for a new improved engine.
Here I tend to agree with you. I would also add I would rather get a basic generic engine and detail/paint myself. This adds much more to the hobby than running trains and introduce a sense of individalism. The only problem is time. Kitbashing, building and modifying are time intensive activities.
My first LLs were the Redbird subway train. I later bought another subway train, the green one, as a Walthers product. The only difference was that Walthers had added end gates to the shell. That saved me a bit of work, but it was purely cosmetic.
One of my subway motors died. I don't remember which one. I was able to get a replacement from Walthers. I got two, just in case.
I also have two GP-9s from the time when Walthers bought Life-Like. I think they say Life-Like on the bottom of the chassis. They are fine engines, still running well and looking great. I did have to replace the axles.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Just a thought - many early engines with green light boards used the lightboards for a constant lighting circuit. This meant that the first few volts of DC power applied to the engine bypassed the motor, and went to the lights. If you were careful, you could reduce power of a moving train just enough that the engine would stop, but the lights would stay on. Removing the lightboard and wiring it for straight DC often made the engine run much faster, as it wasn't draining off those first few volts. If you've already converted the engines to DCC, it won't affect it, but if you're just testing it on DC, it might be an issue?
In any case, I wouldn't avoid LL engines just because some early runs had a less efficient motor than later ones. The old LL Proto E-units and SD-7/9s that I have are great engines, and can often be found essentially new in the box at RR shows or flea markets for a fraction of what the new Walthers versions cost. To me, spending $50 for an engine and $20-30 for a new motor is a better deal than paying $200 for a new improved engine.
Randy, so you are saying I got the wrong loco made in the wrong time? OK, I will try to hunt another PA.
You're passing up a lot of good models if you avoid LL entirely. The Geeps are far superior to the old Atlas Geeps, yet the Atlas ones run close to $100 on eBay, and you can get a Proto 2K for $40. Add in $2 worth of Athearn gears and it's good. Even the switchers, the S1's can be had for a song on ebay and they are excellent running locos, never had a cracked gear issue.The motor in them is as good as anything you'd find in a repower kit. Even the old FA chassis I have that is a direct Athearn BB clone, the motor is much better than the gold Athearn motor.
It was ONE brief run of the PAs that had high current motors, and at the time LL replaced them for free. No others have had that problem.
Thank you all dear fellows for the precious information and feedback.
Now I know what to expect and what to do with LL items: MicroMark or NorthWest repowering kit. Or even better: avoid completely.
rrinker garya wjstix Generally Walthers Proto engines based on previous Life-Like Proto engines aren't exactly straight "reissues". The LL Proto engines did not have DCC plugs for example, so have to be hard-wired. Some did, some didn't. While many of the early Proto 1000 and 2000 locos had to be hardwired, some later runs did have DCC plugs. What do you mean by 'later'? Maybe the first couple like the BL-2 and the FA's with the rubber band driven fan didn't have DCC sockets, but every one I've ever worked on had either a socket or one of those "cut here, connect decoder wire to this hole" type boards. E units, SD-7/9, FA, GP-7, S1, DL-109, RDC.
garya wjstix Generally Walthers Proto engines based on previous Life-Like Proto engines aren't exactly straight "reissues". The LL Proto engines did not have DCC plugs for example, so have to be hard-wired. Some did, some didn't. While many of the early Proto 1000 and 2000 locos had to be hardwired, some later runs did have DCC plugs.
wjstix Generally Walthers Proto engines based on previous Life-Like Proto engines aren't exactly straight "reissues". The LL Proto engines did not have DCC plugs for example, so have to be hard-wired.
Generally Walthers Proto engines based on previous Life-Like Proto engines aren't exactly straight "reissues". The LL Proto engines did not have DCC plugs for example, so have to be hard-wired.
Some did, some didn't. While many of the early Proto 1000 and 2000 locos had to be hardwired, some later runs did have DCC plugs.
What do you mean by 'later'? Maybe the first couple like the BL-2 and the FA's with the rubber band driven fan didn't have DCC sockets, but every one I've ever worked on had either a socket or one of those "cut here, connect decoder wire to this hole" type boards. E units, SD-7/9, FA, GP-7, S1, DL-109, RDC.
I'd say "cut here, solder to this hole" is hardwired, as it's not a socket. A DCC decoder couldn't be plugged in, which is what I responded to. And "later," as in later runs did have sockets, even Proto 1000.
Gary
khierI agree if the speed is the only problem, but these slow motors from wha I understood draw more current than most of decoders can supply,
Quite true! I don't know if these motors found their way into other Life-Like locomotives but in my case half of the PAs on my roster, roughly two-dozen, had the high-amp draw motors. They looked identical from the outside but when doing a stall-test the current ran up to about three-and-a-half amps!
One thing about the original Life-Like and the "transition" to Walthers is that there was a huge amount of inventory involved.
Many of the Life-Like locomotives I bought after Walthers took posession simply had a walthers sticker slapped over the Life-Like emblem on the box. Later engines were marked "Life-Like by Walthers" and more recent ones drop Life-Like all together and are simply Walthers Proto. It didn't happen over night.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-Like
I still see LOTS of original Life-Like Baltimore stock, brand new in original boxes, when I go to train shows.
Maybe this huge inventory is one of the things that hastened their demise as a model railroad business in 2005.
Good luck, Ed
wjstix Don't really need to replace any motors then, just use the decoder's CVs to speed match the two engines.
Don't really need to replace any motors then, just use the decoder's CVs to speed match the two engines.
I remove the boards anyway, even if they DO have DCC sockets. I repalce all the light bulbs with LEDs.
I've seen ones with the complex square board (the driver for the dual filament Mars light) WITH an 9 pin sicket. You can even move a wire to allow F1 to switch the Mars circuit on and off. I just bypassed the board and used the Mars effect in the decoder, with an LED.
I guess I'm thinking mostly of the E-units, since I'm working on an old one now. I think you're right that the SDs and GPs had light boards, at least some with actual DCC receptacles. IIRC the "cut here" provision wasn't very clear as far as what to cut, so I usually just removed the board. Anyway, the LL E-units I've seen (I have six) all came with a squarish light board in the back, but with no provision to plug in a decoder that I can see.
As for the cracked gear problem, LL was giving out free replacements prior to the Walthers buyout. Since they included the wheels AND gears, and it was no questions asked, people were using it as a way to get free nickel silver wheels to replace Athearn sintered iron ones. That didn;t help LL's bottom line. Walthers required proof of purchase, which of course everyone who bought them at train shows on on eBay complained about. Forget the whole thing and just buy Athearn gears, I believe it is 60024.
If they made more I could use, I'd have more - I've had no issues with any of mine (1 GP7 had cracked gears, I just automatically repalced the gears in the other 3 as preventative maintenance). I have 4 GP7's (and had 2 more - and I actually have another spare that was poorly packed and shipped so it has a broken pilot on one end), 2 S1's, and 3 FA's. If I come across undecs of any of these (there are all the ones they released with unique numbers in as-delivered Reading paint), I wouldn't hesitate to buy more. 2 of the Geeps are my primary power for club shows, pulling a 30 car fully weighted train around the club layout for hours at a time - always run perfectly. One of my MDC RS3 kits has the original FA chassis for a drive, minus the fan and the rubber band drive, but the flywheel is groved for the band. I've run it, just the chassis since I haven't built the loco body yet, and it runs just fine too.
khier wjstix If you're sticking with DC No, I have cut all ties with the DC world. Regards Walid
wjstix If you're sticking with DC
If you're sticking with DC
No, I have cut all ties with the DC world.
The Micro Mark solution seems very nice. I must however repower both units. Anyway, the locos were cheap and there is no free lunch. I think this is the way I willl go if it fits of course.
khierUnfotunately most of sellers have no idea about such details.
So true. Even if they would show a clear, close up of the bottom of the loco, it helps distinguish what it is.
Have tried a good old search? There have been a couple of earlier threads in here about P2K PA's and repowering.
Maybe do a stall current and see just what you have. The thick gear grease also caused a lot of problems.
That makes sense, now that I think of it the LL 2-8-8-2 I mentioned earlier does have an eight-pin receptacle. Seems like the old E-units I pick up at RR flea markets all need to be hardwired...but maybe that's why I get such a good deal on them!!
If you're sticking with DC, another alternative would be to use resistors to slow down the speedier one. It can be done if you're patient, may need considerable 'trial and error' to get it right...but a lot of people did that to get engines to run together before DCC made it easy.
Re: motors, you might be able to buy one from Walthers but probably would have better luck getting one from one of the several companies that make replacement motors, like A-Line or NWSL. You can find info on the Walthers website or catalogue, or go to their own websites. If you drop one of the companies an e-mail saying what you want to do, they probably will be able to recommend a good motor.
p.s. I had a LL 2-8-8-2 sitting on the shelf for many years because it quit running. Eventually found out the engine I had was from the one run that came with bad motors, which failed after a year or so of use. I replaced it with a motor from Micro-Mark that I got for about $25, works great now!
wjstixGenerally Walthers Proto engines based on previous Life-Like Proto engines aren't exactly straight "reissues".
Stix has it right. Some current WalthersProto and WalthersMainline locomotives use some former Proto 1000 or 2000 parts, but current production WalthersMainline and WalthersProto locomotives have the WalthersProto drive, which shares no parts with the old P2K drive. In many cases the body tooling has been updated also. For example the WalthersProto GP7s will have new hood contours to correct an error.
There is no direct this-equals-that brand map. Some former Proto 2000 models are now in WalthersProto (like the GP7 or SD9) and some are in WalthersMainline (like the SD60 and Alco PA). The lines also include new models (like the GEVO, GP35, or SD70ACe) and some that were created by Walthers before the acquisition (like the SW1). Also most of the models now come with the option of DCC and sound.
Terry
mlehman The first was a high amp draw unit and could cause problem with many DCC decoders if they didn't have a high enough amp rating to handle it. The later runs had a much imporved motor with much reduced amp draw.
Mike,
I guess this is the most propable explanation. The "heavy" one jumps immediately when I remove the other. Buying a replacement locomotive may bring nothing if it belongs to the early, high amp run. Unfotunately most of sellers have no idea about such details. I guess a replacement motor is a better idea. Hopefully I can find it in Walthers catalogue.