I belong to three rail/model rail organizations that are experiencing similar challenges: an aging and "not growing" membership, increasing costs of operation leading to membership being costly, and a sense that members are paying their dues to obtain what others seem either to get for free or do not regard as valuable enough to them to warrant joining. Those organizations are the National Railway Historical Society, the Chicago & North Western Historical Society, and the NMRA.
I am President of our local NRHA Chapter and we welcome the public to attend our meetings which mostly are slide/digital image shows. Why? We like to have a large audience for our excellent presenters. Persons can and do subscribe to our monthly newsletter without having to be dues paying members, because it has local rail information that they like. But the NRHS has made it clear that local Chapters may be providing so much value to non members that it is costing the NRHS dues paying membership, and I suspect they are correct. But there is very little appetite for playing hardball on the subject because right now it is not easy to point to the value of NRHS membership.
For the C&NWHS the top quality magazine it publishes for members, North Western Lines, is for sale at many hobby shops, but its online The Modeler magazine which is an excellent resource for model railroaders of any prototype interest, is available free on the C&NW Historical Society's website (check it out sometime). C&NWHS leadership is starting to question whether it should be free.
And many if not most NMRA Divisions I know of have long opened some or all of their meetings to the public (quite apart from train shows which are intended to introduce the hobby to the public) as part of their own outreach and educational function that makes them 501(c)(3) organizations.
That will presumably soon be changing.
The NMRA has for some years had a policy that said you need to be a member to take advantage of NMRA activities and services. Makes sense, except that meetings with clinics or little swap meets have typically not been viewed as that kind of activity or service that needs membership. Now the NMRA has articulated its position very clearly and is using a bit of a big stick to enforce it -- the denial of liability insurance coverage to NMRA divisions or regions that disobey the directive. Here is a portion of how the policy is newly articulated by the NMRA leadership:
Visitors are allowed three visits to an NMRA meeting IN THEIR LIFETIME. If they don’t join by their third visit, they cannot attend any more meetings. A lot of the questions we’ve been getting are from members trying to over-think the policy, worrying about this or that exception and making up complicated what‐ifs. The policy does not apply to members’ spouses who come along to the meetings so that they can go to dinner fterwards. It does not apply to non-member caregivers who aren’t modelers, but who provide a ride to a member who cannot drive himself. It does not apply to events that are organized for the general public, like mall shows, swap meets, beginner clinic series, and the like, nor does it apply to things like joint meetings with another non-NMRA group or to family picnics or outings.
This has been causing a fair amount of difficulty if not angst for some in the NMRA. While it is recognized that there are many freeloaders who openly state they can see no reason to join the NMRA when they can attend for free the only aspect of the organization that interests them -- meetings, clinics, bus trips -- it is also thought that without those non members there might not be enough of a critical mass to even hold those events. It is also thought that it might legitimately take more than three visits in a lifetime to NMRA events to see the value of membership, particularly if the clinics are (as they sometimes can be) "dogs." Or if you used up your 3 precious visits when you were a kid (and we do everything we can to get kids to come to our meetings) and now you are an adult, maybe even retired, revisiting the hobby.
Some have even gone so far as to predict that this new and rigid articulation of the policy represents the NMRA in a death spiral because the response won't be to join, it will be to not attend. That might be melodramatic, but I would agree in general that it is quite obvious from the vast majority of model railroaders who are NOT members of the NMRA that the virtues of membership are not, shall we say, self evident, even to very serious and busy modelers. Many years ago Hal Carstens went so far as to say that the real need for the NMRA was when scale model railroading was very very difficult, and that need ended when scale model railroading became easy. So it is not a need but a -- what? A luxury?
And some NMRA leadership has been ambiguous about whether even those who GIVE clinics to NMRA groups have to pass the three strikes or you're out standard. At least one NMRA functionary says they do. Our local NMRA Division has had many clinics by a guy who works for the FRA, about how to reflect FRA rules and standards in our model railroads. Invaluable information - and are we in a position to dictate to the guy that he pony up for NMRA membership so he can continue to do this great favor of giving us these (free - he is not paid) clinics? We have also been told that our layout tours should not include the homes of non-NMRA members. That puts us in the awkward position of dictating terms to someone who thinks, correctly, that they are doing US the favor, not the other way around. Some of our tours have been to superb tinplate layouts. For what reason would or should they join the NMRA, which does not even want them as members?
My own opinion is that the NMRA leadership should be concentrating on reasons for people to WANT to join, not looking for available leverage to try to force people to join. But then this is not the only area where my thinking differs sharply from current NMRA leadership.
To quote the current NMRA President, those are my thoughts. What are yours? The difference is, I am actually interested in learning your thoughts ....
Dave Nelson (NMRA member since 1981)
Firstly, I am not a NMRA member. I live way too far away from any sanctioned activities to participate. 3+ hour drive for me to attend meetings or events. And the magazine and website are not worth $70 a year to me.
However, I will say this: I am a member of several other professional and hobby related groups. None of which allow non-members to attend general meetings and gatherings. I can understand where the NMRA is coming from on this. They did a cost/benefit annalysis of potential new members vs. lost income and made a choice.
I will start with this: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. But if you provide no path to the water, the horse will surely die of thirst.
In this day and age of multiple competition for hobby time and dollars, if someone see an interesting event but then in the fine print it says sorry, members only, and the membership fee approaches the $100 range, more often than not the person will just forget it and not attend. However, when the even is open to all, and the sponsor group includes a table explaining the benefits of membership, at least some of the non-members who show up will join. Maybe not a lot, but some is better than none. Totally closing events to non-members is a sure-fire way to guarantee that replacement members for those who are aging and become no longer able to participate will not appear.
The one group I belong to is fairly open. Guest are welcome at monthly meetings. Most other public-facing things we do are a trin show we sponsor (everyone pays admission there) and setting up our modular display layout in various venues - some, like the RR Museum of PA, charge admission, we don't get a cut, but we are allowed to have our donation box and merchandise sales table). Membership if very modest, it was until recently just $25, which I've wondered for a while if is high enough to actually cover the benefits you get. Some things are member-only - we have a rather extensive archive of materials but only members are allowed to access the archives. I've always renewed my membership at one of the higher levels rather than the basic, mainly because I want to support the organization and I didn't think the basic membership covered the costs well enough.
We do offer information on both the prototype and models on our web site for anyone to see. None of the publications are free to non-members though. We don't have a model reference publication though like some groups, just a monthly meeting newsletter and the (well, we try) quarterly magazine, which is available for single issue purchase by non-members. We do have a museum opoen to the public for a modest admission, with both real and model exhibits, including locos and rolling stock in various states of preservation. Members and non members can shop our online store, or the museum store, and we usually have a sales table at all local train shows - members do get a discount on books though.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
You make the benefits free to all and then call people freeloaders for taking the freebies. Other than standardization of track and wheels I regard the NMRA like some labor unions, and political parties as an unnecessary organization. Now I am going to duck down and watch it hit the fan.
Charlie
Bureaucracy at its finest - aka organizational suicide.
I was a member of the NMRA, twice, for a total of about 18 years. Since the NMRA and I have interests which have diverged over the years I have never physically attended an NMRA-sponsored function. Nevertheless, I can see where a novice model railroader might live where attendance is easy, and wants to reduce the slope of the learning curve and/or see other people's work. It seems that this new policy is novice-hostile; "Decide NOW, or else!"
Someone should suggest a bit of re-thinking. People who give clinics or provide information should be exempt. Persons who wish to attend but not join might be asked to ante up a small surcharge on their ticket, or pay a small admission where NMRA members get in free. Also, three times in a lifetime is absurd. Three times in a calendar year I could see.
Seems to me that this policy, as-is, has the potential to be the NMRA's death rattle. I really hope that wiser heads will prevail.
Chuck (Ex-NMRA member modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Have fun with your trains
charlie9 You make the benefits free to all and then call people freeloaders for taking the freebies. Other than standardization of track and wheels I regard the NMRA like some labor unions, and political parties as an unnecessary organization. Now I am going to duck down and watch it hit the fan. Charlie
No need to duck, you hit the track spike squarely on the head!
My membership expires tomorrow. I've already used the savings to join the Norfolk and Western Historical Society and the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society. Two organizations that reflect the direction I'm moving in the hobby. The NMRA seems to have overlooked that in the past few years the competetion for the hobby dollar has shifted. I can attend a craftsman show and the Amherst show for a fraction of what the National Convention costs.
Our Winnipeg Centre of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada monthly meetings were open to the public. We got something near half of all our new applications for membership from 'drop-ins.' Some of those were eventual leaders in the Society provding a lot of energy, coheshion, and new ideas.
The NMRA has an explanation of the policy, which isn't new, but 8 years old.
http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/memberservices/three_strikes_policy_explained.pdf
It seems all these kinds of organizations have one thing in common: in exchange for money (dues), they give you information. 30+ years ago, this was a "business model" that might have been sustainable because detailed information on specific topics was so hard to come by, folks had no choice but to pay their dues to have access to that information. As a side benefit, they get the social interaction, etc that also come along with being members of the group.
But in the age of the Internet, everyone has a wealth of information at their immediate disposal - and most of it is free. Want to know what railroads operated in your area? Google it. Need to know how to weather a freight car? Look it up on YouTube. Need pictures of a specific C&NW locomotive for that modeling project? rrpicturearchives.net.
People have come to expect to get information for free. Never mind how much time, energy, and work is involved with producing that information and making it available for public consumption, right or wrong, the reality is people expect it to be available for no charge. If an organization has information they try to sell access to in the form of dues, I'd guess most people are willing to walk and look elsewhere. Historical societies might be able to get away with this more than others because they often have exclusive access to some pretty obscure information. But honestly, aside from the RPs and Standards (which I'm grateful for, BTW), what does the NMRA really have to offer that's not available for free on the Internet or elsewhere?
It does take resources (i.e. money) to run any club or organization. But I think the "pay to play" business model most clubs employ is quickly becoming obsolete. Time to start thinking outside the box if you want to stick around as an organization.
Dan Stokes
My other car is a tunnel motor
A few radom thoughts on no particular side of this issue:
If $60 a year is a lot of money to you, you are in the wrong hobby.....
I have not thought much of NMRA leadership in the last few years, but having been a member since 1969, I feel the organization has value despite its faults.
I have never attended ANY NMRA function - I don't want to be involved in leading or running such an organization either - so I happily pay my dues in support of those who do.
The social side of the hobby is the lowest priority aspect of the hobby for me - I'm surely not taking a vacation to another city for a convention......
Others might not like the way I would want to run it if I was in charge - not being willing to get involved, I generally keep my opinions about its short comings to myself.
I belong because I think the Standards, RP's, Data Sheets, and other similar programs are important - even if they are not perfect.
I had signed up for, and once hoped to help with new Data Sheet program - time did not allow....
I was more than a little unhappy when the DC electrical Standards and RP's were "toyed with" to imbrace MTH and others.......long story I can tell some other time.....
But I will still pay my dues next time around in support of those willing to devote their time to the NMRA.
Some types of events need to be members only - is that not part of the point of any "club"?
Sheldon
selector Our Winnipeg Centre of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada monthly meetings were open to the public. We got something near half of all our new applications for membership from 'drop-ins.' Some of those were eventual leaders in the Society provding a lot of energy, coheshion, and new ideas.
The Northern Virginia Astronomy Club was the same. Public could attend the monthly meeting and some of the star parties and special events (like an eclipse viewing or something), but the membership had closed observation events, equipment loans, a library, and so on that only members could use. Plus a big camping trip to West Virginia's dark skies and the Green Bank radio telescope.
Seems to me that someone would need to keep track of all the visitor's names and the number of times they visit. Since I don't see any method of easily accomplishing this, the whole thing is a non-issue, is it not?
First, I have been an NMRA member since 1972.
I really don't understand why people think that NMRA meetings (and conventions and other membership activities) should be open to the public. You want to participate, join. I think it's nice that the NMRA will let you come as a guest 3 times. (BTW I doubt anyone will notice it's your 4th time if you only come every 3 years or so). But really why should this be a problem, if you like coming then join.
As for speakers, presenters of clinics, after dinner talks etc. I wouldn't think this rule applies. Same for folks donating one of the convention prizes, etc.
As to whether it's worth it to join. Well that's up to you, but I admit the dues are a little steep at $66. I think the standards are a big benefit. And even though I get the benefit of them without joining, for me a major reason for being a member is to support that effort. Other benefits like the monthly magazine, discounts on the company store, and an occaisional division meeting round it out for me.
So while I wouldn't call it a "three strikes policy" - a PR goof if ever I saw one - I do think it is reasonable.
Enjoy
Paul
I am an NMRA member due to the standards and practices that help all of us enjoy the hobby. Those standards help all of us. So I continue to pay dues to support that aspect of the NMRA. Downside for me is there are few events nearby to attend in a reasonable manner.
That said, I disagree with many aspects of the current leadership that seems to be running more and more like a good ol boys club for the interests of the elite than for all. Sorry, but the sale of the headquarters should have been brought before the membership, not carried out in secret; the partnership with the California RR museum seems more a vanity project that benefits them more than NMRA members; and many of the rules during the last few years seem designed to be exclusive rather than inclusive.
jim
ATLANTIC CENTRAL If $60 a year is a lot of money to you, you are in the wrong hobby
If $60 a year is a lot of money to you, you are in the wrong hobby
This is a dumb comment. $60 per year for membership is a lot of money. I wouldn't get that much return on my investment. So, to me it is a lot of money with very little return.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
trwroute ATLANTIC CENTRAL If $60 a year is a lot of money to you, you are in the wrong hobby This is a dumb comment. $60 per year for membership is a lot of money. I wouldn't get that much return on my investment. So, to me it is a lot of money with very little return.
In this case, return on investment is strickly subjective. If you don't feel the NMRA offers any value fine, but $60 in this economy is pocket change, especially compared to the general costs in this hobby - $600 locomotives, $100 passenger cars, $60 RTR freight cars, $100 sound decoders for DCC, etc.
So would you re-join if it was $30? $10? From the sound of your post in the other thread on this topic, no you would not. So it's not really the money is it?
I just read this entire thread, and I still have no opinion, one way or another, about joining or not joining the NMRA.
If I recall correctly, there was a thread back a year or two ago (maybe a little longer) encouraging forum members to join the NMRA. I remained unconvinced as to the merits of membership, so I didn't join.
My guess is that many other forum members are as indifferent as I am about NMRA membership.
Rich
Alton Junction
ndbprrExplain to me what new standards the nmra has provided.
Even though I don't use it - DCC.
ndbprrWe are in an era of specificity in modeling with super detailed equipment based on rr diferences. We are no longer in an era of paint major rr lettering on marginal equipment. Modelers are much more discerning. I don't belong to nmra or nrhs. I am not interested in generic trains.
What does this have to do with track/wheel/power standards? or recoomendations for good operation like curves and turnout design?
Yes the NMRA did all those things decades ago, but without that the hobby would likely not be where it is.
Have you ever seen the original NMRA data sheets from the 1960's? They are full of prototype specific details for better modeling, technical info, prototype history/facts, general railroad knowledge (something generally lacking in a lot of posts on here) and much more - I still have and use my set from joining in 1969 - fills a 3" binder.
An effort is currently underway to redo all that and more online......
What Sheldon said above......
First off there is a lot of misinformation going on in this thread. This post (from me as the current Superintendent of a division of the NMRA) is an attempt to lend some facts to the discussion.
1. Membership costs: Basic full membership without the NMRA Magazine is $44 (US). Full membership with the Magazine (I always get it as it is an excellent publication) is $66. Family members (spouse or minor aged child) are $9 per year. They also have a Railpass Membership which can only be used once for $9.95 which gives a 6 month membership that includes the magazine.
2. The 3 visits rule is due to insurance contract. Any Division or Region that has "non-member" members (those who attend the activities of the Division or Region) will not be covered by the NMRA Insurance should a claim be processed and they are not in compliance. Why has this come up? because it has happened! You can't be a member of an organization without being a member. I am a 40 year veteran of the Boy Scouts of America. Their Insurance works the same way. Rules are you can't be a member of the Boy Scouts unless you are a member of the Boy Scouts. In both organizations membership means that you have to join the National Organization. Period! You can't be a member of a troop without being a card carrying member of the national BSA. Personally when I have my layout open for an NMRA Meet I sure want to be covered by the NMRA Insurance! I would be very quick should something happen to go after all the officers of the Division if I was not covered because they didn't follow the procedures. As the Superintendent of the Division I don't intend to end up being sued because I didn't follow the rules either! First thing they teach you at National Camp School Administration Section in the BSA is how to spell LIABILITY!
3. Those Divisions that have been following the 3 strike rule have not seen a loss of membership. They are the ones who have had a growth in membership. They also are the Divisions that have given real value to membership by the program they put on. Why should someone join when they can get it for free? I sure hope that I am providing a valuable program to the membership here in my Division.
4. If you want to see what the NMRA has done (and is still doing) with standards, look it up at: http://www.nmra.org/index-nmra-standards-and-recommended-practices.
The NMRA has just announced a new standard for electronic layout control called Layout Command Control (LCC) at the National Convention in Portland. This will work side by side with the DCC Standards.
4. The NMRA was started in 1935 by a group of hobbyists, manufacturers, and publishers with the idea that you should be able to run your BLI locomotives pulling Athearn cars, on Atlas tracks.... (yes, I know that those companies were not around back then, but hopefully you get the idea!)
The NMRA also lists RPs. Recomended Practices. Those are the type of things that we all use to make our layouts run better....
So... If you don't want to spend your $$$ to join the NMRA, don't. But don't expect that the NMRA is going to educate and entertain you for free either....
Just my 2¢.
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
ndbprrSo one new standard since 1960. I rest my case.
Wrong! There have been many new standards and revised standards since then. Go look it up...
i'm sure many hobbyists enjoy the NMRA magazine, conventions and local events. I don't understand why a national organization is required to support such activities.
If manufacturers paid NMRA a small license fee for every DCC product sold, modelers who use DCC would implicly be supporting the NMRA.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc i'm sure many hobbyists enjoy the NMRA magazine, conventions and local events. I don't understand why a national organization is required to support such activities. If manufacturers paid NMRA a small license fee for every DCC product sold, modelers who use DCC would implicly be supporting the NMRA.
What about all the manufacturers build scale models using NMRA standards for track width, wheel flanges, etc? Why just DCC manufacturers? Lenz released their patents to the NMRA for the free use of all.
-
IRONROOSTER First, I have been an NMRA member since 1972. I really don't understand why people think that NMRA meetings (and conventions and other membership activities) should be open to the public. You want to participate, join... Paul
I really don't understand why people think that NMRA meetings (and conventions and other membership activities) should be open to the public. You want to participate, join...
I agree, if a person wishes to participate, run for office, attend council/committee/board meetings or make submissions, borrow stuff, speak to the group or otherwise attempt to influence the various outcomes of the committee's direction, or attend the membership's Annual General Meeting where elections take place and the membership is invited to make comments or observations/suggestions for new direction, or attend ops sessions at a club railroad, that person should become a member. That goes almost without saying. But sitting in a general membership monthly gathering-and-talk to learn something, or to find out the direction the club is going, or to meet a friend and sit in for the last half of the meeting before going out to a pub.....that, to me, should be open.
-Crandell
$5.50/month is a lot of money (it's $66/year if you get the magazine, $44 if you don't)? That's about 18 cents/ day. Without the magazine, it 's about 12 cents/day.
I probably spend more money than that each year waiting for the water to get hot at the shower head.
EDIT: Apparently I'm a "victim" of premature posting as I decided to run the numbers and discovered that the above sentence is a bit hyperbolic. Actually, the cost is less than a tenth of that. Nonetheless 18 cents/day isn't going break the bank.
Andre
rrinker What about all the manufacturers build scale models using NMRA standards for track width, wheel flanges, etc? Why just DCC manufacturers? Lenz released their patents to the NMRA for the free use of all.
in telecom, the manufacturers and operators support the developement of standards, not the users of their products and services.
i agree it's hard to see licensing track just because it's a specific gauge. But it makes sense that if manufacturers can't agree to a de-facto standard, they should support the organization that establishes the standards.
I've looked at the RPs for turnouts and I believe most turnouts are not built to those RPs and work just fine. There's a difference between recomended practices (RP) which don't have to be followed and a standard (e.g. gauge, DCC) which must.
I think NMRA licensing of DCC was a missed opportunity to fund a standards body. But I agree that the NMRA is less deserving of receiving a license fee if another body did the work and the NMRA didn't facilitate a discussion among all manufacturers for such a standard.
it's hard for me to see the benefits of the NMRA paid for by members dues.