The more that I think about this, the more I wonder why, as a model railroad hobbyist, I should feel any obligation or responsibility to financially support the NMRA.
This reminds me of my other passion - - - golf. As a member of a private country club, all members are somewhat pressured to support the USGA as well as various other organizations including caddy scholarships, local golf organizations, etc. I have to spend more in that regard for "dues" than the NMRA requires.
As I see it, the ones who really benefit from the NMRA and its standards are the manufacturers. So, IMHO, the manufacturers have the obligation and responsibility to support the NMRA, not me.
Rich
Alton Junction
andrechapelon$5.50/month is a lot of money
Allow me to use that so I can bring that $5.50 month in prospective..
WOW! That's cheaper then a artery clogging and fattening fast food meal.
That $5.50 can bring a lot of home and club layout visits as well as lasting friendships and needless to say its a lot healthier.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
howmus Me again..... A lot of talk about "Benefits". Most people won't use all of them and many could care less about any of these, but here is the list of what the NMRA considers to be a "Benefit" of membership. ... Heritage and Living legends Cars ... 73
Me again..... A lot of talk about "Benefits". Most people won't use all of them and many could care less about any of these, but here is the list of what the NMRA considers to be a "Benefit" of membership.
...
Heritage and Living legends Cars
73
Isn't it time this one was dropped. This program stopped several years ago and there was a fire sale to get rid of the remaining stock. Yet I still see this listed as a benefit. In fact this was the highlighted benefit in the latest RMC showing Whit Towers' ALP boxcar. But you can't get an ALP car any more or any of the others.
Enjoy
Paul
I was a member, too mank clicks, reminded me of high school! Standards used to be important but now things are changing, don't know many that use their weight guides anymore, their gauge is still valuble though. As far as information, they really lost me when I inquired about lifetime membership and never gave me the numbers, six months later they discontinued the program, note 6 months, at which time they said the program was no longer avalable. The real problem with the NMRA is they no longer have any control of the local groups (in fact there was talk of our reginal breaking away from the orginal orginization over certain disputes when I was a member). Last a lot of the things they offered are now found online and for free.
Well, let's see:
My thoughts:
1- The division I live in has zero events, zero people. (Some stupid fight, everyone got mad at everyone, and left. Seriously.) Nearest one in state (I was told I would have to go in state when I inquired.) is 2.5 hours away, and always on nights that I work.
2- I lost my good paying job earlier this year, and now, with new job, I truly could not afford an extra $70 to be a member. (To prove the point, I have allowed to expire all of my hobby related subscriptions and memberships I did have.)
3- The only "events" even close to me by any division is shows, open, usually, to the public, for an entry fee. (Sure, I will pay the membership fee, if it gets me in the door of these events for free, except there is not enough of them close enough by me to justify. I have not spent $70 on entry fees to these shows, in over the past 4 years combined. And, it does not, to the best of my knowledge, provide this as a benefit anyway. So it's a moot point.)
4- When other organizations have adopted this policy (or very similar) they have all gone away very shortly thereafter.
They don't want non-members getting in for free? Small entry fee, like all the shows open to the public, would work much better here, IMHO.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
The fellowship and assistance of over 18,000 members across the globe. (Every Division should have a Member Aid person who's job is to get answers to people.)
NMRA Online Archives
Kalmback Memorial Library
Achievement Program (AP)
Conventions (Regional and National)
Standards and Conformance
NMRA Magazine
Liability Inmsurance for Clubs
Liability Insurance for Meets and Shows
Pike Registry
Collection Insurance
Beginner's Guide
Modeling With the Masters
Clinic Slides, Tapes, and DVD's
Discounts and Advance Registration on New KML Books
Local Divisions
"Members Only" Company Store
NMRA Standards Guages & Turnout Templates
Annual NMRA Calendar
Howell Day Museum (future)
Just my 2¢
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
When I started reading this thread I though there was no way I'd join.
But now I may. I like the idea of maintaining standards.
This may be a tough sell though as i just lectured my wife about her shoe and makeup subscriptions.
T e d
I'm sympathetic, and I think the NMRA has done a lot for the hobby, particularly in the area of setting standards. I was an NMRA member for 2, maybe 3 years. And then I gave it up. It wasn't that I disliked it, or that I couldn't afford it, it was just that I didn't feel like the value it delivered was commensurate with the price. I wasn't attending conferences or shows, and I was a member of numerous online groups that didn't cost a penny, but put me in direct contact with some of the best practitioners in the hobby. I could send an email to the Colorado Midland Yahoo group if I had a prototype question, and crowd source the answer to folks like Mel McFarland, who wrote two books about the CM; I could go on the Yahoo HOn3 site and get advice on the finer points of kit building with a craft kit maker like Eric Bracher or an author like Boone Morrison. That's tough competition, but the world has changed.
A lot of businesses and organizations are struggling with the implications of this. I stopped subscribing to MR a few years back for similar reasons, but I changed my mind earlier this year. Why? Because, by opening the vault on everything they've ever done for less than $5 a month, they made the MR subscription a really good deal, and everything I've seen since then has convinced me that I was right (particularly that Furlow video last week - thanks, guys!). I think Kalmbach has adapted well to the changing world, and I only hope that the other institutions that support the hobby can do the same. I'm not particularly heartened by stories like the "three strikes" rule.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
selectorBut sitting in a general membership monthly gathering-and-talk to learn something, or to find out the direction the club is going, or to meet a friend and sit in for the last half of the meeting before going out to a pub.....that, to me, should be open. -Crandell
-Crandell
I agree with you 100%, Crandell, if you're talking about a public event, like the National Train Show on Saturday and Sunday (Friday afternoon is reserved for - OMG! - NMRA National Convention attendees, who must be - again, OMG! - NMRA members!).
But when you're talking about NMRA meets or conventions at any level, then you're by definition not talking about a public event.
You know, I'd like to attend Denver Broncos football games for free. But I can't. They won't let me in the stadium unless I buy a ticket (those narrow-minded sons-of-guns!). I have to pay to attend. If you want to attend NMRA functions (and a lot of them are a lot of fun, believe me!), then step up and pay (via your dues) to attend.
Please don't expect all us dues-paying members to subsidize the paticipation of non-members. If the benefits are not worth it, by all means don't join. But don't expect to get in free.
There are no doubt some who would like to join the NMRA who genuinely can't afford the cost. For them I am truly sorry, and I would be glad to help one or two of those folks with the cost of their dues. I expect I'm not alone in that. But that's not the same as "not worth the cost," and may be a subject for another time.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
rrinker What about all the manufacturers build scale models using NMRA standards for track width, wheel flanges, etc? Why just DCC manufacturers? Lenz released their patents to the NMRA for the free use of all.
in telecom, the manufacturers and operators support the developement of standards, not the users of their products and services.
i agree it's hard to see licensing track just because it's a specific gauge. But it makes sense that if manufacturers can't agree to a de-facto standard, they should support the organization that establishes the standards.
I've looked at the RPs for turnouts and I believe most turnouts are not built to those RPs and work just fine. There's a difference between recomended practices (RP) which don't have to be followed and a standard (e.g. gauge, DCC) which must.
I think NMRA licensing of DCC was a missed opportunity to fund a standards body. But I agree that the NMRA is less deserving of receiving a license fee if another body did the work and the NMRA didn't facilitate a discussion among all manufacturers for such a standard.
it's hard for me to see the benefits of the NMRA paid for by members dues.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
trwroute ATLANTIC CENTRAL If $60 a year is a lot of money to you, you are in the wrong hobby This is a dumb comment. $60 per year for membership is a lot of money. I wouldn't get that much return on my investment. So, to me it is a lot of money with very little return.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL If $60 a year is a lot of money to you, you are in the wrong hobby
If $60 a year is a lot of money to you, you are in the wrong hobby
This is a dumb comment. $60 per year for membership is a lot of money. I wouldn't get that much return on my investment. So, to me it is a lot of money with very little return.
$5.50/month is a lot of money (it's $66/year if you get the magazine, $44 if you don't)? That's about 18 cents/ day. Without the magazine, it 's about 12 cents/day.
I probably spend more money than that each year waiting for the water to get hot at the shower head.
EDIT: Apparently I'm a "victim" of premature posting as I decided to run the numbers and discovered that the above sentence is a bit hyperbolic. Actually, the cost is less than a tenth of that. Nonetheless 18 cents/day isn't going break the bank.
Andre
-
IRONROOSTER First, I have been an NMRA member since 1972. I really don't understand why people think that NMRA meetings (and conventions and other membership activities) should be open to the public. You want to participate, join... Paul
First, I have been an NMRA member since 1972.
I really don't understand why people think that NMRA meetings (and conventions and other membership activities) should be open to the public. You want to participate, join...
I agree, if a person wishes to participate, run for office, attend council/committee/board meetings or make submissions, borrow stuff, speak to the group or otherwise attempt to influence the various outcomes of the committee's direction, or attend the membership's Annual General Meeting where elections take place and the membership is invited to make comments or observations/suggestions for new direction, or attend ops sessions at a club railroad, that person should become a member. That goes almost without saying. But sitting in a general membership monthly gathering-and-talk to learn something, or to find out the direction the club is going, or to meet a friend and sit in for the last half of the meeting before going out to a pub.....that, to me, should be open.
gregc i'm sure many hobbyists enjoy the NMRA magazine, conventions and local events. I don't understand why a national organization is required to support such activities. If manufacturers paid NMRA a small license fee for every DCC product sold, modelers who use DCC would implicly be supporting the NMRA.
i'm sure many hobbyists enjoy the NMRA magazine, conventions and local events. I don't understand why a national organization is required to support such activities.
If manufacturers paid NMRA a small license fee for every DCC product sold, modelers who use DCC would implicly be supporting the NMRA.
What about all the manufacturers build scale models using NMRA standards for track width, wheel flanges, etc? Why just DCC manufacturers? Lenz released their patents to the NMRA for the free use of all.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Have fun with your trains
ndbprrSo one new standard since 1960. I rest my case.
Wrong! There have been many new standards and revised standards since then. Go look it up...
What Sheldon said above......
First off there is a lot of misinformation going on in this thread. This post (from me as the current Superintendent of a division of the NMRA) is an attempt to lend some facts to the discussion.
1. Membership costs: Basic full membership without the NMRA Magazine is $44 (US). Full membership with the Magazine (I always get it as it is an excellent publication) is $66. Family members (spouse or minor aged child) are $9 per year. They also have a Railpass Membership which can only be used once for $9.95 which gives a 6 month membership that includes the magazine.
2. The 3 visits rule is due to insurance contract. Any Division or Region that has "non-member" members (those who attend the activities of the Division or Region) will not be covered by the NMRA Insurance should a claim be processed and they are not in compliance. Why has this come up? because it has happened! You can't be a member of an organization without being a member. I am a 40 year veteran of the Boy Scouts of America. Their Insurance works the same way. Rules are you can't be a member of the Boy Scouts unless you are a member of the Boy Scouts. In both organizations membership means that you have to join the National Organization. Period! You can't be a member of a troop without being a card carrying member of the national BSA. Personally when I have my layout open for an NMRA Meet I sure want to be covered by the NMRA Insurance! I would be very quick should something happen to go after all the officers of the Division if I was not covered because they didn't follow the procedures. As the Superintendent of the Division I don't intend to end up being sued because I didn't follow the rules either! First thing they teach you at National Camp School Administration Section in the BSA is how to spell LIABILITY!
3. Those Divisions that have been following the 3 strike rule have not seen a loss of membership. They are the ones who have had a growth in membership. They also are the Divisions that have given real value to membership by the program they put on. Why should someone join when they can get it for free? I sure hope that I am providing a valuable program to the membership here in my Division.
4. If you want to see what the NMRA has done (and is still doing) with standards, look it up at: http://www.nmra.org/index-nmra-standards-and-recommended-practices.
The NMRA has just announced a new standard for electronic layout control called Layout Command Control (LCC) at the National Convention in Portland. This will work side by side with the DCC Standards.
4. The NMRA was started in 1935 by a group of hobbyists, manufacturers, and publishers with the idea that you should be able to run your BLI locomotives pulling Athearn cars, on Atlas tracks.... (yes, I know that those companies were not around back then, but hopefully you get the idea!)
The NMRA also lists RPs. Recomended Practices. Those are the type of things that we all use to make our layouts run better....
So... If you don't want to spend your $$$ to join the NMRA, don't. But don't expect that the NMRA is going to educate and entertain you for free either....
Just my 2¢.
ndbprrExplain to me what new standards the nmra has provided.
Even though I don't use it - DCC.
ndbprrWe are in an era of specificity in modeling with super detailed equipment based on rr diferences. We are no longer in an era of paint major rr lettering on marginal equipment. Modelers are much more discerning. I don't belong to nmra or nrhs. I am not interested in generic trains.
What does this have to do with track/wheel/power standards? or recoomendations for good operation like curves and turnout design?
Yes the NMRA did all those things decades ago, but without that the hobby would likely not be where it is.
Have you ever seen the original NMRA data sheets from the 1960's? They are full of prototype specific details for better modeling, technical info, prototype history/facts, general railroad knowledge (something generally lacking in a lot of posts on here) and much more - I still have and use my set from joining in 1969 - fills a 3" binder.
An effort is currently underway to redo all that and more online......
Sheldon
I just read this entire thread, and I still have no opinion, one way or another, about joining or not joining the NMRA.
If I recall correctly, there was a thread back a year or two ago (maybe a little longer) encouraging forum members to join the NMRA. I remained unconvinced as to the merits of membership, so I didn't join.
My guess is that many other forum members are as indifferent as I am about NMRA membership.
In this case, return on investment is strickly subjective. If you don't feel the NMRA offers any value fine, but $60 in this economy is pocket change, especially compared to the general costs in this hobby - $600 locomotives, $100 passenger cars, $60 RTR freight cars, $100 sound decoders for DCC, etc.
So would you re-join if it was $30? $10? From the sound of your post in the other thread on this topic, no you would not. So it's not really the money is it?
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
I am an NMRA member due to the standards and practices that help all of us enjoy the hobby. Those standards help all of us. So I continue to pay dues to support that aspect of the NMRA. Downside for me is there are few events nearby to attend in a reasonable manner.
That said, I disagree with many aspects of the current leadership that seems to be running more and more like a good ol boys club for the interests of the elite than for all. Sorry, but the sale of the headquarters should have been brought before the membership, not carried out in secret; the partnership with the California RR museum seems more a vanity project that benefits them more than NMRA members; and many of the rules during the last few years seem designed to be exclusive rather than inclusive.
jim
I really don't understand why people think that NMRA meetings (and conventions and other membership activities) should be open to the public. You want to participate, join. I think it's nice that the NMRA will let you come as a guest 3 times. (BTW I doubt anyone will notice it's your 4th time if you only come every 3 years or so). But really why should this be a problem, if you like coming then join.
As for speakers, presenters of clinics, after dinner talks etc. I wouldn't think this rule applies. Same for folks donating one of the convention prizes, etc.
As to whether it's worth it to join. Well that's up to you, but I admit the dues are a little steep at $66. I think the standards are a big benefit. And even though I get the benefit of them without joining, for me a major reason for being a member is to support that effort. Other benefits like the monthly magazine, discounts on the company store, and an occaisional division meeting round it out for me.
So while I wouldn't call it a "three strikes policy" - a PR goof if ever I saw one - I do think it is reasonable.
Seems to me that someone would need to keep track of all the visitor's names and the number of times they visit. Since I don't see any method of easily accomplishing this, the whole thing is a non-issue, is it not?
selector Our Winnipeg Centre of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada monthly meetings were open to the public. We got something near half of all our new applications for membership from 'drop-ins.' Some of those were eventual leaders in the Society provding a lot of energy, coheshion, and new ideas.
Our Winnipeg Centre of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada monthly meetings were open to the public. We got something near half of all our new applications for membership from 'drop-ins.' Some of those were eventual leaders in the Society provding a lot of energy, coheshion, and new ideas.
The Northern Virginia Astronomy Club was the same. Public could attend the monthly meeting and some of the star parties and special events (like an eclipse viewing or something), but the membership had closed observation events, equipment loans, a library, and so on that only members could use. Plus a big camping trip to West Virginia's dark skies and the Green Bank radio telescope.
A few radom thoughts on no particular side of this issue:
If $60 a year is a lot of money to you, you are in the wrong hobby.....
I have not thought much of NMRA leadership in the last few years, but having been a member since 1969, I feel the organization has value despite its faults.
I have never attended ANY NMRA function - I don't want to be involved in leading or running such an organization either - so I happily pay my dues in support of those who do.
The social side of the hobby is the lowest priority aspect of the hobby for me - I'm surely not taking a vacation to another city for a convention......
Others might not like the way I would want to run it if I was in charge - not being willing to get involved, I generally keep my opinions about its short comings to myself.
I belong because I think the Standards, RP's, Data Sheets, and other similar programs are important - even if they are not perfect.
I had signed up for, and once hoped to help with new Data Sheet program - time did not allow....
I was more than a little unhappy when the DC electrical Standards and RP's were "toyed with" to imbrace MTH and others.......long story I can tell some other time.....
But I will still pay my dues next time around in support of those willing to devote their time to the NMRA.
Some types of events need to be members only - is that not part of the point of any "club"?
It seems all these kinds of organizations have one thing in common: in exchange for money (dues), they give you information. 30+ years ago, this was a "business model" that might have been sustainable because detailed information on specific topics was so hard to come by, folks had no choice but to pay their dues to have access to that information. As a side benefit, they get the social interaction, etc that also come along with being members of the group.
But in the age of the Internet, everyone has a wealth of information at their immediate disposal - and most of it is free. Want to know what railroads operated in your area? Google it. Need to know how to weather a freight car? Look it up on YouTube. Need pictures of a specific C&NW locomotive for that modeling project? rrpicturearchives.net.
People have come to expect to get information for free. Never mind how much time, energy, and work is involved with producing that information and making it available for public consumption, right or wrong, the reality is people expect it to be available for no charge. If an organization has information they try to sell access to in the form of dues, I'd guess most people are willing to walk and look elsewhere. Historical societies might be able to get away with this more than others because they often have exclusive access to some pretty obscure information. But honestly, aside from the RPs and Standards (which I'm grateful for, BTW), what does the NMRA really have to offer that's not available for free on the Internet or elsewhere?
It does take resources (i.e. money) to run any club or organization. But I think the "pay to play" business model most clubs employ is quickly becoming obsolete. Time to start thinking outside the box if you want to stick around as an organization.
Dan Stokes
My other car is a tunnel motor