One of the wealthiest private business owners in America once said:
"every time someone, some where, gets something for nothing, someone, some where, does something for nothing - how much can you afford to do for nothing?"
Many seem to want the benifits of the NMRA, past and present efforts, for nothing.
Similar to the false ideas about value that generally exist in this hobby - that value is only driven by the market. Value is FIRST driven by the "cost to produce" that sets the bottom value assuming there is any demand at all.
If that demand will not support the cost to produce, then the product or service goes away. If the NMRA cannot support its expenses, it will go away.........
Allowing non members continued free/open access to things others pay to support devalues those things. If that devaluation goes below the cost to produce........
Still happily paying my dues for over 40 years, never been to a meeting/convention, don't really like that sort of thing, won't travel just to do that sort of thing.........
Sheldon
Whether NMRA membership is, by itself, worth the money strikes me as perhaps being a topic for another thread. This thread's original topic is contentious enough on its own.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
"I would not want to join any organization that would have me". Groucho Marx
I was a member twice. Not for me! I prefer to spend my money where I get a bigger and more enjoyable return for that investment like the various RR historical societies. I don't get to attend the continuos Enemaray conventions and there's no model activity in my area. The RRHS provide great information comparatively.
I know........I KNOW...........the NMRA got all the manufacturers in line and working in a common direction back in the day and that was a truly wonderful and valuable undertaking. We're all grateful for that. I'm personally tired of the NMRA crutch of pointing out all the great things done in the past by the Enemaray. But should we join and continue pouring money down a bottomless well in gratitude to guys that are mostly deceased and what they did many, many years ago? Guilt tactics to squeeze everyone's dwindling hobby dollars to me.
ANYWAY.......my big question is this...... obviously the NMRA has been having issues with a declining membership and subsequent decline in funds so why devote precious money, time and resources to tracking all these horrible moochers for life? Who will mind the database to further discriminate against these 3 time losers? Seems like a counterproductive system to me. Will they brand them at the door? Will there be a "wanted" poster book at the registration tables?
Childish, trivial undertaking! This should really boost sagging membership!
Just my 2¢.
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
At the national level, the NMRA is focused mainly on the big convention and train show. They do not devote many resources to promotion of membership, leaving that to the regions and divisions.
I'm a member and handle the membership chair for my division. My division meets six times a year, plus we put on an annual train show. Our meetings are open to the public, and I can't recall anyone attending more than twice without joining the division.The vast majority of our new members join because they want to be in the division, or join a 100% NMRA club in our area.
The NMRA's policy is reasonable. If you want to attend the divisional/regional events regularly, then join. $44.00 a year is pretty cheap compared to many other organizations' dues.
If everybody is thinking alike, then nobody is really thinking.
http://photobucket.com/tandarailroad/
P&Slocal The NMRA also deals with a small niche group and they could just as easily shoot themselves in the foot. When I lived in Pennsylvania, I had met some of the Division officers for the very same Division (Allegheny Plateau) that Chris and someone else had mentioned above. When you meet people and walk away with the impression that they are a bunch of egotistical, arrogant jerks; what would make you WANT to join their organization? Chris had asked a question on here about a month ago about the NMRA and his experience with the secretivity of a meeting in the same Division. Really, it is a huge secret where the meeting is! It is a bunch of model railroaders! Many of the members will have to change their attitudes if they want to draw others to the organization. [language edited by moderator]
The NMRA also deals with a small niche group and they could just as easily shoot themselves in the foot. When I lived in Pennsylvania, I had met some of the Division officers for the very same Division (Allegheny Plateau) that Chris and someone else had mentioned above. When you meet people and walk away with the impression that they are a bunch of egotistical, arrogant jerks; what would make you WANT to join their organization? Chris had asked a question on here about a month ago about the NMRA and his experience with the secretivity of a meeting in the same Division. Really, it is a huge secret where the meeting is! It is a bunch of model railroaders! Many of the members will have to change their attitudes if they want to draw others to the organization.
This is refreshing to hear/read. I was being led to believe that I was the only one that shared this opinion. This has been my argument with Mr Getz. I tried to assist in re-activating the local division of the Niagara Frontier, but when I requested the membership roster, I was told I couldn't have it because I wasn't an officer. Well the local division was (still is) inactive!
Allegheny Plateau...your assestment is so spot on! I suspect it took some prodding from the NMRA General Counsel to get them to actually post the dates and addresses of where their monthly meetings were being held.
Now you are splitting hairs. Do you join the Cleveland Clinic as an organization that looks out for the interests of your hobby? Does you annual dues you pay to join the Cleveland Clinic pay the salaries of the people you mention? CC is actually an academic medical institution that claims non-profit status because it is ACADEMIC.
Robert H. Shilling II
NittanyLionProfitability has little or nothing to do with an organization's desire to pay people.
As an example, the non-profit Cleveland Clinic, a world-class health organization, pays it's CEO over $2.3 million and there are over a dozen top tier employees paid over one million. Revenue runs around ten billion a year.
NittanyLionYou'd never attract a volunteer force large enough to do that.
And I would want to know that my heart surgeon is reasonably compensated
Ed
P&Slocal First off, I am not a "joiner" of organizations that have paid officers and/or staff and still claim a non profit status.
First off, I am not a "joiner" of organizations that have paid officers and/or staff and still claim a non profit status.
That's a pretty narrow view. Profitability has little or nothing to do with an organization's desire to pay people.
Back in my temping days, I worked for a very large national non-profit. My job was to handle the paperwork that came in with the donations, distribute it to the data entry clerks, and then file the paperwork in the file room. Their primary fundraising season was March to September, but processing all of the donations they received required a staff of about 45 working 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year. You'd never attract a volunteer force large enough to do that.
My couple of bucks.............I've been in the hobby since 1941 (that is correct, I am that old, even though I was 3 when I began) I have been a member several times from the days when membership was single digit. I found the organzation to be quite helpful, genuine, and well worth the membership fee even thougn it is ten times higher than when I first joined......but what the hell isn't? Many times I dropped out, mainly because I had limited spare time....and that was being spent on building trains and layouts. I most likely will again join as I believe strongly in NMRA's mission and since my pike is almost complete, I'll have time for other functions such as NMRA meets and whatevers.
Here is my critique.........The hobby is competing with so many things now a days, that attracting new folks is quite tough. I'd like to see NMRA spend more time promoting the hobby rather than servicing its members. We already play with our trains!!
So much could be done.....TV specials and programs. Just check out the dross on the History channel, and try to tell me that a well scripted program on model trains would not be more interesting than catching gators or cutting timber.
How about articles published in magazines such as AARP, various teen magazines, and even National Geographic and more.....airline magazines!!
Have a presence at major Model train shows and events. (Being the once founder and chief promoter of the Great Scale Model Train Show aka Timonium show, for years I'd offer free space and then some to local the NMRA chapter and even national.........nary a response!)
How about billboards? Crazy as this may seem, I think this would work well and space is available quite reasonably.
There is so much more, but I'm afraid I may be getting off message. Perhaps a new thread on this subject would be nice.
HZ
First off, I am not a "joiner" of organizations that have paid officers and/or staff and still claim a non profit status. I am not a member of the NMRA....or the NRA for that matter. I just did a little search and came up with the NMRA tax papers for 2013. They claimed to have taken in over 3 million dollars, but show that they spent 1.7 million of that. So where did the other 1.3 million go? Pretty good for a non profit. They showed they paid out $208,000 in salaries. Doesn't sound like much, but they claim that the Treasurer works the most hours at 10 hours a week. Anywhooooo....
One of my other hobbies in colonial reenactment and blackpowder shooting. A number of years ago abunch of guys that built guns and powder horns and other accoutrements got together and decided that they should form an artisan group and the Contemporary Longrifle Association (CLA) was born. The CLA started out by offering a membership for around $20. A number of artisans across the US and Canada joined the group. The CLA hosted small events where the average person who was not a member could show up and pay a small fee to look at original weapons and accoutrements and the latest reproductions of originals and you were able to purchase items at the shows. The small regional shows were well attended. So the CLA decided to have a large National Show in Lexington, KY...the heart of Daniel Boone land. Joe Public could attend the show and pay a $20 fee and get in to the show. As the show grew, the officers decided to push the artisan aspect and emphasize the weapons and accoutrements as art. Now the weapons are collected by art collectors and prices have gotten outrageous. A flintlock that would have cost about $1500 is now selling for $5000 or more. I saw one that they wanted $16000 for!!!! Anyway, the annual show in Kentucky is in August, a number of guys traveled from several states away to get to the show. They got to the doors and were told they owed $100 before they could get in. They turned around and drove back home. it seems the officers decided that if you paid the $20 gate fee last year, that that was your initial membership dues and NOT a gate fee. They put all those people that attended last years shows on their membership rolls and if they showed up this year they owed $100 before they let them in. In a small niche community, word travels fast. I would venture to say the CLA just shot themselves in the foot. Several of the guys I know who were part of the original members of the group are outraged and have vowed to leave the group.
[language edited by moderator]
It is a reasonable rule. Easy to enforce too. Memberships are handled at the corporate level, and every region and division is supplied with a membership list.
Organizations have bylaws to govern their structure and operations. If the requirement of holding office is to be a member in good standing, anyone not in good standing would be relieved of their position.
By attending their meetings you agree to, and should respect the rules. As the explanation of the policy states, anyone who comes to three meetings and doesn't join, won't anyway.
The policy is designed to protect the NMRA from liability, so freeloaders shouldn't be tolerated. How many other organized groups allow outsiders to attend whenever they want, while everyone else has to pay?
BMMECNYC JOHN BRUCE III I'm still puzzled at how the NMRA has enforced, or will enforce this, reasonable or not. There was an issue several years ago in which NMRA divisional and regional officers were not paying their NMRA dues, and the organization apparently had a big puzzle in figuring out how to enforce that very reasonable policy. At the time, they asked local members to turn their officers in if they had knowledge that they hadn't paid their dues. So how can anyone in the NMRA know who's paid up at an event or not, if they don't know who among the guys at the head table is paid up? Debates over the usefulness of the org aside, what assurance does anyone have that their act is together enough to say who's a member when they walk in the door? A lot would presumably have to change before they could say. Each member receives a card in the mail with their membership number and expiration date of membership. Members could be required to produce said card or a local database could be created to list the active membership. It is an interesting problem.
JOHN BRUCE III I'm still puzzled at how the NMRA has enforced, or will enforce this, reasonable or not. There was an issue several years ago in which NMRA divisional and regional officers were not paying their NMRA dues, and the organization apparently had a big puzzle in figuring out how to enforce that very reasonable policy. At the time, they asked local members to turn their officers in if they had knowledge that they hadn't paid their dues. So how can anyone in the NMRA know who's paid up at an event or not, if they don't know who among the guys at the head table is paid up? Debates over the usefulness of the org aside, what assurance does anyone have that their act is together enough to say who's a member when they walk in the door? A lot would presumably have to change before they could say.
I'm still puzzled at how the NMRA has enforced, or will enforce this, reasonable or not. There was an issue several years ago in which NMRA divisional and regional officers were not paying their NMRA dues, and the organization apparently had a big puzzle in figuring out how to enforce that very reasonable policy. At the time, they asked local members to turn their officers in if they had knowledge that they hadn't paid their dues. So how can anyone in the NMRA know who's paid up at an event or not, if they don't know who among the guys at the head table is paid up?
Debates over the usefulness of the org aside, what assurance does anyone have that their act is together enough to say who's a member when they walk in the door? A lot would presumably have to change before they could say.
Each member receives a card in the mail with their membership number and expiration date of membership. Members could be required to produce said card or a local database could be created to list the active membership. It is an interesting problem.
I think the national organization provides a list to the regions/divisions of the members in their area.
It used to be that joining a division and region were separate from joining the national (although you were supposed to belong to national). But a few years ago, the NMRA changed so that joining the national automatically meant you were member of the region and division for the area where you resided (although not every place is part of a division).
I suspect the 3 visits rule will be mostly enforced with those who regularly show up. I doubt that if you show up for 3 visits this year and then don't come back again for 4 or 5 years anyone will catch on.
Enjoy
Paul
I was a NMRA member until dropping out of the hobby for many years. Now that I am once again modeling I looked into again joining the NMRA. YIKES! the dues are a lot more but so is everything else nowdays. OK, checked into local meetings and/or clubs. ZERO. Annual regional meetings. Not even in the U.S., in Canada! Website regional updates. Way over a year since last posting.
I like the standards NMRA has developed, for the most part. But for this region fagidaboutit! Yea, I know, what about me, what doI get out of it. Not much in my opinion. Not worth the dues. NMRA meetings, conventions, workshops? Nice but I'm not going to chase all over North America to attend them.
Am in a local group that has dues that are cheap enough to afford and the slick publicatio I get is more than worth the $20.00 annual dues, plus access to the layout anytime. That's a little over 5 pennies a day. No comparison and I only have to travel a few miles to get there.
Once again the NMRA has contribulated a lot to the hobby, but have gotten like some unions, in it for themselves and dang you if you don't follow our rules. I am not anti union and have worked both sides of the label. The non-union shop was better in all ways, but that is not the point of discussion here. Just comparing.
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
Like Chris and Rick I live in the Niagara Frontier Region with the local division called the International Division. The area encompasses parts of Erie County, Niagara County and the Province of Ontario, Canada. Unfortunately, the ID only meets twice a year, once in the fall and once in the spring, both in Canada. I just wish they would meet on the US side once in a while as they did many years ago.
The few times I traveled to Canada for a local meet I enjoyed the layout tours. If they came to the U.S. I would gladly open up my layout for a tour.
My local model railroad club (not an NMRA club) also has similar rules reguarding attending meetings events (and incidentally similar dues) for the same reasons as described in earlier posts. Our insurance will not cover non-members in the event of some sort of accident that may occur at a membership event.
I decided to join the NMRA so that I could attend the 2014 National convention and train show in Cleveland. I was curious about what the convention had to offer. Some clinics are better than others, but I feel that I got my money's worth out of it. Same with this years convention. Its not for everyone, but if you want benefits of membership, you have to be a member.
I'll close with this thought:
Would you expect a modular model railroad club to allow you to run your newly bought locomotive on a club layout at a show all day with out getting membership dues from you? Test run, maybe, but tie up track and time without being a paying member: No. Thats not fair to the people who payed for membership and built the modules.
My verdict: the NMRA's policy is reasonable.
If $70 is nothing to you, more power to you, but please do not poo-poo people who express concern that it is a lot. By the time my meager Social Security check covers my rent and utilities, I have $135 a month to live on. $70 may be only $5.50 a month, but it comes all at once. Which month should I live on $65? I can buy a piece of balsa wood or a tube of glue, but $600 locos are far from standard in my world. Banging out a piece of rolling stock from wood and pieces of tin can hammered to shape is rewarding craftsmanship, moreso than a $600 E8, even if I would love to have it. The only reason I can afford a subscription here is that someone buys it for me as a gift each year.
ndbprrSo the standards are the bible for modlers and manufacturers. Explain the standard that justifies big boys on 22" radius track. Or the clearance on diesels and passenger cars on small radius track. How about the greatest effort. The X2F coupler when serious modelers use Kadees and not much else. I don't recall that standard Either the standards are not being used by both modelers and manufactuters or we all have 48" curves and #12 turnouts. Guess I missed the memo since I don't belong.
from S-1
That your HO Big Boy runs on a 22" curve is up to the manufacturer. The standards are to make sure that it runs on everyone's 22" HO track.
ndbprr,Really? You have been here 13 years with 6000+ posts and you don't know how the Standards and Recommended Practices relate to our hobby?
For starters, the Standards and RP's are not enforceable. It's not like the NMRA can sue any manufacturer (or hobbyist) and force them to follow the S & RP's. They only need to follow them to get the NMRA C&I "football" emblem, but few manufacturers apply for one.
There is no "...standard that justifies big boys on 22" radius track." That's purely a matter of choice in both the manufacturer for making such a thing possible and the hobbyist for trying to do so. All the S & RP's can do is say if you try to run a Big Boy on a 22"R curve, then you need X amount of clearance. That said Big Boy needs to have it's wheels set Y amount apart. That said Big Boy needs to have the center of the coupler mount at Z amount off the rail head. And so on. There's nothing in the S & RP that will ever "justify" any modeling decision. All they can say is that if you want to do A, you need to do B to be compliant.
The X2F horn hook was never an NMRA Standard or RP. From what I understand, it failed to get final approval (all for the best, IMHO). All the NMRA Standards and RP's I have copies of only mention coupler position (centered, height, etc.)...except for dummy couplers in RP21.2. The dummies are described in detail, but that's about it.
Paul A. Cutler III
Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument.
The "three times and you are out" rule has everything to do with insurance coverage and tax rules.
How many people here contributed cash to JMRI and their legal fund? If they had lost that case JMRI would be, worst case, history, or a piece of software you would have to pay for because someone demanded patent fees. How many would be willing to pay $40 or more for software that was once free?
The NMRA has an interest in defeating patent trolls, because they would result in increased prices or reduced features based on a patent of dubious value. Defending your interests costs money and time.
NMRA Standards evolve, and they also mean you don't have to worry about a manufacturer demanding payment to use that standard. DCC was designed to avoid infringing on any patents Lenz had, thus preventing a sudden demand for payment for their use.
Adelie So, do you think MTH started producing locomotives with decoders that work on DCC because of the NMRA standard, or because they figured out DCS was not exactly taking over the world and they were unnecesarily limiting the marketing of their products by not being compartible with DCC?
So, do you think MTH started producing locomotives with decoders that work on DCC because of the NMRA standard, or because they figured out DCS was not exactly taking over the world and they were unnecesarily limiting the marketing of their products by not being compartible with DCC?
Both. I think they added DCC capability to sell more. But without the standard there would have been no need. They would have been another proprietary command control system among many, all non compatible and all competing for market share on an equal basis.
What's interesting is that their protosound 3 is in their 3 rail O gauge locomotives and I think eventually Lionel will add DCC compatibility to their Legacy system. I think DCC will become the norm in the Toy Train Market. In my case not having to buy either DCS or Legacy to get command control for my 3 rail trains is big plus and why I will be looking at MTH not Lionel for future 3 rail locomotives.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Hi Ray,
Indeed we have met in the past. I did indeed drive 150+ miles and pay for a hotel to attend one of your meets. And a fine day I had! I applaud your division's effort in being one of the outstanding division in the NMRA. I happen to work in a job that allows me the time and disposable income to be able to attend meets in other divisions. This spring I participated in CNY's OPTUD weekend. So I do have an issue with paying the NMRA my membership fee and having to invest more money to participate in NMRA events.
And I really see no reason why the forum members that are on the fence about the NMRA aren't aware that I've been waiting for 5 years for a resolution of a NMRA problem. The NMRA is expecting the members to be the nuts and bolts of the organization but are unwilling, or at the very least, dragging their feet, coming up with a resolution to what happened. As I said in other posts...I don't dislike the time I've been a member of the NMRA. If you're reading this post and are on the fence, I encourage you to try the Rail-Pass membership and attend as many local events as you can and make your own decision! Look at the various newsletters from the division that are out there and you can see that there are some the provide excellent programs!
Ricky W, all I will say, is don't waste your time or gas money. You can send me a message if you want the bloody details!